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Ripped off .... yet again!


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#1 CRC

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 18:00

Have just re-taxed my V6 TDI and see that it comes into Band J ( 186 - 200 g/km = £235.00) The renewal notice states that it's rated at 186 g/km CO2, so I thought I'd work out what it actually is the way I drive it.

Over the last few thousand miles, it has averaged 45.7 mpg, which works out at 73.76 km / gallon. A litre of diesel produces 2.68 kgs of CO2 (internet value), so a gallon will produce 12.162 kgs of CO2, or 12,162 gms of CO2.

If I divide 12,162 by 73.76 I get a figure of 164 gms / km, which would put me in Band G .... and save me £80 into the bargain.

The only certain things in life are death and taxes .... mutter, mutter, grumble, grumble.

Edited by CRC, 26 March 2011 - 13:03.


#2 auroan

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 18:17

Ah but the figure used on the V5 is calculated using a set route for a set driving style for ALL cars. It's a constent. You're working your's out to your driving style. I'll guarentee not every V6 TDI will be putting out your avg mpg over the last few thousand miles....

#3 rotodiesel

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 19:13

It makes the extra 10 BHP over a decent 1.9 very expensive. Most PDs produce more than their stated power output.

Hope your VP44 survives...

rotodiesel.

#4 strongmanatforrestgym

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 19:39

It makes the extra 10 BHP over a decent 1.9 very expensive. Most PDs produce more than their stated power output.

Hope your VP44 survives...

rotodiesel.

hi there
i too like the bigger engines, but i just cannt get my head round throwing money at the government in taxes which is why i too went for the taxi sounding 1.9.
shame really as the v6 diesels do sound nice and they put the biggest cheeziest grin on your face when its waft o matic mode !

#5 dieselV6

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 00:27

2.5TDI has not 10bhp but 33bhp (25%) more than 1.9PD even in stock guise, and tons more driving comfort... and yes, my came with more bhp from factory too, 167 stock, just like most PDs come around 136. You can chip either by about 35bhp, except you really do not need it for the V6 on the UK motorways, Europe is another story.

I have not heard about a genuine, proven Passat VP44 failure for a while (as opposed to workshop mechanic talking gullible customer into replacing one), camshafts were fixed in 2004, so why o why do you keep thrashing the 2.5TDI on the Superb forum, Rotodiesel? Do you wish you'd bought one instead of the 1.9? :'(

:D

Edited by dieselV6, 26 March 2011 - 18:56.


#6 CRC

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 13:00

I did a little internet research on the VP44 and couldn't really find too much info regarding faults. I read a forum post about someone with a Passat that had a problem at 180,000 miles, and I've read of a few V6s with in excess of 250,000 miles on them with no problems.

There was a discussion on an American forum about failures of the pump when fitted to Dodge engines, but the general consensus of opinion seemed to be that the faults were caused by the failure of the lift pumps in the tank that should supply about 5 psi to the suction of the VP44. As the VP44 is a very high pressure positive pumps, without a healthy pressure at the inlet, I would imagine that the fuel would cavitate at the suction side and generally wreck the bores of the pump. It certainly happens that way with piston homogenisers in the dairy industry that I'm familiar with, so imagine it would be much the same with these.

I was wondering about fitting a pressure switch with warning led to the fuel line leading to the filter, so that I would get an indication if the lift pump stopped working, but am not sure whether the car's warning system would tell me if the lift pump failed to supply pressure. Anyone know?

Edited by CRC, 26 March 2011 - 13:02.


#7 oh_superb

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 14:23

The problems with the 2.5 tdi that Rotodiesel refers to are related to the electronics "brain" on the unit failing. Mechanically they are pretty much bomb proof. My car is even certified to run on 100% BIODIESEL, so Viton seals etc, made to last.
My average over last 14k miles is 37.5mpg. Town 25mpg, slow UK motorways 45-48mpg. French autoroute/German autobahn 37-44mpg - depends how heavy my shoe is :-)
Oh, I have just done my VENTECTOMY mod today, as per some very useful guide elsewhere on this site and on the internet. I am waiting until my fuel level drops low to see just how much diesel I can now squeeze into the tank, Should be an extra 8 litres or so, which will extend my range by 70-80 miles.

#8 dieselV6

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 15:37

No lift pump on later Superbs with 163bhp BDG engine - only the earlier ones have it, so check if you have one before worrying :yes:

Here is the breakdown of 2.5TDI V6 problems from the very beginning, partly explaining why this engine has poor reputation which is no longer deserved because the problems have long been fixed (at least last 6 years).

1997-2001 - AFB, AKN (150bhp), and early AKE(180bhp) - all hell breaks loose.

Here is the list of most painful issues:
Crankcase breather filter problems leading to blown out seals and oil leaks, oil pump drive problems, camshaft wear, hydraulic valve tappets wear, fuel pump and injector failures due to less than perfect ECU software, yes a software problem causing pump and injection failure, MAF failures except AKE which had Hitachi MAF.

2002-2004 - AYM 155bhp (Superb), later AKE 180bhp - fixed software problems and no more VP44 injection pump problems, failure rate in line with VP37 from now on, at least on VW Group cars.
Camshaft wear and oil system problems still persist.

2004-onwards - BCZ, BAU, BDG (163bhp, Superb), BDH engines get updated camshaft roller arms, and other modifications. In fact, the valve train is pretty much the same on BDG as on current 2.7TDIV6 and 3.0TDI V6. No more tappet and oil system problems (oil system problems were due to metal filings from the cam lobes and tappets).

So let us put to rest the 2.5TDI engine trouble history because since 2004 it is just that, history.

#9 CRC

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 18:36

No lift pump on later Superbs with 163bhp BDG engine - only the earlier ones have it, so check if you have one before worrying :yes:


Nothing at all between the tank and the injection pump? How do you get the air out of the system if the tank ever goes dry? Confused ....

#10 dieselV6

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 18:55

There is 1st stage pump in the VP44 that is capable of some air suction, but basically, yes, if the system goes dry, the WORST way to refill it is to crank until engine fires - basically you operate dry pump. Same goes for a lot of 1.9 engines.

A much better way is to connect vacuum pump (e.g. the kind used for oil changes like Pela or Sealey) to the fuel return line from injection pump and suck out the air until fuel starts flowing out. I usually disconnect return line at fuel filter,plug off the tee end, and connect the vacuum pump to the rubber hose, have practice at this at every fuel filter change.

I think VW took off lift pump because of many problems with these - most notably if they failed the engine would not run (due to poor lift pump design, there are better ones out there, with a bypass). Instead, VW put larger cross section fuel lines and made some improvements to VP44.

In my Superb's fuel tank (2.5TDI BDG) there is just fuel pickup, admittedly much larger than in my Octavia's (1.9TDI ASV).

#11 oh_superb

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:17

Some very good information here from someone who clearly has the "insider view"! Thanks!
My car is a 2002, and looking at the original head which had to come off due to glow plugs (all 3 of them!!) snapping off (monkey mechanic or poor design - I am not sure - I think probably a combination of the two), with 75k miles, basically there is a bit of camshaft wear, just superficial scratching more than actual wear. The followers have some wear on them too, nothing major though, and most of the hydraulic lash adjusters went soggy.
The replacement head was a recon unit, apparently (I was told) it was fitted with uprated cams that were hardened or nitrided, cannot remember, but they are non-OEM and should last, and new followers and INA hydraulics.
Engine is super silent - just when I leave it standing for 7 days and then fire up there is a bit of tappet noise for 2-3 seconds. Pretty normal I think.

Does anyone know if the 163 PS BDG engine is Biodiesel tolerant???

#12 Supurbia

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:31

1.9 auto is only about £20 less mate, you need a Bluemotion Passat B7, £110 pa.

#13 CRC

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:40

DieselV6, thanks very much for that information.

#14 dieselV6

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:44

>>Does anyone know if the 163 PS BDG engine is Biodiesel tolerant??? <<<

At least up to 2006 ones (incl my Superb's) are B100 tolerant (100% biodiesel), but later ones need to be checked in the user manual.

VW withdrew B100 rating around 2007-2008ish following a lot of (several thousand) 1.9PD engines with messed up unit injectors after fueling biodiesel with a tad too much water content, in winter.

It is most likely that later engines are also B100 tolerant, it's just VW does not dare to say they are in case you hold them liable for water in fuel damage when using B100.

In any case, using B100 in winter is a daft idea, best to use B50 max.

I used to refuel a tank of B100 every time I went to Germany, very nice soap bath for the engine. Nowadays I mostly travel across Germany at night, so not much opportunity, and the nearest B100 sources are 40m from where I live in the UK.

#15 NeilS

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 07:46

Thanks to all for this topic, it's been an interesting and very useful read for me as I'm picking up my new (to me) Superb (in a few days time and am interested in the V6 diesel and biodiesel suitability. I hope to be a regular contributor affirming the V6 qualities and legendary reliability ;) as I clock up the miles on the UK and French motorways. It's a surprise to see so many dead links and duff phone numbers when searching for biodiesel suppliers but I guess Gordon Brown removing the 20p a litre subsidy did for many of them. Without wishing to hijack this thread, can anybody recommend a supplier of good quality biodiesel in the M4 corridor or the Gloucester to Worcester area?

#16 oh_superb

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 13:21

>>Does anyone know if the 163 PS BDG engine is Biodiesel tolerant??? <<<

At least up to 2006 ones (incl my Superb's) are B100 tolerant (100% biodiesel), but later ones need to be checked in the user manual.

VW withdrew B100 rating around 2007-2008ish following a lot of (several thousand) 1.9PD engines with messed up unit injectors after fueling biodiesel with a tad too much water content, in winter.

It is most likely that later engines are also B100 tolerant, it's just VW does not dare to say they are in case you hold them liable for water in fuel damage when using B100.

In any case, using B100 in winter is a daft idea, best to use B50 max.

I used to refuel a tank of B100 every time I went to Germany, very nice soap bath for the engine. Nowadays I mostly travel across Germany at night, so not much opportunity, and the nearest B100 sources are 40m from where I live in the UK.


Thanks mate. I am starting to make my own. Messy, but cheap as chips, pardon the pun.
I will have to find places in Germany selling B100 on my route via Nuremberg and Regensburg. Do you know of any good websites that give locations of Bio stations?

#17 Supurbia

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 23:25

Thanks mate. I am starting to make my own. Messy, but cheap as chips, pardon the pun.
I will have to find places in Germany selling B100 on my route via Nuremberg and Regensburg. Do you know of any good websites that give locations of Bio stations?


Do not go 100% bio, it will gunk the system up, use no more than 15% bio if you have to, this isn't a scare tactic, it's a fact VW had lots of issues with this.

#18 dieselV6

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 07:45

B100 is OK as long as it is good quality, ie meeting the standard - and that is unfortunately the problem.
A lot of suppliers are not good quality.

A tank or two of B100 in spring-autumn when it is warm will clean the engine and not gunk anything up. Pure biodiesel is pure soap :yes:

The problems I mentioned earlier were almost exclusively on (1.9)PD engines due to high water content biodiesel - at low temps water was turning into ice and damaging unit injectors in no time at all, while in Germany VW could not escape consumer responsibility and poor supplies were difficult to prove.

Another group of problems was due to glycerine coming out of incorrectly prepared biodiesel and plugging the fuel filter, no damage other than new fuel filter required.

Neither of these problems really occurs above +10deg C, unless you can already see glycerine chunks in fuel when fuelling up.
So as you can see, it is fuel quality that is mostly the problem.

But I agree, if you want to be safe and/or do not know the supplier, it is best to stay with biodiesel-petrodiesel mix, though up to B70 will still have enough diesel to dissolve any problems away. In practice, if you only plan to take a tank of bio along the way, just fill up with B100 when you have a third of fuel left in the tank and you'll be OK.

Edited by dieselV6, 30 March 2011 - 07:47.


#19 Ant695

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 15:39

Have just re-taxed my V6 TDI and see that it comes into Band J ( 186 - 200 g/km = £235.00) The renewal notice states that it's rated at 186 g/km CO2, so I thought I'd work out what it actually is the way I drive it.

Over the last few thousand miles, it has averaged 45.7 mpg, which works out at 73.76 km / gallon. A litre of diesel produces 2.68 kgs of CO2 (internet value), so a gallon will produce 12.162 kgs of CO2, or 12,162 gms of CO2.

If I divide 12,162 by 73.76 I get a figure of 164 gms / km, which would put me in Band G .... and save me £80 into the bargain.

The only certain things in life are death and taxes .... mutter, mutter, grumble, grumble.



£235 is a bargain for a 2.5 litres tax. If that was in ireland and it was a pre 2008 car the tax would be €935. Even my 1.9tdi is €580 for a year so dont be too annoyed about what you have to pay.