early results - mixing 2-stroke oil into derv

[Kaiserb_uk]

Blimey, first Millers, now 2 stroke oil...

I might give this a go but when someone suggests adding red wine to diesel I may have to draw the line.

[Conshine]

Blimey, first Millers, now 2 stroke oil...

I might give this a go but when someone suggests adding red wine to diesel I may have to draw the line.

Read a few more posts and decided it's deffo a goer at the weekend!!

Note: What is Mr Grumpys skip? :confused:

[Kaiserb_uk]

Note: What is Mr Grumpys skip? :confused:

Er, Shifty's old Furby, stripped out and with about 250 ponies iirc?

[markyvrs]

Tried this earlier with my car and the Mrs' Seat Altea 1.9 TDi (105)

Both cars are running a little smoother, but nothing major.

I was expecting it to sound like a TFSi :P

Used the 7.99 motorcycle oil in the red container.

[Conshine]

Er, Shifty's old Furby, stripped out and with about 250 ponies iirc?

Ta, just wondered

[MoggyTech]

OK I have done some research on this, and it all started in the USA when their ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) was shown to cause wear in pumps and injectors due to reduced lubricity.

In the UK we already have 2% bio diesel mixed in with the normal low sulphur diesel. It turns out that bio diesel has a high lubricity factor, so no other additives are needed.

So bottom line is, in the UK you do not need any other additives in your diesel. Personally I would advise against using 2 stroke oil in diesel PD engines. With pressures of 30,000 PSI I doubt any 2 stroke oil molecule is going to stay intact, and when oil molecules shear, the oil changes state.

The report I read, did note that engine oil mixed in with USLD caused rapid pump and injector wear.

The petro-chemical boffins tend to be ahead of the game most of the time.

[Disco_Mikey]

Thing is - remember the cage mod ? - most people who tried it swore by it, but there was always a person or two who genuinely didn't benefit from it at all.

This 2T stuff seems to be working well for me, your own results might vary.....

A poll for people who decide to try this (on their own responsibility) would be most enlightening.

Since Disco Mikey started this whole 2-stroke thing , perhaps he might like to set up a poll?

Bas

Got me a bottle of oil at Tesco last night. £4.30 for a litre of Castrols finest 2 stroke

Do around 400 miles a week, so we shall (hopefully) see (good) results soon

EDIT: http://briskoda.net/fabia-i/2-stroke-oil-diesel-yay-nay/142367/

Edited 1 April, 2009 by Disco_Mikey

[ninja_alex]

I was really interested to try this, as I am into cars alot and did not believe the reuslts Basil was suggesting happened, so I bought some fully synthetic 2T oil and have put 100ml in 1/2 tank and all I can say is you have have to try it to believe it!

After about 1/2 mile the car was unbelievably smoother and quieter. I have really noticed a difference in traffic, accelerating and coasting back to idle, car now sound smooth as. The best comparison I can put this down to is the difference between driving a 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder car. Maybe its just as mine is havily tuned, but the difference is unreal.

I would say i have lost about 20-25% engine breaking on the overrun where it seems to be 'better' lubricated? Does this sound correct??

Car does not seem to smoke any less, still masses of smoke on heavy acceleration, but now getting over 50mpg on my daily commute, about 5-7% increase.

Have to say, I WILL NOT be filling up withoutt his now. An excellent find

Alex

[MoggyTech]

I would say i have lost about 20-25% engine breaking on the overrun where it seems to be 'better' lubricated? Does this sound correct??

Alex

No it sounds extremely worrying The fuel system is shut off during engine braking, so no fuel enters the cylinders with the throttle closed. So if one part of 2T oil to 200 parts diesel can loose you 25% engine braking, I think there is a snake oil mentalist at work.

This thread is about as scientific as an old boot. I will however be buying shares in 2T oil companies and engine manufacturers.

[ninja_alex]

Maybe its in my head, but it sure feels like it does. Car is 100% smoother though

Alex

[Basil]

The thing is - according to the thread Mercedes themselves allegedly used this as an additive for a diesel endurance race....

Friction is the main enemy of an engine with heat, wear, etc resulting. Turning a 4-stroke into a 2+4 stroke engine sounds like a way to improve efficiency.

If your engine braking is less - then the engine is likely to be less held up overcoming friction (or else you lost a great deal of cylinder compression in one go)

The engines that ran on 2-T additive were reported to have been torn down and inspected with less wear and cleaner internals.

I dont know - but having tried it, I would like to continue to experiment. Yamaha fan (the german OP on the freelander thread) does seem to have quite a few bits of info supporting the use of 2-T oil additive, but this is not the official party line of anyone at all, at all.

Experiment at your own risk.

[Jabbasport]

The only other thing that could reduce engine braking is a fuel such as diesel, oil etc getting into the chambers...

[Basil]

The only other thing that could reduce engine braking is a fuel such as diesel, oil etc getting into the chambers...

How can this happen?

- this is a genuine question for knowledge, I've been learning lots of this site

[Jabbasport]

On over-run the diesel injection stops and no fuel enters the chambers, so just air is compressed and there's little or no combustion.

However, if you get anything remotely diesel like into the chamber due to the high compression ratio and hot spot on the piston it'll use it as a fuel. For instance, turbos going bang and sucking oil up into the engine, although no diesel is injected and the ecu doesnt want to accelerate the engine because of the oil the engine produces power and revs increase.

If you get the theory It's a little hard to explain.

Leaky injectors could cause this, oil getting past rings, oil through intake system etc.

Kev

Edited 1 April, 2009 by Jabbasport

[james631]

On over-run the diesel injection stops and no fuel enters the chambers, so just air is compressed and there's little or no combustion.

However, if you get anything remotely diesel like into the chamber due to the high compression ratio and hot spot on the piston it'll use it as a fuel. For instance, turbos going bang and sucking oil up into the engine, although no diesel is injected and the ecu doesnt want to accelerate the engine because of the oil the engine produces power and revs increase.

If you get the theory It's a little hard to explain.

Leaky injectors could cause this, oil getting past rings, oil through intake system etc.

Kev

Bit of useful info there Kev

[Kaiserb_uk]

Ninja-Alex: Is the reduction in engine braking actually a reduction in the 'jolt' you get when lifting off suddenly? Only I found that reduction was a direct consequence of the Cage mod, particularly at very slow, 1st and 2nd gear speeds. It's more of a 'smoothness' enhancement and the Millers seemed to help with that also.

[MoggyTech]

Update after speaking to a dealer.

SUK clearly state in the owners handbook, that no additives should be used in the fuel system.

Any engine or pump/injector failures, Skoda now dip the fuel tank and have fuel sample analysed. If additives found, no warranty.

Metallurgy tests can also detect residues of additives, so just one treatment of snake oil, er I mean 2 stroke oil, could blow your warranty.

If anyone really does notice reduced engine braking, then either the injectors have starting leaking, or 2T oil is not being burnt properly, or compression has dropped off.

I doubt anyone will listen, but using 2T oil in diesel is an extremely BAD IDEA.

[yegnold]

I will listen - thanks mr MoggyTech

[markyvrs]

I do think that the perceived reduction of engine braking is that the engine is making less noise about the sudden increase in revs when down-shifting. Unless you feel that you are having to brake against the engines power or you feel that the engine is constantly under load with your foot off the gas i wouldn't worry.

As for using 2T oil being a bad idea - the consensus is that it Iis a GOOD idea. As far as warranty goes, would 2T oil be detectable? As it is just oil i would be inclined to think not.

We all know that these engines are designed to be tolerant to differences in fuel quality throughout the world where these cars are sold. If it can handle the rubbish that is sold in some countries, i'm sure it will be licking it's lips at the delicious diesel we offer with an extra helping of gravy (2T oil) to wash it down.

We are constantly told to hadle these PD engines with kit gloves, and unless you use VW 505.01 then you will die etc...

Personally i don't buy it. It's a friggin combustion engine with a relatively small number of moving parts. It certainly didn't take the brains of NASA to invent it.

[big_dave]

Update after speaking to a dealer.

SUK clearly state in the owners handbook, that no additives should be used in the fuel system.

Any engine or pump/injector failures, Skoda now dip the fuel tank and have fuel sample analysed. If additives found, no warranty.

Metallurgy tests can also detect residues of additives, so just one treatment of snake oil, er I mean 2 stroke oil, could blow your warranty.

If anyone really does notice reduced engine braking, then either the injectors have starting leaking, or 2T oil is not being burnt properly, or compression has dropped off.

I doubt anyone will listen, but using 2T oil in diesel is an extremely BAD IDEA.

So you shouldn't use Millers either then?

[yegnold]

Technically, no, you shouldn't

[thirty3]

Got any links to back up your info moggy ??

Is biodiesel ....known to be bad for pd's classed as a additive ??? But is allowed. (it lubricates and cleans that in my book is an additive. This is essentially what 2 stroke is apparently doing...although 1/4 of the strength.

Don't the Vag group use a injector cleaner in the service pack.forte. (maybe vw only) An additive which cleans injectors.

I think its a very complicated business.

[MoggyTech]

Got any links to back up your info moggy ??

.

Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place

Heavy reading, but the gist of it is 2% Bio-Diesel mixed with standard ULSD gives the maximum reduced wear. Some 80% of the products tested INCREASED wear.

Detecting additives in fuel is easy, even in small amounts. Remember this whole fuss started in the USA as their ULSD was quite simply very poor quality.

Will 2T oil wreck a VAG PD engine, I don't know, and I don't have the laboratory equipment to do the required tests. However, I am extremely wary of all 'snake oil' magic bullets, for the simple reason, if they are that good, the oil companies will be using them anyway.

Do I want to risk trying it based on information from the Internet? No thanks.

Look at the claims so far in this thread. Smoother/quieter engine. To me that suggest the combustion flame front speed has been altered. 2T oil in diesel will only ever see the top end of the engine, and if all the hype is to be believed, will reduce soot, increase MPG and power. Sounds like a bigger willy pill to me

[MoggyTech]

As for using 2T oil being a bad idea - the consensus is that it Iis a GOOD idea. As far as warranty goes, would 2T oil be detectable? As it is just oil i would be inclined to think not.

Personally i don't buy it. It's a friggin combustion engine with a relatively small number of moving parts. It certainly didn't take the brains of NASA to invent it.

So what consensus would that be then? Skoda and VAG say no, but internet says yes. Hell it must be good then

Any decent lab can detect impurities in fuel down to one part per million. Believe me, if you used 2T ten tanks ago it would still be picked up in a decent test.

[thirty3]

I dont know whether its true either...

But there have people using over a few years with no problems. And it seems more popular in germany/austria way.

I also found out Cummins authorizes up to 5% of WEO (waste engine oil) to be blended into diesel fuel. I wouldn't put 1/2 teaspoon full in 3 billion gallons of diesel going in my car.

Does that mean they allow dirty sooty oil into the diesel....now that would appear to be snake oil but its not.