Air-Con Losing Gas but no leak?

[Ultima]

I've got a 16 month Octavia which keeps losing the gas out of the air conditioning system. It's been refilled with gas twice, each time they stated no leak was found when they did a vacuum test and put a dye in it. The second refil cost £79, they said I need to use the air con at least once a week otherwise the seals dry up and the gas will leak out.

The handbook states you need to use it at least 5 mins per month to avoid any odours coming from it, which I've been doing. I've used the air conditioning for a similar amount of time and frequency in 2 other vehicles and they haven't had any problems. Is it possible that when the car warms up expansion in the pipes of the system causing leakage which doesn't occur when it's in the dealer?

When I was discussing the issue with one of the service people he said "for all we know you could have had an accident and taken it elsewhere to have it repaired" - insinuating that I've done something to damage the car since they first seen it. Is that the kind of service I should be given?

Edited 6 April, 2012 by Ultima

[Raf_]

Personally I would email skoda UK and complain about the level of service the dealer is giving you, the car is still under warranty and they are not dealing with your problem properly and should not of charged you for the second regas

[blank]

It might be leaking, but not under vacuum.

Are they not finding any traces of dye?

I've seen systems with partially sheared pipes pass the 'leak test' as the vacuum sucks them in and closes the gap.

[Ultima]

Personally I would email skoda UK and complain about the level of service the dealer is giving you, the car is still under warranty and they are not dealing with your problem properly and should not of charged you for the second regas

They said there was a charge as a refill is a consumable, I asked why I wasn't charged the first time, he said I should have been. But there must be a fault causing the problem, which would be covered by the warranty but they can't find it, they just keep saying "u must use it at least once a week". I'll leave it on all the time now but I reckon it will still lose all the gas again, I'll contact Skoda UK too.

Has anyone else had a problem with their air conditioning where the seals have dried out causing all the gas to leak out ?

[Ultima]

It might be leaking, but not under vacuum.

Are they not finding any traces of dye?

I've seen systems with partially sheared pipes pass the 'leak test' as the vacuum sucks them in and closes the gap.

If the gas is coming out of the seals, would the dye show up there?

[Tech1e]

It's actually an offence to recharge a leaking system with a/c gas.

If the gas is going then it has a leak, I'd be looking at the pressure switch myself, changed loads as they start leaking out of the connector.

And the compressor is always running so cycling the system isn't required so much as older systems.

[Ultima]

It's actually an offence to recharge a leaking system with a/c gas.

If the gas is going then it has a leak, I'd be looking at the pressure switch myself, changed loads as they start leaking out of the connector.

And the compressor is always running so cycling the system isn't required so much as older systems.

Are they right when they keep telling me, I have to use it at least once a week to stop the seals drying out ?

The manual says at least 5 mins per month to avoid odours but not to stop the gas leaking out.

BTW do you work at a dealer, maybe I should visit you to get this fixed.

[Tech1e]

Yes I work at a dealer.

The seals won't dry out, the system is always running.

[Ultima]

Yes I work at the dealer.

The seals won't dry out, the system is always running.

Even if AC is switched off ?

[Tech1e]

Yes, there is no clutch on the compressor. The loading changes by an internal solenoid and wobble plate but always runs at a min of 5%

[Ultima]

Do you work at Startin's or Savilles Skoda ?

[silver1011]

Call Skoda UK and open a case (08457 745745)

Your car is still under warranty and has developed a fault, it is therefore their responsibilty to put things right.

The only way a sealed system can loose gas is through a leak. Therefore your A/C system has a leak i.e. it is faulty.

Assuming the car hasn't been accident damaged then it is fair to assume that this is down to a manufacturing defect so any diagnosis/repairs should be undertaken free of charge.

You shouldn't have paid for the second re-gas. After the system lost pressure the first time this should have alerted the dealer to the fact there is a fault. Fair enough, they couldn't find one so refilled it under warranty. The gas leaked out again. This confirms that there is a leak somewhere.

For them to then fill the system again knowing that there is a leak which they know they haven't found or fixed is wrong. To charge you for the privilage is down right unacceptable.

Ring Skoda, open a case, make it clear (politely) that you aren't happy with the service from the dealer and that you would like it fixing and your £79 refunding.

Edited 6 April, 2012 by silver1011

[silver1011]

Oh, and if it isn't resolved to your satisfaction name and shame the dealer too.

[taxigeoff]

I have the same problem (18 month old octavia) Took it in to Simpsons Preston last week, told them the aircon had stopped working and i told them there was a patch of oil on the condensor which you can clearly see from the front (No stone damage). They did a pessure test and said there was no leak so recharged the system at no charge to me. I asked if there was no leak where had the fluid gone. He replied if i have any more problems to go back again.

Edited 6 April, 2012 by taxigeoff

[Ultima]

Oh, and if it isn't resolved to your satisfaction name and shame the dealer too.

The dealer is Capitol Skoda in Newport.

[Ultima]

Call Skoda UK and open a case (08457 745745)

Your car is still under warranty and has developed a fault, it is therefore their responsibilty to put things right.

The only way a sealed system can loose gas is through a leak. Therefore your A/C system has a leak i.e. it is faulty.

Assuming the car hasn't been accident damaged then it is fair to assume that this is down to a manufacturing defect so any diagnosis/repairs should be undertaken free of charge.

You shouldn't have paid for the second re-gas. After the system lost pressure the first time this should have alerted the dealer to the fact there is a fault. Fair enough, they couldn't find one so refilled it under warranty. The gas leaked out again. This confirms that there is a leak somewhere.

For them to then fill the system again knowing that there is a leak which they know they haven't found or fixed is wrong. To charge you for the privilage is down right unacceptable.

Ring Skoda, open a case, make it clear (politely) that you aren't happy with the service from the dealer and that you would like it fixing and your £79 refunding.

Just to clarify, them telling me I have to run it once a week is rubbish ?

Edited 6 April, 2012 by Ultima

[rwbaldwin]

Will running the a/c once a week solve 'your problem' - NO.

It is rubbish.

A bit of background...

All soft a/c systems leak by a small amount known as 'natural leakage'. Soft refers to the non-metal hoses that are required to link the compressor on the moving engine, to the other components on the chassis. It is VERY expensive to produce flexible hoses that do not leak at all.

The Mk.1 used a clutch on the compressor to switch the a/c on and off. This system had a problem with leakage caused by dry seals (o-rings). To prevent this happening, the advice was given to run the a/c on a regular basis so that the PAG oil in the system would coat/lubricate the seals.

Changes in legistration forced manufacturers to reduce the leak rate on more recent cars such as the Mk.2. A quick and cheap solution was to move to a variable displacement compressor that runs all the time. At minimum displacement (often wrongly referred to as off), there is always sufficient flow in the system to coat/lubricate the seals.

Running the system every week is a good idea but has no effect on the leak rate. The manual mentions running once a month to prevent odour. The odour is caused by mould which is not good for you. I would want to run it more often than once a month.

YOU HAVE A LEAK. At most, you should need to top up once every two years. You have had to refill twice in 16 months.

Leaks can be difficult to find, but it's always possible even though it's not always possible to see leaking UV dye.

Tech1e mentioned the pressure switch which is very common. I've also seen leaks from behind the TXV (due to loose fixings).

[DJK3]

I've got an '05 plate Octavia MkII which I bought secondhand 8 months ago. Discovered in the summer that the aircon wasn't working. Had to have the compressor changed, that got it working for 2 weeks before the gas all leaked out. Fortunately my local independent garage had put UV dye in and found two leaking 'o' rings, so changed them. 2 weeks later and its not working again - all leaked out.

The garage tried everything to find the leak but have had to buy a new hydrogen sniffer to find it this time as the R134a sniffer couldn't. Turns out there's a tiny leak from the condenser. So I've got to have that changed now!

The moral is:

1) leaks can be very difficult to find - but if it loses gas in a week or two then it must be leaking somewhere

2) getting an air con system working can end up costing a LOT of money if you're unlucky so decide up front if you really need it!!!!

[flyerphil]

Well these posts are very interesting.

It seems to me that the basic system is a lousy design and not "fit for purpose".

My last four cars have all had AC fitted and none of them had a problem with the compressor failing - even at 200,000 miles (BMW). My Octavia has done 77,000 miles and the compressor is U/S, and have just ordered a new one. I can accept that systems will leak slightly over time, and perhaps a re-gas every 2 years is acceptable.

It seems to be a weak poor design.

One of the four cars mentioned above, was an American car - a Pontiac Firebird. I bought it new in the USA and kept it ten years before it was written off in an accident. I never even had a regas in that one. Mind you, the compressor was huge and when you switched on the AC, the rpm use to drop by 200 rpm, and that was on a V8 with 350 ft Ibs of torque! The Americans know how to do AC systems.

[andyvee]

I have the same problem (18 month old octavia) Took it in to Simpsons Preston last week, told them the aircon had stopped working and i told them there was a patch of oil on the condensor which you can clearly see from the front (No stone damage). They did a pessure test and said there was no leak so recharged the system at no charge to me. I asked if there was no leak where had the fluid gone. He replied if i have any more problems to go back again.

Simpsons in Colne couldn't even regas my system properly and thought it needed a new pipe at almost £450. Went to an aircon specialist and they could find nothing wrong with it all, and vacced it out and regassed it fine.

I don't want to tar all main dealers with the same brush, but most seem unable to diagnose aircon faults. (sorry Tech1e and others who do know what they are on about....)

[MrDurst]

Running the compressor regular(on systems that are not variable) does prevent o-rings drying out, compressor faults and any corrosion. Sometimes leaks are very difficult to find! I wouldn't put up with them saying that the vehicle could have been accident damaged! Ask them to do an OFN pressure test, if they can't do that then get someone in the dealership to acknowledge what you are up to and that this fault has been there since you got the car. Go to an independent A/C specialist and get them to have a look at it, if it's a major piece of pipe work in the back of the engine bay that has a fracture or split in it they may put there hands up. If it's a stone damaged condenser you may have more of a fight on your hands.

Probably the reason they only vacuum test is because they use a fully automated machine that they tap the gas amount in to! They probably don't spend enough time looking with a UV lamp or electronic leak detector if they have one.

[antiprosperous]

Interesting topic this, I had my aircon regassed just after i bought the car last summer, they did it for free and i was well happy but after a couple of months or so i noticed there was a strange noise comming from behind the dash. the noise was similar to the noise an old fridge makes, it was quiet but there none the less. after a while i noticed that my aircon was getting progressivly less cool and now its back to summer again and "low" is only just cooler than the outside temp.

 

I suspect the compresspor may be fine as it was working and slowly stopped which suggests to me a gas related issue but im worried about spending money on parts that it might not be, i cant afford to throw money at it is what i mean. Anyone got any proper defnitive answers or ways i can test certain components before shelling out.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Mike D

[j0hn]

It might be leaking, but not under vacuum.

Are they not finding any traces of dye?

I've seen systems with partially sheared pipes pass the 'leak test' as the vacuum sucks them in and closes the gap.

Mine eventually leaked out of a badly stone chipped and knackered condenser and didn't show any dye under UV.

[antiprosperous]

Can anyone give me any info on how to get to the condenser and how to check if its ok or not?

[trundlenut]

Can anyone give me any info on how to get to the condenser and how to check if its ok or not?

look through the radiator grill.

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