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Stop /start technology


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#1 Mr Ree

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:58

I've been asked the question on another general forum I frequent, if the battery suffers on account of the engine being started vastly more frequently, thus leading to a much shortwer working life?

I replied that I wouldn't have thought so, but upon thinking about it, then yes, I suppose it will.

What do you lot reckon, and will the high cost of more frequent battery changes wipe out any fuel saving costs?

I was pointed to this interesting link on s & s systems too btw....


http://www.thetrutha...t-stop-systems/

#2 slider

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:21

reckon frequent drain of the battery is bound to have an adverse effect - also wear and tear on the starter motor and fly wheel

#3 CFB

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:46

From what I gather, the artery is an upgraded version of the non start stop car and should cope adequately.
Likewise, the starter motor is also a more robust unit.
No idea about the flywheel but I guess that it will have been looked at by the designers/engineers.

#4 Rob 4x4

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 18:48

Fifth gear did a test of a megane with stop start, fuel economy was increased by approx 10% but after sitting at road work traffic lights for 2 minutes the car restarted itself because battery was getting too low running the electrics etc.

Cant imagine it will do the engines any long term good, increased wear to starter etc. I would have thought firing a closed cylinder rather than starter motor would be a better way to start back up

#5 fordfan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 19:03

From what I've read about it, there are 3 ways of starting the engine:

1: Conventionally with an uprated starter motor
2: Using a starter motor that is in constant mesh with the engine
3: Which I think is the clever way, on a petrol engine stopping the engine at an exact position whereby a squirt of petrol and spark will start the engine.

This technology serves a purpose in which it gives the car good emissions and fuel economy results, fine when the car is under warranty, but it could render a car uneconomical to repair in later life, leading to earlier replacement and the associated emissions with making a new car.

#6 gadgetman

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 20:14

Fifth gear did a test of a megane with stop start, fuel economy was increased by approx 10% but after sitting at road work traffic lights for 2 minutes the car restarted itself because battery was getting too low running the electrics etc.

Cant imagine it will do the engines any long term good, increased wear to starter etc. I would have thought firing a closed cylinder rather than starter motor would be a better way to start back up

Yup it won't shut off if battery is too low, or drain too high due to things like ac being on full.

#7 Chris GB

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 23:43

Uprated battery, starter, charge state monitoring and in some cars, smart charging regime all contribute to the system. In these cars, the battery is larger in my experience and is well looked after. My Mini Cooper D had the stop start system and I had no issues with battery or starting system in 153,000 miles.

Chris

#8 CFB

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:00

Yup it won't shut off if battery is too low, or drain too high due to things like ac being on full.


In the citigo, the A/C, heated seats etc shut off when the engine is not running under start stop conditions.
The car has to fit various parameters before the start stop will activate.
For example: engine up to temp.

#9 silver1011

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:47

Tiff Needell did an experiment in a Renault Megane on Fifth Gear recently (series 21, episode 8).

Fast forward to 20 minutes in the see it here...



It works, but you've got to spend most of your time in stop/start traffic to see the benefits.

#10 andypandypoos

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:29

It works, but you've got to spend most of your time in stop/start traffic to see the benefits.


really?!

#11 budfox

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 13:39

Environmentally pandering claptrap like so much other stuff these days.

#12 silver1011

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 14:20

really?!


You know what I mean!

If the bulk of your mileage is motorway rather than urban then you aren't going to see the benefit.

#13 Eddie-NL

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 14:28

Batteries for Stop / Start are nearly twice as much as a Standard battery

#14 Chris GB

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 14:30

Environmentally pandering claptrap like so much other stuff these days.


Saves me somewhere between two and three hundred quid a year, which i can spend on fuel for my non eco car.

Chris

#15 Volvomeg

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 21:00

Stop/Start batteries are differant to your average car battery and are designed to cope with the drain from the starter motor,

The battery is constantly monitored by sensors to how much life it has in it, volvos have to be 70% charged for stop start to work and if there is to much current been pulled or weathers to cold it won't stop,

TBH its a pain as for mr rep its fine as the cars used regular but for the oaps etc who just use car to go to shops and back twice a week then wonder why it doesn't work

#16 grr666

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:01

I sat behind a car with stop start recently in a traffic jam.
Although I've never driven one I'd imagine it would get on
my t1ts very quickly. The short pause before this one could move away
would become very trying if it was my car.

#17 Aspman

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:34

If you don't drive in an urban area it's just added weight. SWMBOs BMW has it and we see the engine stop maybe once a month. We just don't drive on roads that make use of it.

#18 gadgetman

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:34

I sat behind a car with stop start recently in a traffic jam.
Although I've never driven one I'd imagine it would get on
my t1ts very quickly. The short pause before this one could move away
would become very trying if it was my car.


The sharan starts within a second. As normal depends how quickly the driver reacts.

I will turn it off when creeping along as yes that does get boring quickly. Blurb says should be stationary for min 20 seconds otherwise you should turn off (in my case else it eats adblue)

#19 matt1chelski

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 14:37

Had it on a hire car and staff shuttle, (A class merc and ford galaxy). Didnt find it too annoying in either case tbh. It only turned off if I was in neutral and foot off the clutch, so that was only times when I would be sat for more than a few seconds anyway. Soon as I touched the clutch it sprang back into life before i`d even got it into gear, so no delay pulling away for me.

#20 Blackline Stu

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 23:10

My dads land rover has stop/start on it and even when i am the passenger it annoys me. It stops the windscreen wipers when stationary so everything becomes blurry with all the water on the screen and it just unnerves me every time it stops by its self.
It annoys him as well because every time he gets in he turns it off, but even that would annoy me. Every time you start the car you have got to press a button to get the car to behave the way you want it to.
I know that the landy has a more robust starter motor than those not fitted with stop/start and it also has a bigger battery as well.

#21 gadgetman

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:28

Every start stop system I've seen you dip the clutch or on an auto a brake /accelerator tap

#22 Huskoda

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:21

I've experienced it on a manual Volvo, where I actually didn't mind it (handbrake on and neutral). I later drove a DSG Scirroco with it and I very quickly looked for how to turn it off as it kept cutting the engine at junctions just as I was about to go. Does a diesel really use so much fuel on idle that its worth turning off the engine for what must be 30 seconds in a 30 minute drive?

#23 Mr Ree

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:41

Must admit, my system is pretty low tech., but I use my hand to turn the key if I consider I'm going to be stopped for more than 20 seconds.

#24 Phil-E

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:05

Cant imagine it will do the engines any long term good, increased wear to starter etc. I would have thought firing a closed cylinder rather than starter motor would be a better way to start back up


Mazda actually did that on one of their engines. So no starter motor was required to restart. The engine stopped in a certain position so that all was required was a spark and it fired up again. Obviously wouldn't work with a diesel though.

Must admit, my system is pretty low tech., but I use my hand to turn the key if I consider I'm going to be stopped for more than 20 seconds.


I used to do that up until we started getting hot starting issues and it would take a good 5 seconds to turn over and start! lol

This also puts more wear on the non-stop start battery and starter.

Stop-start will only work if the battery is above a certain level. You may shut the engine off and not know that the battery is fairly low and put undue strain on it.

Phil

#25 MattyD

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:05

3: Which I think is the clever way, on a petrol engine stopping the engine at an exact position whereby a squirt of petrol and spark will start the engine.


That's what happens on Toyotas with the stop and start on them. Plus they get batteries designed for stop start as well. There are fuel saving benefits, not vastly but there are. Plus you get lower emissions so can get cheaper road tax too.

#26 Robjon

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 21:35

Must admit, my system is pretty low tech., but I use my hand to turn the key if I consider I'm going to be stopped for more than 20 seconds.


IMHO this is the most environmentally-friendly stop/start system available :thumbup:

#27 Jockdooshbag

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:40

Stop start is just another tool to lower co2 and therefore is a good marketing / selling tool for a car. It does work however in the right circumstances but if you dont happen to drive under those circumstances then you wont gain directly. You would still gain however if you were a company car driver as the lower co2 would mean you pay less "benefit in kind" tax even if you only did motorway miles.

I think its a good idea as assuming the starter and battery are beefed up to cope then whats the down side?

I always slip my DSG into neutral no matter how short a time im stopped as i can hear a difference in engine tone so it must be taking the strain off something. For this reason i would likely see benefits from stop start sometimes. Given the choice i would rather have it.

If you dont pay company car tax and dont do a lot of urban driving then you wont benefit but i hardly think it would impede you in anyway.

#28 Phil-E

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:46

I always slip my DSG into neutral no matter how short a time im stopped as i can hear a difference in engine tone so it must be taking the strain off something. For this reason i would likely see benefits from stop start sometimes. Given the choice i would rather have it.


Yes when it is in gear with your foot on the brake etc I think the clucth is semi engaged to enable to "creep" when releasing the brakes.

Not sure about if the handbrake is on whether is opens the clutch.

Phil

#29 ScoobyChris

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:12

Introduced to it on my last car and also have it on my current car. I quite like it and it feels weird driving a car without it now and I've never had an issue with the car being slow to start when the clutch is depressed. As far as longevity of components goes, I think they have been beefed up sufficiently, however, some of the BMW folks are finding if you do lots of short journeys the battery (unsurprisingly!) deteriorates over time so it is unable to hold enough charge for the stop/start to work but remains fine for running everything else.

As well as the higher cost of AGM batteries, they also need "coding" when installed although it's possible to DIY this with a lead/software off ebay .. apparently. :D

Chris

#30 tomgtturbo

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 19:21

It may just be me but surely if a car with stop start technology has a turbo, whether it be petrol or diesel, if it was driven hard then suddenly stops in traffic and switches off isnt this a bad thing for the life of the turbo? Ie causing oil seals to perish earlier than usual? Just my 2p plus my mum and dad have it in their Guilietta and dont use it :D




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