Warning on Spark Plugs 1.4 TSI CAVE VRS, (& CTHE)'check the spark plugs!'

[Rooted]

bump

[James Hamilton]

what are the chances of ruined plugs damaging the engine? the 4 removed from my car on Tuesday were shot, and im guessing they have been for a while and only just been changed at 40K. 

 

Id like as much info as i can gather before i go back to skoda dealer tonight.

 

thanks

[Ally_bassman]

Quite high really. Just takes a small bit to break off and completely total your engine.

Do you have pictures of the plugs?

Is your car an oil user?

What fuel is it run on?

[Ally_bassman]

Should add that you would know instantly if a damaged plug has ruined your engine.

If your car runs fine then don't worry too much. Just think about maybe changing them more regularly.

[Rooted]

James,

 

From your other post about it having a replacement engine, already

New Plugs should have been fitted then.

 

But there was a Period when the were not new engines,

They were Short Units and Rebuilt at Dealership Engines,

& some places did not fit new plugs.

 

They are not 'New Engines' that get fitted now.

they are Factory Refurbished Engines,  which is OK, and Should Have new Spark Plugs when the car is handed back to the owners.

 

The Thing is, Has Your CAVE Replacement Engine not only got new plugs now,

but also the Latest Skoda ECU Update.

 

If the Dealers are in doubt, say you want that, at Skodas Expense, not yours.

Any humming and hawing from the Dealership,

then get Skoda UK Customer Services 'Special Technical Team' to approve it being done.

 

No idea if they actually exist, but Skoda UK would have us believe they do.

[James Hamilton]

Thanks. 

 

I don't believe it did have new plugs after the new engine, and while they say the fitted a new engine, i believe that it was one of the short units you mentioned.

is it best to contact Skoda Uk and inform them of the situation or just keep returning to the Skoda dealer and getting them to deal with it?

[Rooted]

If the Skoda Dealer puts in a Warranty Claim and does the work, then fine.

If they are competent, then fine.

 

?

Were you charged to have the Spark Plugs Changed, you should not have been.

If they did the latest ECU Update as well that would have been good.

 

But since you have a Mis-fire,

 simple enough to Call then Email Skoda Uk Customer Services. Raise a Case,

Say you want a ECU Update & that you have concerns with the Warranty Work done replacing the Engine first time,

& there is a Mis-fire.

You maybe need new Coils.

 

Keep records, and ask Skoda Customer Services to confirm anything they say in writing.

They do have some that are clueless and less than truthful in their employ.

[James Hamilton]

thanks for all your advice, ill speak to the dealer tonight. i shall update later

[James Hamilton]

Just an update, got the car back last night.

 

I forgot to mention that it had been in for service on Tuesday, and when I received it back it was leaving puddles of oil on the floor. This apparently was down to a faulty oil filter, which they changed yesterday. However there still was a Small puddle of oil this morning on the road, I don't know if this is just what's reaming from the fault filter running off the chassis.

 

Onto the sparkplugs / misfire I was still having after they replaced the plugs.

 

I asked if the ECU upgrade had been done and they said that it was already on the latest version, and without the car producing a fault code for the misfire that I can feel, there is nothing they can do.

 

I'm going to monitor the oil puddles, but I think its probably going to be going back in tomorrow.

[newbie69]

Finally got to change mine today. Coilpacks needed a bit more pulling, then the loom needed you to push on the clip below for it to disconnect and eventually I managed to change all 4 of them with 4 new NGK BR7EIX. Reason was the car was feeling a bit rough during the last 2-3K km especially right after starting the engine, on idle, but no warning lights or misfires. Plus plugs were in from new, now done 45K km so they were anyway at 3/4 of the mileage Skoda suggests as a limit for replacement (60K I think).

 

This is how they old ones look (From left to right > 1 to 4). The infamous no.3 looks normal I think but no.1 is too white, which I'd read is an indication of...?something not very good anyway.

 

Car definitely feels more smooth on starting up and idle now, first time I stopped at a traffic light after the change it was so quiet I thought it turned itself off!

 

 

 

 

[Jabozuma]

it looks like 1&4 are from a different engine that 2&3!!

1 (left) is running waay to hot and you have detonation in that cylinder - ceramic insulator completely white with pock marks on it (uneven, like chickenpox scarring)

2 is running rich (and cold) and is burning little bit of oil, running too cold

3 is running very rich and burning lots of oil and it looks like the best culprit for misfires, running waay to cold

4 is the best of them lot, temp looks ok, a bit too rich and it eats a little bit of oil

 

This how plugs should look like from Dave's motor 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/260650-bloody-misfire/#entry3070520

 

Your engine is not working correctly, full live diagnostics need to be done to see what is wrong with it. Compression test on all pots and ignition system test a must. You can check your main earthing cable yourself - unscrew, clean and screw back in, cover in grease to prevent electrolytic corrosion. 

[Rooted]

re post #85,  

I would say the Plug Second from the right in the picture, came from the Cylinder 2nd from the left as you look at the Engine when you open the bonnet.

 

The one that gets oiled and cooked. & fails.

 

The latest Skoda/VW ECU update for a '1.4 TSI CAVE' engine should have the fueling sorted and the new plugs lasting better. Have the engine running all together better.

[newbie69]

I don't know what to say. I had never felt any hesitation whatsoever and I was driving it really hard once every week, that was a 10 km hill climb with revs above 4K during the entire climb. Only lately, there was a rough idle that had been developed.

 

Imagine that the car was not due to a plug change for another 15K km. I just decided doing that as a precautionary measure before I went for the stage 1 map (which I haven't so far).

 

It has been serviced at Skoda dealerships and lately it had been connected to the diagnostics bench to find the cause of a leak in the air intake system (failed manifold). Now, with that history, I would expect someone must have discovered any other issues at some point...

 

Might drop by the dealership, show them the plugs and ask them to do a test for oil and compression if I can bother. Or else I will just proceed with a replacement sooner than I thought, this has been on my mind for a while for several other reasons. Car has been using roughly 250-300ml / 1000 KM and for the last year it's only done tiny commuting while cold so I don't know if it's related. It will depend how much free time I will have in my hands in the coming weeks.

 

PS. The plugs on the picture are from left to right 1 > 4, if that gives any extra clues...

Edited 17 June, 2014 by newbie69

[Rooted]

Its easy not to feel hesitation.

 

As we know,

The 1390cc Engine is a Supercharged & Turbo Charged one producing a Minimum 180 PS.

That what a 2 litre Turbo might be expected to produce,.

 

There is lots of Available Power,

and even with a Misfire you can get 130 MPH plus.

But you can also have the engine underload and then a Misfire can be detected and the ECU shuts down the Turbo or a Cylinder.

 

When a Cylinder does get enough Misfires in a Cycle you might get a Warning Light, or Both Lights.

I thrashed a car with no Warning of Misfires, but luckily i checked the plugs,

it was a few hard thrashes away from a possible Plug Tip breaking off.

 

There are reasons for 1.4 TSI Valves, Plugs & Coils Failing, & Cylinder Wear & Broken Piston Rings.

That is why there are now CTHE Engines, Different Components & Different Maps for the fueling.

 

The 1.4 TSI runs rich on start up, and a good thrash and clean out does little harm and lots of good.

as does 98 RON or better fuel.

Its just how they are.

 

?? Has your car ever had a ECU Update since you bought it?

 

I get slagged for posting this link,

But it is relevant since it list the possible Issues that Owners can Experience.

 

[Jabozuma]

 

Might drop by the dealership, show them the plugs and ask them to do a test for oil and compression if I can bother. 

 

This is part of the problem, you'd show them the plugs and they would not know what they are looking at, a plug is a plug, not new and shiny? what do you expect, came out from an engine.

What I am trying to say it is a lost art to correctly read spark plugs and arrive at diagnosis and then apply an appropriate solution.

 

I understand your motor is under warranty still?

[newbie69]

Double post.

Edited 17 June, 2014 by newbie69

[newbie69]

Its easy not to feel hesitation.

 

As we know,

The 1390cc Engine is a Supercharged & Turbo Charged one producing a Minimum 180 PS.

That what a 2 litre Turbo might be expected to produce,.

 

There is lots of Available Power,

and even with a Misfire you can get 130 MPH plus.

But you can also have the engine underload and then a Misfire can be detected and the ECU shuts down the Turbo or a Cylinder.

 

When a Cylinder does get enough Misfires in a Cycle you might get a Warning Light, or Both Lights.

I thrashed a car with no Warning of Misfires, but luckily i checked the plugs,

it was a few hard thrashes away from a possible Plug Tip breaking off.

 

There are reasons for 1.4 TSI Valves, Plugs & Coils Failing, & Cylinder Wear & Broken Piston Rings.

That is why there are now CTHE Engines, Different Components & Different Maps for the fueling.

 

The 1.4 TSI runs rich on start up, and a good thrash and clean out does little harm and lots of good.

as does 98 RON or better fuel.

Its just how they are.

Yes but if there are reasons which can cause severe damage/failure VW/Skoda should have issued a CAVE engine replacement / refurbishing / upgrade to the CTHE version. Are you suggesting that every CAVE engine not thoroughly checked (even ones that feel fine and have done all the appropriate servicing in time) could be a time-bomb followed by a huge out-of-warranty bill? Then, it's certainly not a car one would like have in his ownership.

 

What I mean is I am ok if I have to top up every now and then, I am not seeking the "best-functioning 1.4 TSI" award by any means. I am rather careful to how my car feels, sounds and drives and the moment I pick up something I will take it where it has to go. I like to thrash it whenever I get the chance and I expect it to behave impeccably under these conditions and I can't say it has ever failed me. I can also monitor the oil level but that is as far as I can go. I can't be removing plugs once per month just to make sure, or ask dealers to do compression and oil tests because I don't like the look of my plugs. Well I can, but I don't have the time or the will to be involved in such procedures in the fear of something breaking.

 

Do you think the look of those plugs, being in since 2011 (factory) and having done 45K km is so alarming for a 1.4 tsi twincharged engine?

Edited 17 June, 2014 by newbie69

[newbie69]

 

?? Has your car ever had a ECU Update since you bought it?

 

I get slagged for posting this link,

But it is relevant since it list the possible Issues that Owners can Experience.

 

 

No, it hasn't received an ECU update that I know of. Which always made me wonder how come those ECU updates I read about here have never reached France...

 

 

This is part of the problem, you'd show them the plugs and they would not know what they are looking at, a plug is a plug, not new and shiny? what do you expect, came out from an engine.

What I am trying to say it is a lost art to correctly read spark plugs and arrive at diagnosis and then apply an appropriate solution.

 

I understand your motor is under warranty still?

 

Exactly. Saying "Jabozuma" from Briskoda thinks Cylinder 1 is very hot and the engine has a problem for example, won't be bearing any fruit I suppose. It is still under the extended 5-year warranty offered from the French importer so yes. Problem is I will be leaving France soon and this warranty, since it's not from Skoda, can;t be honoured elsewhere in Europe. That is why I have to do whatever it is to be done rather soon. But my free time is very limited unfortunately.

[Rooted]

I am only suggesting that adhering to a Skoda/VW 40,000 Mile Service Schedule on the Spark Plugs can mean that plugs fail early.

 

Because of Type of Use, Fuel, Oil, & just the Plugs,.

So that needs considered.

 

Then there were Component Issues, Quality Control, & there were Updates Available to resolve Fueling Issues that were the cause of failing engines.

 

They are not Time Bombs, but anyone on this and other Forums know the possible Issues.

 

Checking & Changing Spark Plugs if Required hardly seems such a big Issue.

If it was a wasted £40, thats maybe better than a ruined Engine.  JIMO.

 

I have no Idea if French Dealerships give any importance to Doing a ECU Update at the Time of Servicing a car.

Many UK ones never bother,

But it was showing on Skoda Major Services at 20,000 mile/2 Year,

& then 2 years ago showed as Part of the Fixed Price Servicing at MInor & Major Servicing.

That is after a Diagnostic Check, 'Skoda Up Dates & Soft Ware Enhancements'.

Well for a 1.4 TSI. that is a God Send.

 

george

[Jabozuma]

Your plugs are healthy, no damage to them whatsoever. They will not fail any time soon, the old ones. Having seen them one can see what is going on inside the combustion chamber during combustion stroke which otherwise is really hard to glimpse, but has been done on specialist test beds. However, plug 1, one outmost left would indicate detonation and this will lead to engine failure on that cylinder, piston will be eaten away - hence suggestion of bore scope diagnostics.

Here you can see piston crown eaten away by detonation and alu specks all over bore and piston.

A cheap borescope http://www.screwfix.com/p/ring-automotive-rbs50-usb-borescope/10210

 

I really agree with you, you should not be checking your plugs every 3 tank fulls just to make sure they are OK to avoid potential problems. The only input into modern car an owner should have is to put petrol in, check oil from time to time (they recommend every fill up) and get it serviced regularly, that's all. Otherwise the car should have the additional maintenance requirements made clear before it was purchased! 

[vxh26]

This is part of the problem, you'd show them the plugs and they would not know what they are looking at, a plug is a plug, not new and shiny? what do you expect, came out from an engine.

What I am trying to say it is a lost art to correctly read spark plugs and arrive at diagnosis and then apply an appropriate solution.

Too damned right! Most garages would happily "fit new" and proffer a bill for the specialist work. Plugs that look that different (and awful) indicate a problem - just replacing them is not going to fix the underlying problem(s)

[Rooted]

Hence why there have been ECU Updates for the 1.4 TSI CAVE 2009-2012.

 

There were Fueling Issues, and failing spark Plugs, & the ECU Updates have helped greatly.

Sadly it seems to have not taken much importance at Dealership Workshops.

 

Reason being, The Diagnostic shows no Error Codes or Misfires and the Service Schedule was given as 40,000 miles for 

the Factory Fitted Plugs.

Very few Technicians are checking plugs before that 40,000 miles, unless really Pressed to,

or being Paid over and above the cost of a Minor or Major Service.

 

So that is Really why a started a Thread.

'Warning CAVE 1.4 TSI Check your Spark Plugs'.      There were Members and Owners with Failing Plugs.

[newbie69]

I have two questions regarding the ECU map, don't know if anybody would have an idea about them:

 

1) How can one find out his ECU's current software/map version? Can this info be obtained from the dealer or, preferrably, through VCDS? And do we have any info on which is the newer/latest ECU update for CAVE engines? a reference or something?

 

2) I wonder whether a APR stage 1 remap adresses those early CAVE issues in the same way the official ECU update does. That would mean getting the remap and the improved fueling schedule altogether, lol!

 

That been said my car is an April 2011 one so I don't know if it indeed needs an update that hasn't been received, but normally, after 3 years of Skoda servicing I reckon it should have poped up to their computer whenever it was connected to the diagnostics bench. At least at the very latest visit when the DSG oil campaign did appear...

[OzFabia]

I wonder how this product measures up. I'm not willing to be the guinea pig myself, though. http://promotech.se/?p=modelproducts&mId=5169

 

EDIT: wrong topic.  But I guess most people will look in here as well.

Edited 17 June, 2014 by OzFabia

[Rooted]

Why not ask a Skoda or VW Dealership workshop to Update the ECU to the latest one for a 1.4 TSI CAVE.

Pay to have it done. if you must.

* If there is not one, then they will tell you so.*

 

I Had a SKODA/VW ECU Update done on a CAVE 1.4 TSI just 2 months ago, it was well worth having done.

 

If you have a Skoda ECU Update, your Extended or Original Warranty still Valid if you are following Manufacturers Service Guidelines.

You can see if the cars performance improves.

 

Or just fire ahead with your APR Stage 1 Remap,

but then you are invalidating the Warranty.

 

It depends if the power up to 210 BHP is important to you.

 

george