Front shocks, springs, and lovely pinch bolt!

[oh_superb]

Had a broken spring front right, then decided to change the pair and while I was at it might as well change the shocks too as they have seen better days.

Taking the old set out was a breeze.

But putting the new shock/spring assembly in is a pain. Still not managed it, and the missus is furious as I have been using her Honda for the last 3 days....

My first approach was removing the top mount and fitting the shock, spring and top mount assembly into the top suspension triangular support.

Unfortunately this did not work. I think it does work doing it this way if you have aftermarket shorter shocks for lowering the car, BUT on standard springs the whole shock/spring assembly is 30 mm too long, so stubbornly it does not clear the LCA.

So plan B.

Remove the top triangular support plate, but this on its own does not work as space is too tight once again. So put this triangular plate back on the car, and try this approach:

http://www.passatworld.com/forums/61-b5-information-base/104287-replacement-suspension-fwd-passats.html

So here I am: stuck on the pinch bolt! No bruised knuckles yet, just soaking in various anti-seize chemicals, and will try again tomorrow. The 16mm nut came off all right, but the rest is firmly stubbornly irrefutably and unequivocally stuck!

What a stupid design this is. The way I see it they could have simply gone for two threaded ball joints rather than two cheap ball joints with a pinch bolt to hold them together.

I do have a dremel type tool so last option will be to cut it, but dreading doing that.

[dieselV6]

Hi

I see the shocks+springs topic moved from our personal conversation now, yes, the link I sent you might be useful to everyone

About the need to remove pinch bolt, I told you so

Anyway, have you tried to turn the pinch bolt at all? if it is turning, it may be possible to simply unscrew it out of the knuckle.

If it is not turning at all, try hitting the thread end once or twice with a hammer, to shock the seized parts and get them moving.

In any case, replace the bolts afterwards.

But there really is a good reason for all these "grease your pinch bolts" threads we saw on the forum over the years...

Edited 25 May, 2012 by dieselV6

[oh_superb]

The lessons learnt here might be useful for some forum members in the future.

I have been ignoring the remove annually and grease recommendations

Silly me :think:

I love these emoticons.

Nut is off, but the bolt isn't moving. I've been soaking it for 24hrs in Plus Gas and WD40.

Have wacked it a few times but not moving at all. And not spinning either. Can't really hit it any more because the end has already been damaged, I really struggled to put the nut back on, so hitting it further is not an option really, except if I use the nut itself as the bumper.

I might have to cut the bolt and then extract. I have ordered a diamond cutter for my Dremel (it's actually a Bosch though). I got some spare M10 hex head bolts today and Nyloc nuts and plenty of washers for extracting the old bolt. What a pain. But I'll get there eventually, oh yea baby

[oh_superb]

Not a lot of progress today, but in fact even more problems. Diamond Dremel cutters arrived this morning and managed to cut the bolt through the slot closest to the hex head, then spun it and broke the bolt at that point so was able to remove that end of the bolt (last 15-20mm).

So all good at this point.

Next I proceeded by winding down the nut on the other end hoping it would start pulling out the rest of the bolt. But unfortunately it snapped off at the point where the shank joins the threaded section, so maybe 5mm inside!

So what I have now is approx 50 mm of bolt stuck inside.

I will try now drilling it out, with lots and lots of patience. I will also get a piece of steel turned on a lathe just under the internal diameter of the hole so I can use this as a punch for extracting the remainder of the bolt once I have weakened it sufficiently by turning it into Swiss cheese so to speak.

I'm glad at this point it's only an 8.8 spec bolt and not a 12.9, as drilling that might have been a bigger challenge.

Of course any advice is as always appreciated!

Edited 26 May, 2012 by oh_superb

[rum4mo]

Conversaly, if these bolts were 12.9 then you might have managed to get them to turn BEFORE they broke! I was very lucky with my 2000 Passat as I had eased off the O/S pinch bolt and lubed it up, 6 months before the O/S spring broke. If you had taken lots of time and started by making sure that the pinch bolts were freed up, then things would have gone in a more predictable manner. WD40 will not free these bolts up, it is only useful for spraying in once you have got the bolt moving a bit - ie to wash out crap and help to lub the pinch bolt. Plus Gas or something even stronger is needed to get the initial movement. Maybe try Halfords own "shock and freeze" - might not be the exact name, but it freezes the assembly and might just break the rust "bonds". Leaving the nut on and using it as a platform to hit the bolt is also needed. Hopefully this advice will help when you get on to do the other side.You just need to start to get slight rotational movement and work the bolt "in" and "out" washing/lubing with the WD40 only after you have got the initial movement. I find the problem with "weak" stuff like WD40 is, while the rusted areas are completely dry, they will happily absorb proper release oil, but once you have wetted the area with WD40 the caster oil base will keep the solid curd wet and most of the proper release fluid will just run off.

Edited 27 May, 2012 by rum4mo

[oh_superb]

When I dropped out the front end of the bolt, hex side, it was completely dry, as if none of the Plus Gas or WD40 got in there.

I saw this last night, seems like the dogs danglies, the tool is Klann KL-2050-40, about $600 and seems remarkably similar to VAG tool VAS6085:

[rum4mo]

Yes, compressing these springs, and they do need quite a bit of compressing, really worried me far more than any other tapered springs that I've compressed! That clip also showed the need to have the "top" to "bottom" slightly out of line so that the assembly fitted back on without too much trouble, me, I took the mugs way out and applied rubber grease to the upper and lower surfaces of the lower rubber mounting pad so that I could rotate the lower fork using a big screwdriver so that it lined up nicely with the lower link.

[oh_superb]

I scribed a mark on the top mount to line up with the rubber top disc.

Finally today the car is rolling again, though with a mullered pinch bolt and new shock installed on one corner, so not going far, just to the local garage, let them deal with the pinch bolts.

Honestly, this week I have completely changed my perspective on VW from moderately positive to quite negative: I had a boot flood, a simple shock / spring replacement has turned into a week-long nightmare because of the stupidity of the front suspension design. Just now (10pm) I managed to get the whole thing together again so it's conditionally said roadworthy. Managed to put the new shock assembly in by dropping front lower arm, undoing top mount, pushing driveshaft out, and dropping ARB link too. It was a VERY hard job to put it all together. Would definitely be easier if the main pinch bolt could have come out.

[dieselV6]

Sealey makes a decent hydraulic spring compressor (VS7011) that works well, I bought it years ago for under GBP150. And it does the job of fully compressing the spring in under a minute, with little or no damage to spring coating. What a difference it was from threaded spring compressors...

Re pich bolt and VW trouble, while I agree that VW could have done better, there were reminders to grease these bolts on this forum for the past 4 years at least, in fact I listened to them and greased the bolts, and frankly a dab of lithium/silicone grease spray (into the slots, without even removing the bolts) a few years back would have prevented your troubles.

If the car is lifted on both sides at front, there are only 2 or 3 bolts on top to remove, plus the pinch bolt, and the bottom shock mount bolt, and after this the assembly goes off the car, no need to remove anti roll bar. No need to remove driveshaft, though it is worth covering the CV boot with a cloth to prevent damage. But yes, the pich bolt is key to fuss free swap.

I had a lot more fuss removing shock absorber from the Mk1 Octavia (no pinch bolt there) after I think 6 years of use, basically all bolts came out, but the bottom mount gripped the shock and corroded together. Took me 2hrs+ to fully remove it. The shocks were yellow Konis, very prone to rust, and a year later a rear Koni rusted from the inside and cracked. Switched to Bilsteins since and never regretted it.

Respect your Superb, as the cars to genuinely replace it in all functionality, comfort and long cruise / high speed capability cost 3x the money...and as my recent experience with another Skoda offering (Roomster) shows, the build quality that we came to expect from Skoda for the past 10 years may not be so solid anymore. http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/239313-roomster-build-quality-issues/

[oh_superb]

Sealey makes a decent hydraulic spring compressor (VS7011) that works well, I bought it years ago for under GBP150. And it does the job of fully compressing the spring in under a minute, with little or no damage to spring coating. What a difference it was from threaded spring compressors...

Re pich bolt and VW trouble, while I agree that VW could have done better, there were reminders to grease these bolts on this forum for the past 4 years at least, in fact I listened to them and greased the bolts, and frankly a dab of lithium/silicone grease spray (into the slots, without even removing the bolts) a few years back would have prevented your troubles.

If the car is lifted on both sides at front, there are only 2 or 3 bolts on top to remove, plus the pinch bolt, and the bottom shock mount bolt, and after this the assembly goes off the car, no need to remove anti roll bar. No need to remove driveshaft, though it is worth covering the CV boot with a cloth to prevent damage. But yes, the pich bolt is key to fuss free swap.

I had a lot more fuss removing shock absorber from the Mk1 Octavia (no pinch bolt there) after I think 6 years of use, basically all bolts came out, but the bottom mount gripped the shock and corroded together. Took me 2hrs+ to fully remove it. The shocks were yellow Konis, very prone to rust, and a year later a rear Koni rusted from the inside and cracked. Switched to Bilsteins since and never regretted it.

Respect your Superb, as the cars to genuinely replace it in all functionality, comfort and long cruise / high speed capability cost 3x the money...and as my recent experience with another Skoda offering (Roomster) shows, the build quality that we came to expect from Skoda for the past 10 years may not be so solid anymore. http://www.briskoda....quality-issues/

Fair points, it's just that I have only had the car for two years - but fair enough that's still plenty of time to keep lubricating it, at least a few times, which I obviously didn't do.

Yes, looking elsewhere is pointless, fundamentally it is a good car, but some design details are a plain fundamental issue - having said that, if one is aware of the issues, they can be addressed well through adequate preventative maintenance.

It's booked in for Thursday at a local-garage-you-can-trust, they seemed familiar with the Passat pinch bolt troubles and said they have sorted them before, so hopefully they can get the bolt sorted.

[dieselV6]

When you get the car back, spray lithium grease into the slots where the pinch bolt is exposed. It'll work its way in, though that treatment needs to be repeated due to small amounts involved, I'd do it before every winter.

...Unless you can see workshop greasing the bolts. If bolts are greased with anti-seize grease (I use nickel based) when they are put in, there is no need to grease them every year, one application will do until next disassembly.

[oh_superb]

The nearside (new) bolt will have to come out anyway as I am yet to replace the spring/shock on that corner, so might as well take the other (current troublesome) side out and grease up (unless they have done it - I will ask them to).

I've also spotted the CV boot on the side I took off was a bit cracked up, so expect at some point soon that will need to be replaced. I had them both replaced around 22-23k miles ago, so not bad considering what some people get out of them - and I must reiterate they have not actually failed yet.

These were GKN boots from GSF (I think the more expensive option they sell, only about £30 for the pair).

Something I wanted to ask was: to get the driveshaft out on the offside, I took the M14 bolt out, and as I had no replacement I put the original back in - it's a single use bolt isn't it? It's just that it was so rusty that I very much doubt that the garage replaced it when they changed the boots, so they must be originals. I think the spec is 200Nm?

[dieselV6]

The spec for M14 is 115Nm and then additional 1/2 turn, the spec for M16 (6-sped gearbox, possibly also auto) is 190Nm and then 1/2 turn (180deg). This is one bolt you want 40in/1m or longer breaker bar and an impact spec socket.

[rotodiesel]

Later 5 speed cars have an M16 bolt - mine has. (Fixed usual crappy CV joint boot).

It's pointless spraying the pinch bolt in-situ to stop it rusting in. The bolt and the two slots in the swivel forging are dead in line with the tyre and are sprayed continuously with water. The bolt has about a 4" length of plain shank which rusts solidly in the hole - the bolt and the swivel housing are both unplated.

It's so ridiculously easy to take this bolt right out without jacking the car up or removing anything there's no point in bodging. All you need is an M16 socket, extension and UJ + a ring spanner to hold the head. Tap the bolt out and grease thoroughly both the bolt shank and the hole along its length. I then fill the swivel slots with heavy wax to prevent ingress.

Annual proper maintenance pays dividends on these cars - ignore the junk information from VAG and use your common sense and other people's experience. Get it right, and the PD Superb is a good long distance runner with excellent economy.

Get it wrong (or use a dealer) - and the job's a money pit.

rotodiesel.

Edited 30 May, 2012 by rotodiesel

[rum4mo]

I'd reckon that its fair to say that all of these B5 platform cars can be kept for a long time if you use your common sense - ie Audi A4 + Passat + Superb. I've just had an MOT done on my 2000 Passat B5 2.8 4Motion, its only done 84,500 miles, owned by me from new, repairs have been:- battery, front wheel bearings, front springs, front outer gaitors, indicator module, headlight washer pump, headlight sensor link and auto dimming interior mirror. Last car was kept until it was 10 years old (VX CAV GSI 4X4) and before that a line of Fords kept from 2 years from new to 4 years from new. I don't know if I will be smart enough to know when exactly when to replace my Passat B5 - obvious next car seems to be a used Audi A4 3.2 Quattro or a A6 Quattro.A friend with an Audi A6 2.0TDI, and he has had Audis for about 25 years, is getting his wallet emptied by engine problems - but that is probably due to him choosing an Audi with a VW engine that was primarly designed for transverse fitting. Another friend who likes big BMWs was getting some work done by an independant who only works on M-B, BMW and Audi and he reckons that all newish "quality" cars are about the same, with Audi just still top of the pile - in other words, even the best are not too good nowadays.

[oh_superb]

Thanks for all the answers.

Good news. The garage-I -can-trust has today successfully removed the two pinch bolts through application of heat (so torching my upper arms' boots!) and inserting the M10 bolts I supplied - these are 8.8 rated and galvanised with 80mm solid shank and 20 mm threaded end with hex head.

These are coming out soon as I needs to fit the Bilstein shock/spring on the offside corner plus I now need to buy some upper arms too.

Main dealer is not likely to be a cheap place for these - can people recommend a good "alternative" brand or place to buy? I have seen whole kits on ebay for not a lot of money but I am sure these are poor quality - you get what you pay for and I don't want to compromise on quality.

I'll also buy a new hub bolt at the same time. Needless to say regular greasing is now part of the regular servicing for me!!

While driving it today with my asymmetric front suspension I noticed that the corner with the Bilstein shock/spring is much less wallow than the other front corner! I definitely look forward to completing this job! Good advice from DieselV6 on the choice of dampers.

I'm loving my car again

[rum4mo]

WRT getting a new hub bolt, if you are replacing the outer gaitors, why not buy genuine VAG gaitor kit as they come with every thing needed including new bolt (as I found out AFTER ordering gaitors AND bolts! - parts man asked when I picked them up if I really needed the extra bolts - so that saved a bit of money).

[rotodiesel]

The GKN kit from Euro Car Parts comes with a new bolt, circlips, boot clips and grease.

Why buy more of the same rubbish from VAG?

rotodiesel.

[dieselV6]

VAG kit is very good nowadays, much better than factory boots when Superbs were made. Different material used I think.

[rum4mo]

Well unless the gaitors VW used in mid 2000, were good, then quality dropped off and then improved again - I got 11+ years and about 81K miles out of mine, and even then it was just an advisory at MOT time, so when changing the front springs, I got my first proper look at them when they were fully extended - and saw that they were starting to crack a bit, but still sealing.

[rotodiesel]

When I checked on EKTA the part numbers have not changed - so VAG are using the same old rubbish.

rotodiesel.

[oh_superb]

Thanks to all the replies.

In terms of upper links, can we trust Febi?

Such as:

http://www.123spareparts.co.uk/cgi-bin/atm_shop.pl?dsco=10&language=en&ansicht=autoteile&suche=autoteile100208&zubdetails=ERSA-1304422&FZGNR=16295&pag_goto_page=0&pag_select_items_per_page=10&

[dieselV6]

Part number might not have changed, but out of the 3 boots I replaced, first VW one was rubber the last one was plastic, so there definitely is a difference.

Also, even for rubber boots, Febi ones were made of better rubber, (2nd one I replaced).

[oh_superb]

My Febi upper arms finally arrived today, so hopefully will be fitting those soon.

[Gaz]

FWIW, I replaced various front end suspension arms/links on my B5 Passat over the years and never had a problem with Febi units. Perfectly acceptable replacement IMO.

Gaz