1.2 12v - Chain change guide/advice

[hutchysrs50]

Well i think its time to change the chain on my 1.2 12v sport. Having a few problems starting every now and then and its got around 55k on it now. I've read in a few places about the chains stretching a little bit but enough to knock timing off so after short journeys its difficult to start again, which is whats happening to mine. With the milage being what it is i thought i might as well replace it. Any idea when its due? i asume 60k.

Prices i was offered are £55 for just chain or £75 for a full kit, chain, sprockets, guides etc.. (plus vat) so went for the full kit anyway.

I've got the specialist timing tools to lock the cams but... i was told the sump might need to come off? possibly even the head!

So really i'd like to know...

When is the chain due to be changed?

Does the water pump need doing at the same time?

is it a big job?

does the sump need to come off?

any other advice?

Thanks for any replies.

[Tech1e]

There is no interval for the chain, fit for life.

Yes the sump has to come off along with the timing case, head doesn't though.

Water pump can be left alone unless it has a problem with it.

Big job, not for the faint hearted. Also make sure you get all the right sealers, there are different ones for the sump to block and for the timing case.

[hutchysrs50]

Excellent reply, Just what i was after, thank you!

I'll get hold of the two sealants before wednesday when i start the job. Might as well do the oil and filter at the same time then.

Thanks again.

[Tech1e]

Remember to get new engine mounting bolts to, plus you have to have some way of supporting the engine when the mounting is off. Also need a new crank pulley bolt and new bolts for the camshaft pulleys

[Breezy_Pete]

In the category "any other advice" I'd say the very first thing to try is to attempt to fit those timing tools.

I'd've thought that if they slot in relatively easily, without any undue to-ing and fro-ing, that would prove that the chain's OK, no?

[Tech1e]

In the category "any other advice" I'd say the very first thing to try is to attempt to fit those timing tools.

I'd've thought that if they slot in relatively easily, without any undue to-ing and fro-ing, that would prove that the chain's OK, no?

Good idea, however remember with no oil pressure the tensioner won't be fully sprung so there maybe some 'slack' when turning by hand.

[Breezy_Pete]

Aye, hadn't thought of that.

When I was checking ours a couple of months back (on 100k miles at the time) I didn't notice much/any slack/play, but that was without the crank lock (just a rod down plughole #1), and improvised cam tools, so not very 'correct' technique.

[Tech1e]

The crank tool can be a proper joy to get in at times, it's really awkward to get in.

[hutchysrs50]

Remember to get new engine mounting bolts to, plus you have to have some way of supporting the engine when the mounting is off. Also need a new crank pulley bolt and new bolts for the camshaft pulleys

Ahh, i'd completely overlooked replacing all the bolts. Would i be able to put some locktight on and reuse them? not advised im sure but if it'll do the same job?

If not i guess im going to have to pop down to my local skoda dealer and buy some new ones then!

Supporting the engine is fine, i've got a engine support beam, if not a jack under should hopfully do the trick, unfortunately i dont have the luxuary of a ramp as im doing this in my own garage, rather than on the ramp at work.... Im not looking farward to it now!

In the category "any other advice" I'd say the very first thing to try is to attempt to fit those timing tools.

I'd've thought that if they slot in relatively easily, without any undue to-ing and fro-ing, that would prove that the chain's OK, no?

Well to be honest, I dont even know if the chains at fault, its just every now and then when i start the car, it idles high around 1,250... and i know when that happens on start up, when i turn the engine off, it will need a good 10 seconds of turning over to start back up again. I'd read in a few places similar symptoms are all fixed by replacing the timing chain, so sort of paniced myself in buying the full kit and wanting to get it fitted soon as possible! and i guess thinking they needed changing at 60k miles didnt help my panic either.

Now this is turning into a bigger job than i thought... im having second thoughts. What do you guys think of just putting a new chain and runners on, but just leaving all the old sprockets? thinking about it it seems ok since they are fitted for life anyway?

or do i need to man up and start pulling the engine to bits?

[Breezy_Pete]

Got any links to where you've read about such engine behaviour and fixing it with the chain change?

I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'm personally struggling to understand how, especially if it is intermittent. Surely if the chain is causing sprockets to not be in the correct relative orientations, it's going to be doing it all the time? :wonder:

Having read about the procedure for changing the chain, I wouldn't be rushing into it without a really clear demonstration that there was a problem with it.

[Tech1e]

Engine support beam is handy, using a tolley jack under the engine not such an easy idea when your taking the sump off

[hutchysrs50]

Got any links to where you've read about such engine behaviour and fixing it with the chain change?

I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'm personally struggling to understand how, especially if it is intermittent. Surely if the chain is causing sprockets to not be in the correct relative orientations, it's going to be doing it all the time? :wonder:

Having read about the procedure for changing the chain, I wouldn't be rushing into it without a really clear demonstration that there was a problem with it.

Mostly on this forum iirc, before buying the car i used the advanced search to find all posts about the 1.2 12v engine to see if i could find any common faults, i remember reading at least two different threads with my symptoms and it being fixed by getting a new timing chain. I'll try and do more searches and find the old threads.

Engine support beam is handy, using a tolley jack under the engine not such an easy idea when your taking the sump off

Never thought of that either actually...

---------

The car had a ful service with oil filter, oil, spark plugs & air filter at 51,905 miles. The car now has 53,500 miles, Looking through the service history the fuel filter has never been changed and has N/A beside it in the service book??

I think what im going to do is....

Change the oil and filter regaurdless since the sumps coming off, will put in an engine flush before hand. I'll also put in some fuel cleaner/injector cleaner.

I'll try and see if i can find the fuel filter and change it if i can since its never been done.

I'l also take the throttle body off and clean it since i've read it can get clogged up easily.

While im at it i might as well take the egr valve off and give that a good clean to.

Since ive aleady bought the full chain kit i might as well pay the extra and get the new bolts and gaskets from Skoda and do the full lot.

[hutchysrs50]

a quick quote from another thread.

"Timing chains of 3-cylinder chain cam petrol engines are snapping, possibly because they need cleaner oil than VAG anticipated with its service regime, or possibly because the wrong oil has been used. Timing chain tensioner problems on 2002-2003 1.2s, usually caused by not changing the oil and filter often enough. Cured on later engines by a more substantial tensioner."

And another

"My first guess would be a timing chain fault, if you do a search you will find loads to read up on

BTW 50k miles is almost exactly when they seem to go

the chain only needs to jump 1 0r 2 teeth on the sprockets to stop it starting a tow start may get it going if this is the case"

i found may more on my google search but got carried away looking hrough forums i forgot to copy and paste them on here.

Edited 5 August, 2012 by hutchysrs50

[Tech1e]

Yes we did or do a kit that has the later chain and revised guides etc. this maybe what you have bought. Yours might have them anyhow, not sure on when they became production. I however have never seen one snap in 10 years, this isn't to say it doesn't happen though. I have seen a fair few slip though do to lack of oil or oil pressure or the crankshaft bolt not been done up to the correct torque.

[Breezy_Pete]

I've had a thought.

Since you've owned your 1.2, have you had a look at the EGR valve from below at all?

Dunno if you've seen the Pierburg pdf with the piccies of these with core plugs blown out the bottom of them etc.?

Just wondering if yours has a significant leak here. If it did have, and the valve is sometimes sticking open, it might fit your symptoms. Fresh air bypassing the throttle via the EGR pipework could I think give you those higher than usual revs; and the ECU's attempts to regulate this 'illogical' situation might result in it closing the throttle off too much for the next start?

I'm not sure this theory really works, but it may be worth a look at the EGR anyway, just in case.

[hutchysrs50]

I've had a thought.

Since you've owned your 1.2, have you had a look at the EGR valve from below at all?

Dunno if you've seen the Pierburg pdf with the piccies of these with core plugs blown out the bottom of them etc.?

Just wondering if yours has a significant leak here. If it did have, and the valve is sometimes sticking open, it might fit your symptoms. Fresh air bypassing the throttle via the EGR pipework could I think give you those higher than usual revs; and the ECU's attempts to regulate this 'illogical' situation might result in it closing the throttle off too much for the next start?

I'm not sure this theory really works, but it may be worth a look at the EGR anyway, just in case.

may be a dumb thing to say but im not sure what you mean with "the Pierburg pdf with the piccies"

But no i havnt looked at my EGR valve at all since owning the car, only thing i've really done is take the engine cover off to check the plugs are new and the air filter was new to match the service history.

[Breezy_Pete]

This'un: http://www.ms-motor-service.com/ximages/pg_si_0084_en_web.pdf

[hutchysrs50]

Hmm, the symptoms are similar i guess. After looking at that im 100% going to check mine now, this simple timing chain job has turned into quite a list!

To Do...

New oil filter and new oil, im going to use castrol 10w40 part-synth

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_254023_langId_-1_categoryId_165581

Change the fuel filter since i dont think its ever been done yet...

As i already mentiond im going to take the throttle body off and clean that since it could be abit clogged up

Also going to remove the EGR vale and pipes, clean them out and check for damage.

To Buy

Fuel filter - £20

Oil - £35

Oil filter - £5

Sump gasket - £10

Chain cover gasket - £10

Crank pully bolts - £10

Camshaft pulley bolts - £10

Engine mounting bolts £10

Engine flush - £5

Fuel cleaner £5

Prices are just to give me a rough idea on how much its going to cost me... guess i'll post the total to give other people an idea when its all done.

[hutchysrs50]

Well im sitting in customer service at benfield skoda right now.

They have said...

"we dont replace any bolts when doing a timing chain. The gaskets are £15.60 + vat for sump and £29.50 + vat for the cover to the block"

Not sure what to do now really.... None are in stock also. Locktight and universal gasket paste will be used now i think.

[Tech1e]

Lol, they don't look at ELSA then.

Posted something to you today

[Breezy_Pete]

If I were you I'd stop spending money on bits that only might need doing, and only might cure the problem with your engine.

I'd be happy to send you the little bars I made up to check the chain on ours, which might give an easier visual check on the crank/cam timing than the locking kit. As Tech1e says, the crank pin looks a bit of a ballache to fit, but you'd not need to with my 'ghetto' method. Details in post #6 here : http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/235977-wideband-lambda-on-12-12v-azq-egr-valve-in-the-end/

[hutchysrs50]

Lol, they don't look at ELSA then.

Posted something to you today

I told the guy i had a friend that worked for Skoda who suggested i came to get the parts, he went away to speak to some other people and came back saying when they do a timing chain on my car they replace 3 bolts, part number N90994802 - Orderd two of them and part number N90987302 - Orderd one of them. Total was £8.13 for just the bolts. He said to collect them tomorrow anytime after 9:30 so next day delivery is good.

As i said in my reply earlier the gaskets came back alot more expensive than i had thought at around £55 with vat, Which i really cant justify paying so will be using "Loctite 5910 Premium Gasket/Sealant" could possibly all go wrong and i'll end up paying for the proper gasket, but worth a try imo.

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_173106_langId_-1_categoryId_255217

And.. Thank you, hopfully get them tomorrow! if not will do the job on thursday or when they arrive. Reply to my message if its needed.

If I were you I'd stop spending money on bits that only might need doing, and only might cure the problem with your engine.

I'd be happy to send you the little bars I made up to check the chain on ours, which might give an easier visual check on the crank/cam timing than the locking kit. As Tech1e says, the crank pin looks a bit of a ballache to fit, but you'd not need to with my 'ghetto' method. Details in post #6 here : http://www.briskoda....lve-in-the-end/

I know where your coming from about stop spending money on the timing chain but its abit rattley and at 3k revs i can hear it over the radio! so its getting done now regurdless of fault. The problem was quite bad today mind....

it was a cold start, the car was left outside of work untouched for about 7 hours, its nice and hot outside reading about 20 degrees and had been parked in the sun.

Started off the key straight away but was idling around 1300 i left it for a few seconds with no change, i reved it at 2500 for abit and it still idled high. i turned the engine off, went to turn it straight back on and nothing... engine turned over and over and didnt start. i waited a minute to give the starter a rest, turned the key and it started as if nothing had happend idling around 800 (normal for me)

------------

I'll put the fuel cleaner in tomorrow and go for a drive to flush it through.

I'll put the engine flush in tomorrow or thursday depending on when Tech1e's delivery arrives.

I'll scan the car for fault codes tomorrow with full vcds and see what it brings up.

I'll clean the throttle body & egr valve tomorrow or thursday also!

Will be putting new oil & oil filter in with the chain, as well as cleaning out the airbox and air filter with the air lines. i'll take the plugs out and check for anything odd, clean & gap them or will replace if they look bad.

If after doing all of that and im still getting problems i'll start fault finding.

[Breezy_Pete]

Any pics you could take as you go about the chain job would potentially be useful for others like me, but it sounds like you'll be a busy man so don't worry.

I might be interested in getting a look at the tensioner that comes off the car, assuming that's part of the kit you've got and you would otherwise be binning the old one. I'm just curious to know how they work. PM me to discuss if this is a possibility.

Best of luck with the job. :sun:

[hutchysrs50]

Well i wrote a lengthy reply on here yesterday but it decided not to post and i was to tired to write it all out again... but nevertheless here i go again.

The Update!

Didnt get anything done yesterday as the job has how been moved to saturday. Since the jobs turned out to be alot bigger than i had first thought im going to do it in the garage i work at (peugeot) this wasnt really an option originaly as we have a new boss and doesnt allow any work on our own cars to be done in the garage, so this is a rare opportunity i've been given to use the ramp, tools and have a garage full of experienced technicians although none of them have done a timing chain on my engine and dont think the sump needs to come off (i know 100% it does) so dont know how much help they will be!

I'll try and take pictures if i can but can't promis anything, just want to get it over and done with quick as i can really.

Today...

I took the egr valve & pipes off, quite an easy job really somthing like 2 torx bits and 2 x 12mm nuts. i noticed everything was quite loose... now im not sure if this could be part of the problem but he 2 torz screws that hold the pipe to the throttle body were almost finger tight and could of been letting air in. either way i took it all apart, cleaned the inside of the pipe with plenty of brake cleaner and a small screw driver getting rid of the cabon deposits, was quite clean overall so cant see it making any difference. Oh and i checked for damage where you suggested and everything was fine.

I then took the full throttle body off, also a very quick easy job, 4 torx screws and it lifted off. Now these also had very low torque figures, they were all loose and 1 out of the 4 wasnt even all the way down, after i took them off and lifted it out the way i could see the rubber seal... 80% of it was black where it had been sealed but part of it beside the loose screw had gray specs of dirt where it looked like dirt had been getting sucked in and building up. Could have just been me getting carried away but thats what it looked like imo. It was quite dirty on the butteryfly with a good 1mm - 1.5mm of carbon build up all the way round. After cleaning a small part of it back to silver i couldnt resist getting the rest of it looking all shiny and new! i probly spent around 1 hour and a whole can of brake/parts cleaner getting every spec of dirt off it, sorry i dont have pictures but i was at work after all! I tightend them back up quite tight so it should get a good seal this time.

One thing i didnt anticipate was having to code them back to my car. I put it all back together and took it for a short test drive, it was idling a little lumpy and would rev by itself... i thought it would sort itself out and must have been the brake cleaner or somthing but not long after... the engine managment light came on. I put it straight onto the computer and had to set the values for the egr valve and throttle again. iirc the throttle value was 46 and the egr was 78. Everythings fine now they have been set and the car seems... the same really.

The delivery i was expecting came in the post yesterday so thanks alot tech1e it will be a great help! thanks again for highlighting the key areas also

Regaurding the tensioner, you can have the old one no problem, i'll pm you when im not so busy.

Thanks again for following the thread and replying, will post back soon.

[hutchysrs50]

So one of the final updates for this problem i hope.

As i've said in my other reply, on Thursday i cleaned the throttle body, egr valve & egr pipes. Now today (Saturday) the big job of changing the timing chain kit got ticked off the list.

I checked on the computer before starting and it gave a job time of around 4 hours. I was doing a few other thing's at the same time so expected it to be complete around 4 and a half maybe.

Last night (Friday) i put half a bottle of redex petrol cleaner in with £20 of petrol to get things started for Saturday. I drove about 15 mile to work this morning so hopfully it would have cleaned somthing out a little? anyway i started the timing chain around 1:10. I started by putting a Forte engine flush into the engine and left it to idle untill 1:30 then drove it into the garage and onto the ramp.

I Started it off by draining all the oil and removing the sump, was a little tricky with the exhaust running along side/under the sump making it difficult to remove all the bolts holding the sump in place. Left all the other oil to drip out and lowerd the engine back down

removed all the plastic trim and engine cover around the same time, removed the alternator as well since it looked like it would get in the way. I then set about locking the timing. The two cams locked straight away without a problem, The crank was a little more tricky since i had to remove the sensor as the rear of the engine which is nicley angled upwards making the bolts difficult to remove. Once the sensor was out locking the crank was pretty easy and went in without much hastle.

With the engine all locked up nicley i set about removing the aux belt, pulleys and what not. I then removed the side casing, removed the old, inspected, replaced with new, put all back together. job done really. A few snags along the way such as an allen key snapping in one of the chain cover bolts, the exhaust in the way of the sump and..... the 150nm of torque onto the crank bolt! + half a turn after that! im not sure if i had read it wrong or set the torque incorrectly but it seemed like one hell of a torque to put onto such a small bolt. i was nearly swinging off the torque wrench getting the full torque on never mind an extra half a turn, i feared it may snap inside the crank and then thats it... Game Over! the torque it set to around 155nm and thats it, so hopfully its tight enough.

Another strange thing i noticed was the new bolts i orderd from Skoda had no locktight on them what so over... Yet the ones i took out did have. I've orderd & used many new crank bolts on Peugeots and Citroens and they all have blue locktight on the end of the bolts ready to be installed, so strange why the skoda one didn't. I used some locktight on my crank bolt before fitted anyway, right or wrong thing to do.... i dont know.

Of course, there was alot more to it than that but i'd be here all night explaining every little detail.

I also changed the oil filter since i was putting new oil in, and replaced the fuel filter at the same time, Fuel filter was a little tricky since them push on clips NEVER clip back on once they have been removed, so had to play around with that abit as well. Glad i did change the fuel filter since it was the original one, was date stamped somthing like 22/8/2005 and my cars a 2006 model so... The plugs all looked well, Air filter still looked brand new. I finished up and had all the tools away by half 6 so took longer than i had expected but doesnt matter really, spent lot longer than i should have polishing up the sump making it look new. Same with the chain cover as well. I should have possibly orderd a new crank oil seal at the same time for what it would have cost.

So over all i have done....

A Forte engine flush - £6

Added redex fuel treatment - £5

Put a new oil filter in - £4

Put a new fuel filter in - £13.50!!

Put new castrol 10w40 oil in (4L) - £18

Put a new timing chain & other kit - £92

Used locktight - £2

Gaskets - £15

New bolts for engine (crank & cams) - £8.12

Cleaned the egr valve etc - Time

Cleaned the throttle body - Time

Hopfully problem solved, Any questions pm me and i'll answer them the best i can, anything els reply to the thread.

Thanks for all the help along the way