seeking help - oil pump failure issue on 2.0TDi

[Supurbia]

hi i am about yo go through the same problem my car is going in this week withh suspected oil pump problem it is a 2008 elegance with just under 62000 miles and 2years and 3 months old

Oil pressure message came up and i stoped right away but now i have to see if skoda show any gd will let me know how u got on please

Full Skoda Service History is crucial here mate, if it's got the stamps they will contribute, and you should aim for 75 - 100% on this, especially as it's a known issue.

[skodanut]

Just a queery....are other volkswagon vehicles suffering from the same problem or is it just the superb?

[skodanut]

To be honest ive seen the mechanics at my local skoda dealership......and one young lad i saw was working on an octavia while i was picking up some building materials and when i came out i saw him thrash the guts out of this octavia.....and i thought no way are they going to treat my car like he did with that unfortunate owners motor........hence the using of a good independant i know . And as for paying around 50 quid an hr roughly is simply out of the question........

[Supurbia]

Just a queery....are other volkswagon vehicles suffering from the same problem or is it just the superb?

Yep, plenty of early Passat 2.0 PD's with the BKP engine.

[Greggo]

I have a Superb on an 07 with 70000 miles and appear to be having this well documented oil pump problem now. I've searched on the net and can get an oil pump easily enough and assuming that I have turned the engine off quickly enough, will having a new fuel pump fitted solve the problem or are there other factors to take into account? Any help will be much appreciated...

[skodanut]

Unless you have a warranty...its not going to be cheap.....though depending how fast you was going and how soon you turned engine off....the damage might already be present...if it is the pump...its like a heart....and as it slowly dies, the oil being the blood doesnt reach the parts that require it...and this happens over a period of time.....and when you think you stopped the engine in time.....depending on your luck...and how fast you was driving....then it could be big money.

sorry if it sounds terminal...but thats the problem.

[rotodiesel]

I've seen a few of these in bits and I don't think your analysis is quite right. The hex drive runs on the very corners and frets as the drive oscillates. An oil pump represents a smooth load on the coupling which is being jerked to death on the drive side.

My analysis - for what it's worth - is that the oil pump works absolutely normally giving 100% output until the drive slips. Then nothing. Once the corners go off the hex, the pump will never be driven again.

The most vulnerable parts of a PD are the turbocharger bearings and the crank main bearings. Obviously, if you drive for any appreciable time without oil pressure you will wreck the lot. If I were unfortunate enough to be faced with this problem, I would take the main bearing caps off the engine (you have to go in there to get to the pump) one at a time and check for signs of pickup or metal running.

IF the mains were in perfect condition I would renew the oil pump and its drive, fit new main bearing shells, which can be done in situ and reassemble the engine. You would then be in a position to run the engine and assess the turbocharger - budget for a replacement.

Finally, I would remove the rocker cover and examine the cams and hydraulic followers. The roller followers for the unit injectors will survive anyway. Knackered camshafts are not exactly unknown on PD engines, but you could then decide what action to take based on the the condition of the cams and possibly replace the camshaft and hydraulic followers at the next belt change - unless hopelessly scored - in which case immediate renewal is required.

PD engine bits are very expensive - more work than this is just not worth doing.

rotodiesel.

Edited 31 August, 2010 by rotodiesel

[rwbaldwin]

I agree with roto's analysis. All the pumps I've seen, are OK except for the rounded off hex coupler. If you turn the rounded off shaft by hand, the pump itself seems fine.

Anyone who hasn't seen one of these couplings and envisages a chunky 1/2" shaft will be disappointed. It is actually 6mm and looks like a 3" piece of Allen key. This would be OK if it ran on its flats where it is driven by the balancer shaft, but no. The hole is not hex shaped. It runs on its points in shallow grooves on the shaft so the contact area is small. The more it wears - the more it vibrates. The more it vibrates - the more it wears.

A former colleague described this as being "a bit like a 6mm allen key in a 7mm bolt-head". He now works for an engineering firm and came up with his own solution.

One of the guys there drilled and threaded the hole in the balancer shaft and made a custom coupler. I assumed that there must be a good reason why VAG hadn't used this arrangement, but the new coupler (and pump) is still good after nearly 120k.

Edited 31 August, 2010 by rwbaldwin

[rotodiesel]

The main reason why solid couplers are not generally used on engines is that it is difficult to maintain absolute concentricity. As a one off, a solid drive might be OK if the alignment was good and of course, assembly is generally more expensive with a solid drive.

I think VAG took "flexible" a bit far with this design. Pity they never owned up - as usual.

rotodiesel.

Edited 31 August, 2010 by rotodiesel

[Greggo]

Thankyou chaps, this information is very helpful. I have passed it all on to my independent garage friend who is doing the work and hopefully I can have the car back on the road (and part exchanged) soon. I'll post the outcome as and when. Thanks again!

[ronatholl]

My 2ltr.140 superb has been in a local (quality) garage for the past three weeks 57 plate, it's used as a taxi and has done just over 120k miles. Fully serviced, cam belts changed early etc. etc. It developed a knocking sound so i took it to the garage....cam shaft worn,(replaced) injector loop replaced,got the car back. Next day the turbo blew, (replaced) then they found the oil pump was buggered and replaced that too. That's when they found out that the oil pump was the "problem" Now the big end bearings need to be replaced. I called Skoda uk and asked them if the pump was causing problems and they said "we have no issues with any oil pump problems" My garage tells me that if this doesn't solve the problem i'm looking at a new engine....HELLLLLLP !!

i now have the same problem oil pressure warning light on my superb 07 plate its only done 70.000 odd miles im really peed off seems the cost is around £1600 to replace oilo pump im really peed off with skodas i thought they were good cars

[rotodiesel]

The sheer honesty of "Skoda" dealers in the light of this and other design faults is quite touching.

 

Vote with your cheque book.

 

rotodiesel.

[ronatholl]

Right, could do with some help or comments on this one

bought a 56plate 2.0TDi superb elegance from skoda dealer 8 weeks ago, had 38k on clock.Car came with 1 year warranty as per normal for 2nd hand vehicle from dealer.

on Sunday 27th sept I went to use the car, as i pulled away from my drive the message "STOP - oil pressure low" came up on the info screen. stopped car and got help to push back onto drive. Checked the oil level, and all OK

contacted dealer who told me to get vehicle recovered to them for investigation - check up on latest news today to be told that it was oil pump failure !. The dealer have started work on just replacing oil pump - when done, they will start vehicle and as long as oil pressure is ok and there are no fault codes showing they are going to give me the car back. :thumbdwn:

Now in light of recent postings and general known issues with VAG 2.0TDi oil pumps, I have asked dealer to investigate with skoda UK about complete replacement of engine, as I am VERY unhappy about taking car back, as there is no way of knowing what residual damage may have been caused by having low oil pressure on start-up.

Am I within my rights to reject this repair, or even the whole vehicle ?

If anyone has got any helpfull comments or assistance I would be very grateful.:confused:

i have had the same problem with the superb oil pressure stop engine warning light mine is still in the garage its only done 78.000 miles i tried to contact the chief executive of Skoda but had no luck as yet this problemas far as i know affects all VW,AUDI AND SKODA A4 engines .i wondered why the rep of Skoda said in his first words there would be no goodwill gesture ?did he already know about this oilo pump problem the car has done only 78.000 miles some people can cover this in two years with a nhew Skoda

[ronatholl]

top banana try contacting Skodsa UK there very evasive

[ronatholl]

when i called Skoda UK i was quoted a part number replacement oil pump sump etc £957 i realise mechanical things need replacing but i think this oil pump problem has somehow been kept quiet i only came across it on this site ,my skoda has only done 78,000 miles i expected a lot more to be honest being a diesel ,the car has had regular oil changes and servicing .the person i spoke to was basically not interested and told me to take it to a skoda dealer.which would cost at least £2,000 for an engine that has basically done very few miles i am seriously not happy with skoda and am considering    calling watchdog i am not at all happy with my Skoda Superb

[ronatholl]

i have had the same problem with the superb oil pressure stop engine warning light mine is still in the garage its only done 78.000 miles i tried to contact the chief executive of Skoda but had no luck as yet this problemas far as i know affects all VW,AUDI AND SKODA A4 engines .i wondered why the rep of Skoda said in his first words there would be no goodwill gesture ?did he already know about this oilo pump problem the car has done only 78.000 miles some people can cover this in two years with a nhew Skoda

your car has done a lot less than mine in mileage terms yet it seems you also hAD oil pump failure it seems the oil pump modification was introduced in 2011 so it makes you wonder how many VW AUDI and SODAS are affected there must be hundreds

[jimbof]

That is why the standing advice on here is to run if you are offered a 2.0.  Of course, there are people driving them, that haven't failed yet, and some are very vocal about it being a great car etc etc...  They've generally been lucky - a few might have pre-emptively upgraded to the longer parts - but it is a disaster waiting to happen :(

[ronatholl]

I agree with roto's analysis. All the pumps I've seen, are OK except for the rounded off hex coupler. If you turn the rounded off shaft by hand, the pump itself seems fine.

Anyone who hasn't seen one of these couplings and envisages a chunky 1/2" shaft will be disappointed. It is actually 6mm and looks like a 3" piece of Allen key. This would be OK if it ran on its flats where it is driven by the balancer shaft, but no. The hole is not hex shaped. It runs on its points in shallow grooves on the shaft so the contact area is small. The more it wears - the more it vibrates. The more it vibrates - the more it wears.

A former colleague described this as being "a bit like a 6mm allen key in a 7mm bolt-head". He now works for an engineering firm and came up with his own solution.

One of the guys there drilled and threaded the hole in the balancer shaft and made a custom coupler. I assumed that there must be a good reason why VAG hadn't used this arrangement, but the new coupler (and pump) is still good after nearly 120k.

I wondered if it was possible to weld up the allen key to the coupler by a specialist welder ,does that sound feasible ,maybe your guy who came up with his own solution would know if welding was feasible ,i dont fancy spending £1,600 on a skoda updated 2011 oil pump kit , i have sent a letter off to Skoda about this oil pump problem but doubt i'll get anywhere ,to be honest i think the cars affected should have been recalled ,not      happy at all

any advice would be appreciated ronnie

[ronatholl]

That is why the standing advice on here is to run if you are offered a 2.0.  Of course, there are people driving them, that haven't failed yet, and some are very vocal about it being a great car etc etc...  They've generally been lucky - a few might have pre-emptively upgraded to the longer parts - but it is a disaster waiting to happen :(

yes it is a great car, pity about the engines that are affected ,even ford diesels with not a very good reputation you can expect at least a 100,000 miles with no problems

[rwbaldwin]

I wondered if it was possible to weld up the allen key to the coupler by a specialist welder ,does that sound feasible ,maybe your guy who came up with his own solution would know if welding was feasible ,i dont fancy spending £1,600 on a skoda updated 2011 oil pump kit , i have sent a letter off to Skoda about this oil pump problem but doubt i'll get anywhere ,to be honest i think the cars affected should have been recalled ,not happy at all

any advice would be appreciated ronnie

No. Trying to fix a faulty balancer unit is impractical for the average owner.

I am now certain that the problem with the balancer unit drive socket is lack of concentricity. It is extremely difficult to create and retrofit a new shaft that is concentric where it meets the pump. Welding just won't meet this criteria and the offset mass of the balancer creates difficulties for other engineering solutions.

You will need a new balancer unit. The replacement balancer unit will have a concentric drive socket.

Individually cars (or groups/batches) can't be recalled, as VAG have no way of determining which cars are affected.

[ronatholl]

OK thanks for that i didnt really think it was feasible ,basically you need the full replacement modified 2011 oil pump kit then ? or can you just buy the balancer unit and the drive key the garage repairing the car have a new oil pump £178 you dont know really what options to take if you fit this new modified oil pump and there has been some damage done to the engine you'd be throwing your money away as theres no real way of knowing if the engine is damaged i only drove roughly half a mile before turning the engine off so hopefully no damage will have been done !!!

Only certain Chassis numbers were affected in the VAG range so VAG must have known about the problem ,they were very evasive when i spoke to them ,

[rotodiesel]

A coupling is required between the slave balance shaft and the oil pump rotor in order to take out concentricity errors. It would be impractical to machine the design to be fully concentric - and needless. Most engines have an oil pump drive which gives no trouble for the life of the engine.

 

The 2.0PD coupling is a ridiculous design, in which six small holes are bored in the slave shaft, followed by a centre hole which breaks through. The hex "socket" is therefore 6 tiny "cusps" which only just engage the corners of the hex drive key. The torsional oscillation from the balancer shafts finishes off this mickey mouse design in short order.

 

I simply don't believe that VAG are unaware of the engines affected. Our Teutonic friends are thoroughly methodical and document absolutely everything. They will know the build standard of every engine they make.

 

Draw your own conclusions as to their morals - these engines were breaking on Audi badged vehicles long before they dumped the last of them in the Superbs.

 

rotodiesel.

Edited 7 September, 2014 by rotodiesel

[ronatholl]

Agree they obviously knew about this problem , absolutely awful oil pump design ,Does the modified oil pump kit sort the problem out ? 900 quid i got quoted plus fitting ,these people who are vocal about    skodas doing 200.000 miles plus obviously havent got this dreaded engine

[Gaz]

 ...is a ridiculous design, in which six small holes are bored in the slave shaft, followed by a centre hole which breaks through. The hex "socket" is therefore 6 tiny "cusps" which only just engage the corners of the hex drive key. 

 

Considering the person hours spent in design and development alone, that is truly laughable.  There's also the cruel irony of drilling it into a 'balance' shaft.

 

Not that it's going to happen, but wouldn't it be interesting to find out how all this came about.

 

Gaz

[rotodiesel]

My suspicion is that due to the inability of the PD principle to meet Euro V > the engineers were busy developing the CR diesels. A PD cannot inject (useless) fuel into the combustion chamber when the exhaust valve is open to burn off the soot filter, because the injector is not and cannot be pressurised at this point. A CR engine has rail pressure available at all times.

 

So, with the engineers busy on a very important job (VAG sell a lot of diesel engines), the final tweaks to the PD were left to the apprentice. He messed it up big time. They also compounded the felony on the 16 valve heads by fitting Seimens peizo injectors which caused engine shut-down due to oil ingress. These had to be recalled. Luckily, the Superb kept the old 8 valve head to minimise changes to a run-out model.

 

I don't think our apprentice "spent hours" designing the 2.0PD oil pump drive. I suspect he was an inexperienced engineer who just clicked on a coupling design which was on his database. I suspect he knew nothing of the effects of torsional oscillation in engines.

 

rotodiesel.