Replacement of Cam belts

[Black-Cat]

I went into the dealer yesterday to price up a service and they mentioned the cambelt should be changed at 4 years or 60000 miles! My 05 Vrs has only just clicked over 22k!

Needless to say it's booked in for a change in a couple of weeks (payday)

I just don't want to risk it!

[Clunkclick]

The reason I'm being cautious in complying with this requirement is that, as I'm a low mileage wallah, only doing 9000 miles last year and I am on, like many others, a limited budget, £300 + VAT represents more than 10 % of my annual total running costs for the vehicle. Ok that cost is apportioned over the next four years, but it still has to be paid now.

I am more than certain that, in this situation, my need for that £300 is greater than that of the VAG group maciavelian, middle class, jobsworths, bottom-shiners that sit in either Chessington or Milton Keynes assisting Gordon Brown's "quantative easing" mission by issuing these dictats (On apparently, scappy bits of paper and at odds with extant advice to the rest of the world)

Having owned and serviced other vehicles, I know what condition the belts and running gear were in when I inspected and/or replaced them. For instance, the 1981 year Golf "N" model I had went on to 72,000 miles and 1995, without problem, before it went to the scappies (Major body work failure), still sporting the the original belt.

I am finding it hard to believe that in the 28 years that have passed since then, that the likes of Continental, who manufacture the full kits, belts, rollers and tensioners, will be outputing materials of inferior quality to 1981. So the only conclusion must be that if failure of these belts is a widespread issue (And I would like to know the percentage of engines that suffer this problem, anybody ?), then their is a design fault with the belt mechanism with these engines. In which case its a VAG/Skoda liability and probably a DOT recall job, on safety grounds And, if so why hasn't this advice been issued to VAG customers in the rest of the World ?

Again, I'd say inspect at 40,000 and only replace if in the opionion of the qualified mechanic (That's what you are paying for with a main dealer) they need replacing.

End of story

Nick

[moley]

I can understand your reluctance to part with £300 to have the cambelt replaced, but the consequences of the belt braking will be far more expensive. You will get no warning of a belt going until it happens, I had a tensioner brake up on a diesel mondeo a few years back. First I heard a strange noise from the engine and as I was pulling onto the hardshoulder the engine stopped, the belt had jumped on the teeth and then stripped...bye bye camshaft and valves.

Put it another way do you buy holiday insurance and if so have you ever claimed? I always buy travel insurance, but I have never had to use it, but the day I don't buy it will be the day I need it.

[Neily03]

:rofl: at this thread!! I really hope your engine fails. :thumbup:

[Kandy]

I would say that categorically, yes many of today's car parts are inferior to 1981. They are built down to a price. Minimal usage of material quantities/quality to get past the warranty period usually!

Cambelt failure patterns in Australia/USA/GB will be markedly different because of the different driving patterns and weather conditions.

Skoda's official advice will naturally have to be on the side of caution.

If I keep my car I won't change the cambelt at 4 years because of the very low mileage, but I will check everything regularly. I wouldn't push it past 6 years though.

If it's a balance of cost/risk that you are comfortable with, then fine.

[AndyPandy]

Are you going to remove the items to check them regularly?. I wonder how you are going to check the items as fitted when the belt cannot be flexed , the tentioner , and idlers cannot be checked for wear ,and free play?. Just taking the cover off, and looking will only confirm ,the belt still goes around the pulleys (which you already know because the engine runs OK) ,and most of the teeth are still there!

[Clunkclick]

Inspection in situ Haynes manual says every 20,000 after passing 60K. In the past a high candle power inspection lamp, if necessary a magnifying panel, plugs out, tensioner (Presumably spring loaded), if necessary retracted back with wire (Re-cycled coat hanger will do), crank engine using socket on crankshaft pulley bolt head - used to work for me. How difficult is that - 20 mins work tops i.e. £25 at current workshop prices

A diminuition of standards of manufacture would, to me, seem unlikely. We've seen the introduction of quality standards en mass across the world since the late 1980s. The endurance (MTBF) of most components and supplies, take engine oil for instance, have IMHO improved over this period. Why should cambelt kits be the exception.

So we would see a 3 year replacement cycle in Australia and the U.S. because of the rougher conditions and wider range of temperatures - recall the problems they had over there with modern oils and the Passat (Subject of class action law suits) ?

More likely that there is a design flaw with the belt system employed by this engines which VAG are trying to avoid liability for by selling everybody the idea that early belt changes are necessary for all.

Of course, if the cam belt kits were made in China . . . . . .

Nick

Edited 14 February, 2009 by Clunkclick

[Kandy]

Noise/play/cracks/tension issues will be evident long before total failure - instant catastrophic failure is if anything more likely to occur with brand new components!And it used to be/may still be official Skoda advice to check rather than replace at the specified mileage/time interval.

[rum4mo]

I think that the MTBF will have been calculated/proven/demonstrated by bench testing engines over a given duty cycle - probably the same duty cycle that has meant most of us are not able to run petrol engines using the variable servicing strategy ie we end up not using the car as intended by the manufacturers (their fault not ours). We, the owners of these cars are the initial losers when we fail foul of these weak/poor designs, followed eventually by the manufacturers whos engines are shown to be prone to early failure. VAG have seem to have taken the precaution to warn the owners of any affected cars and so maybe save a bit of credibility - while costing us the owners more money than we would like. Stating that the belt manufacturers supply all the idlers/pulleys/tensioners is only usually only part true, what normally happens is that the car manufacturers will tend to try to cut costs and their procurement people will try to get groups of parts suppliers to start supplying them with part assembled kits - this is certainly true in the case of cam belts - originally they will use the original "other" suppliers parts - then probably drift off to cheaper sources - but for us it still remains VAG's problem as we should not care that they out-source any supplies. On the subject of not being able to afford typical running costs of a modern car - well that is up to the individual, I'd reckon that most of us end up, over the period of ownership of a modern car "doing okay" - as someone once pointed out on another forum, "if you can't really afford to properly run a car then probably you should not be trying to do so!" - cruel but true! The general way things have panned out, running a modern car has not become a lot cheaper than running a modern car 10 or 20 years ago, I'm sure that someone can put a typical figure on it based on individual cars, ages,mileage - year by year - but it will not look very good, though it may make some people twice before becoming a car owner.

[Tech1e]

More likely that there is a design flaw with the belt system employed by this engines which VAG are trying to avoid liability for by selling everybody the idea that early belt changes are necessary for all.

Yep its called a fixed tensioner.

Works fine when the engine is under load. But when the engine is on over run it aint ideal. this is why the latter VW engines have an oval shaped crank pulley gear.

[Soot1e]

Quote----

POST 2

I changed my cambelt on my 90bhp AHU tdi at 9 years and 75,000 miles. The original cambelt and tensioner were in very good condition with no cracking/damage or roughness detectable.

Interestingly Continental who supply a lot of the cambelts to VW claim their belts are a lifetime item (on their website)

They can indeed last a lot longer than the Main Dealer suggests but unless you carefully examine the belt you are never quiet sure how good it is.

I'm afraid the "Lifetime" bit is a bit misleading as Lifetime in Manufacturing talk is 8 years. Ask any warranty co. But you are right in saying that the Dealers want a few more paid visits from us earlier than VAG previously suggested.

As for your £300. It includes the Cam belt & tensioner only. the water pump is usually £30-40 extra. Includes labour in both cases.

[Clunkclick]

. . . . . .VAG have seem to have taken the precaution to warn the owners of any affected cars and so maybe save a bit of credibility - while costing us the owners more money than we would like. Stating that the belt manufacturers supply all the idlers/pulleys/tensioners is only usually only part true, what normally happens is that the car manufacturers will tend to try to cut costs and their procurement people will try to get groups of parts suppliers to start supplying them with part assembled kits - this is certainly true in the case of cam belts - originally they will use the original "other" suppliers parts - then probably drift off to cheaper sources - but for us it still remains VAG's problem as we should not care that they out-source any supplies . . .

It was a VAG manufacturing decision to substitute plastic tensioner rollers for metal ones and their design decision to use a fixed tensioner (Both, cost saving in manufacture), so the problem is entirely of their making. If something goes wrong as a result of them not correctly exercising their professional expertise as car manufacturers, then its their liability. Why should owners be conned into picking-up this cost ?

Its up to VAG to decide how they would pick-up this costs i.e either on a prevantative basis or only at time of failure.

At the prices currently mentioned it takes the cost of three or four preventative treatments( @£300) to equate to the cost of repair of a total top-end failure (£1200), so unless the failure rate was greater than at least 25 % of the produced stock of vehicles, it would pay VAG to repair on failure. That's a pretty high failure rate, and I would suspect that its not as high as that - any comments on experienced failure rates ?

VAG did exactly the same cost cutting exercise on the clutch mechanism on the base model Golf that I owned - for those of you long-enough in the tooth to recall the 1981 "N" model, it was fitted with an "Innovative" design of clutch cable which in combination with underspecified capacity engine waterways conspired, through overheating and consequent stiffening of the clutch diaphram spring to place an excessive load on the drivers side of the passenger compartment bulkhead resulting in its failure - very often when driving. In those days they were honest enough, or perhaps the Ministry of Transport and consumer activists were effective enough, to compel them to acknowledge the problem and meet the cost and issue a repair kit.

OHC belt driven designs have been around in quantity since the '60s. Most operating without problem. Even the Alfa Sud I had, even though, as a model, it had generic problems with everything else (Bodywork, electrics, carburetion,hydaulics), had a totally reliable belt system on the flat-four boxer engine. The boxer engine was low down in the engine compartment and the belts, which were foward facing and open to the elements (No cover), picked -up all the **** in Christendom and still functioned faultlessly.

Even the belt drive on my Electrolux washing machine, turning the 30lb of a fully loaded drum, survived 18 years of twice weekly usuage before the washer was condemned due to a broken winding in the motor.

Are we saying that Skoda fit drive belt mechanisms that are significantly less relaible than that of a washing machine ?

Nick

Edited 16 February, 2009 by DGW
Quote fixed.

[Soot1e]

Nick, Cost cutting on car parts is normal with all the manufacturers, not just reserved for the VAG, I understand your frustration but what are we to do? It would nice to have a Toyota engine (chain driven cams) in our cars for reliability, VAG build quality, handling by Lotus etc. but that ain't gonna happen. We all choose our cars on the overall package. After all this discussion are you going to change your cambelt? Bernie.

[cav-mad-gav]

Glad i found this thread as mine is now upto 4years old and the same thing about cam belt change has come up in my mind.

A few points i hav though, every older style car myself or my family have owned have all been 70k+ miles and a cambelt change has never been an issue.

However having worked on toyota production lines i know first hand of the manufacturing tactics to dupe owners out of hard earned money!

So I can fully imagine that the belt may need to be replaced at 4 years or 60k due to a less reliable system or parts but then I also know that there is a good chance it is all a 'con' just to keep revenue coming in.

Either way i;'ll hang tight for a fewe weeks and keep an eye on this.

Can I just ask though, and by all mean reply in a pm to keep this thread on topic if you want, but what is this about metal and plastic water pump things??

Thansk all

[Clunkclick]

So I can fully imagine that the belt may need to be replaced at 4 years or 60k due to a less reliable system or parts but then I also know that there is a good chance it is all a 'con' just to keep revenue coming in.

Thansk all

I find it hard to believe that the production line varies the cambelt fitting (i.e. metal tensioners for plastic ones) according to the country of sale. So why the difference in advice as between USA/Australia and UK, as indicated in earlier posts ?

Still no response to the question I asked earlier regarding the failure rate. Surely, someone in the trade must have a rough idea of what proportion of Fab's have failed out of a notional 100% and whether its confined to a particular type or date of build?

Failing that there must be some relevant figures around for the equivalent Polo. Anyone ?

Nick

[cav-mad-gav]

I must admit a may have 'proof' read the thread lol

So is it officle that the 4 year advice is NOT giving in USA/EU etc?

[dfullb]

Blimey

Are you still running on that worn out Set of Tensioners & Belt !!! Before long you will be on your 2nd belt change interval ..

Dean

[Clunkclick]

I must admit a may have 'proof' read the thread lol

So is it officle that the 4 year advice is NOT giving in USA/EU etc?

One of the posters above referred to this. Its claimed that he had official dealings with Skoda UK some time ago regarding the revised UK requirement (Which he apparently disputes). But its not clear whether the information on the US/Australia is official.

But, I have to say, even less convincing was the official response of Skoda UK Customer Services, who when I asked, by E-Mail via their official website enquiry service, for advice on this matter, decided, at first instance, not to reply in like, but phoned me at work instead ! Only when I insisted was an E-mail confirmation provided (Not on headed paper, so it can be disowned, if properly challenged at a later date) and the confirmation lacked the implementation date of the revised schedule.

I beginning to suspect that, given the defeaning response from the trade members who frequent this site regarding my request for an informed indication of the scale and incidence of this problem, that its all a bit of a con.

IMHO the issue of thrown belts and trashed rollers may have arisen with those bods who have modded the higher power variant's of the Fabia. This might explain why Skoda UK is playing it so cagey.

I wouldn't hardly have thought that Skoda UK intended to prey on the large number of OAPs who have invested in Fabs as their retirement vehicle, by extracting money from them on flase pretenses.

My car's the repmobile saloon. So I would expect to have less problems with this as their reputation would soon get trashed if they p*ssed their commercial customers around.

Nick

[Clunkclick]

40,000 mile service now done (£400 +. . included replacement of rear brake pads). The dealer was not happy to do the service without including the timing belt. . Because I wasn't happy to do this, I was asked to sign a disclaimer. I refused saying that exclusions cause generally have no value in law and, I believe this was noted on the computerised service record (For the benefit of Skoda UK? ). Further, I said that it was my belief that whilst customer service at Skoda were stating that the cam belt should be replaced at four years (And there was a notice on the service desk actually stating this) all the information I had access to regarding.service schedules i.e. in the vehicle handbook, Haynes manual and a well known vehicle data service all said the same thing, inspect at 60,000 miles (Which is five years use at average mileage of 12,000) and every 20,000 thereafter to 120,000 and renewal. Why haven't Skoda contacted customers direct on such a major change to the service regime ?

They offered to show me the Elsa data, but I declined as I didn't think it was the official Skoda info source. Can someone correct me on this ?

My expressed view is that if I consented to a cambelt change which wasn't supported by the Skoda Service Schedule availble to me, then if something went wrong with the new kit, Skoda could come back and say why did you have it done? So, if you don't get it done your're in the wrong and if you do and it fails your liable.

In the absence of sight of the official service schedules they've got you over a barrel.

So I suggested that the service tech inspect the belt and report on this service and then take it from there. They were happy to do this.

Guess what, the report came back that the belt needs replacing.

But it appears that this appproach isn't consistent across the VAG group. The VAG practice for the equivalent polo engine is a little different. The video below states that a 2000 vintage polo was in for its first belt changed at 72,000 - the video was posted by Follet in 2007 !

Of course that could have been tardiness on the part of the owner.

In addition to recommended belt change the service report also recommended changing the front discs and pads before the next service, so it looks as if I'm in for another 4 hours of labour and £550 plus bill.

So I was contemplating doing the jobs myself.

Is changing the belt on this car a home mechanic operation ? The procedural info available to me makes it look a little problematic - It looks like you need a couple of special tools to align and lock the cams, partially drop and support the engine whilst raising the shell and remove the crankshaft pulley :eek: The book says 2hrs 40 hmmm ?

Anyone ?

Nick

Edited 19 February, 2009 by Clunkclick

[moley]

If the dealer reported that the belt was OK and did not need replacing, then a week later the belt broke would you complain to the dealer?

[Clunkclick]

If the dealer reported that the belt was OK and did not need replacing, then a week later the belt broke would you complain to the dealer?

Yes, you probably would. But if they were a main dealer, because of their specialism, training and proficiency, you wouldn't expect those circumstances to occur on 100% of the work they undertook and the the odd occasions that it did occur you would be confident that they had suitable indemnity insurance.

I fully understand that people are more litiguous nowadays and the dealers would as professionals, err on the side of caution when issuing advice, but if the current pragmatic approach to replacing these belts is the appropriate one, why don't Skoda ammend their Official Service Schedules and advise owners accordingly. All the current situtaion is doing is creating bad feeling.

I think its worth writing to Skoda requesting that they meet part of the £300 + cost of this. Because with my mileage averaging 6,000 a year, on the current enforced 4 year replacement regime I'm going to need £1200 (At today's prices) worth of belt replacement before I hit the stated replacement interval of 120,000 miles i.e. replacements at 40,000, 64,000, 88,000 and 112,000. That'll be eye watering for the low-mileage pensioners.

Looks like Jeremy Clarkson will have to eat his words about american build -quality - Dodge 2.4 litre, cam-belt replacement interval 100,000 miles.

Oh dear ! I just noticed on my service bill that I've been charged for "Oil PD 5w/40" - I presume that' s deisel lubricating oil and mine is a 16V petrol. Lets just hope that its a clerical error.

Nick

Edited 19 February, 2009 by Clunkclick

[cav-mad-gav]

Do you have to take the engine out the bottom then?

I was quoted today for the following:

Cambelt and all the stuff

4th year annal service (filters etc etc)

Brake Fluid change (every 2 years?)

and MOT

Total, £550, to be fair, it wasn't as steep as i thought but then i also thinkign down the road of diy (although not the cam belt)

Like yourself Nick i've yet to find anyone or any reported cases or cam belt failer at 4 years old but then judging from the replys on here it would seem everyone has had it changed at four years.

[Clunkclick]

Do you have to take the engine out the bottom then?

I was quoted today for the following:

Cambelt and all the stuff

4th year annal service (filters etc etc)

Brake Fluid change (every 2 years?)

and MOT

Total, £550, to be fair, it wasn't as steep as i thought but then i also thinkign down the road of diy (although not the cam belt)

Like yourself Nick i've yet to find anyone or any reported cases or cam belt failer at 4 years old but then judging from the replys on here it would seem everyone has had it changed at four years.

According to procedure stated on the well known vehicle data source, you have to remove the right-hand engine mounting (steady ?) and lower the RHS of the engine within the limit of movement onto a support and then raise the bodywork to obtain access to the crankshaft end of the belt - This seems to be the same as the procedure for the equivalent engined Polo in the Follet video I posted above.

Dealer (Lady on reception phone) advised me that cam belt was approx £300.

Building-up the charge using the well known vehicle data source, the bill, worst case, might look as follows:-

Labour

Remove/replace timing belt 1.30 Hrs

Remove/replace tensioner 1.10 Hrs

2.40hrs @ say £70 ph (Ex. VAT)

Parts

Belt kit (including rollers) . . . .£70 retail (Ex. VAT)

VAT @ 15% £35.70

Total (Inc VAT) £273.70

But I would speculate that dealers get the kits for well less than the retail price.

My 6th service, which included brake fluid, filters, plugs, pollen filter, oil, MOT, cost, excluding labour and parts for the brakes, £354.93 (Inc VAT).

So if your quote is fully inclusive, then looks as if you got a good deal.

My London location may explain the difference.

Nick

Edited 19 February, 2009 by Clunkclick

[Tech1e]

They offered to show me the Elsa data, but I declined as I didn't think it was the official Skoda info source. Can someone correct me on this ?

I will.

ELSA is the only information we should use. ELSAPro is updated daily and carries all current service sheets and schedules, workshop manuals, current flow diagrams, warranty procedures and vehicle information inc recalls and bulletins. Any other paperwork is now defunct and should be disposed of.

[Clunkclick]

Is ELSA a VG product ? If so does it replace or supplement ERWIN ?

Nick