Is there a time limit on warranty repair duration? Fuel in engine oil

[dieselV6]

After years of contributing information to this forum, now I really need your help finding what my options are. How can I force SUK to actually put some effort into repairing the car, rather than play a long winded "testing" farce? Is there any legal limit for how long new car warranty repairs should take? 

 

Background: my wife's 1.6CR Roomster that was bought new in 2012, has been at the local dealership on an off for the last 4 weeks (last 2 weeks continuously) with a serious ingress of fuel into engine oil, about 1litre / 600-1000 miles. Skoda UK first ordered injector wiring, pressure and vacuum tests, then DPF tests, nothing came up. But common sense tells me that if it is e.g. an injector spray pattern problem, it will not show in the results, to diagnose, injectors need to be either replaced or inspected out of the engine.

 

Finally, after 3 weeks SUK ordered the local dealer to drive 200 miles just to check if I was telling the truth (turns out, I did in fact tell the truth and did not pour fuel into my car's engine  :( ). When ordering this test, SUK were fully aware, in writing,  that I did similar test twice before reporting the problem and once further after an initial dealership workshop visit. SUK's latest order was to change engine temperature sensor, not based on test results, apparently just a hunch, probably also because a sensor is cheap but injectors are pricey.  Afterwards, you guessed it, SUK would like to have the dealership drive the car again for a while. There's also a serious issue of long term engine wear (mainly piston rings) and problems further down the line due to car being driven with diluted oil for 1k miles before fuel in sump was noticed.

 

So for now it appears that we paid for a nice Roomster for the dealership to drive it, while we, having bought a Roomster, are squeezing in a Fabia courtesy car plastered all over with dealership decals. In fact, my wife had to use that dealership billboard of car to attend a funeral last week, not the most appropriate car . To make things worse, we have a half-term trip abroad (2k miles total) in 3 weeks. Courtesy cars are not for use abroad, so we really need the car back in 2 weeks at the latest.  With the current attitude of the manufacturer it looks unlikely that we get the car back fixed on time, if ever.

 

I bought 3 new Skodas so far over the past 12 years, and was extremely happy with the first two. But if I cannot get this problem resolved promptly, this will be my last Skoda, ever. It already is my last 1.6CR engine ever, first warranty repair within just 6 months from new (EGT sensor), and now fuel in oil forcing full oil change once every 300-500 miles. Contrast this with 125k trouble free miles so far from my Superb. 

Frankly, as a long term Skoda car owner I could live with problems (and the 20% over-consumption) as this engine is surprisingly nice to drive. I was considering the 1.6CR Rapid very seriously, until this seemingly never-ending warranty fix experience.  Shame because outside engine troubles, the Roomster consistently proves to be a great family car.

 

If you have any ideas how to enforce prompt repairs, please help, as to me right now the Skoda new car warranty appears just an empty promise, and our car is not really usable with this much fuel going into oil. 

Edited 15 March, 2014 by dieselV6

[rwbaldwin]

Did you purchase the car from the dealer who is attempting a warranty fix?

[dieselV6]

Yes, the car was bought new at that very dealership in May 2012.

[rwbaldwin]

Good. You need to remind the dealer that you are being very patient, but if the car can't be fixed under warranty you will have to consider action against them under SOGA. You should always remember that the purchase contract was with the dealer, not SUK. If SUK can help the dealer to find a solution that's great, but at the end of the day it is the dealer who is responsible in law.

Ask if an 'Area Tech' has examined the car and if not, suggest that this happens, ASAP.

[dieselV6]

Thanks, will discuss this on Monday.

[bobspark]

Another thread with regard to fuel getting into the sump if Im reading things right.See previous thread http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/293435-turbo-failure/

Very disappointing to hear of another forum member being given the runaround by Skoda dealers.

[dieselV6]

Update: I made another complaint, and finally, parts are being replaced. engine temp sensor did not make a difference (as expected), so they finally took out injectors, and then replaced ONE injector (#2), rather than the whole set, and to make things worse, this injector does not show any obvious faults, merely readings slightly out compared to the others. I asked why not replace the whole set,  apparently SUK declined to authorize it.

 

I guess they figure it is more cost effective to annoy customers beyond reason, right up to the point where they will not buy a Skoda again. £300 "saving" on £50k-£100k lifetime revenue loss (assuming a new car purchase every 6-8 years), go figure. Someone at SUK really needs their accounting maths checked before they run out of customers.

 

And of course, you guessed it, "the car needs to be driven 200 miles by the dealership to see if problem is gone"  .  Frankly, at this pace I am hoping to get our car back around July time, with an extra 2000miles on it, as I can see 3 more injectors, 3 DPF sensors and ECU software that may be causing fuel ingress.  :(  I'm very disappointed with SUK's attitude to customers.

 

Nevertheless, thanks for your help, at least I started gathering SOGA excerpts and evidence for the Smaill Claims Court case, hopefully it will not come to that, because I would much rather have the car fixed promptly.

[rwbaldwin]

In such cases, it is usually the seal/gasket ring that is faulty or has been incorrectly installed (not using the assembly sleeve). If you're an ape, it's also quite easy to damage the channel in which the ring sits.

Have they replaced all the seals?

Did they just rely on (mis)guided diagnostics?

If it is an injector, it is usually just one injector at fault.

Write to the dealer principle and copy in SUK (show the CC on the letter) asking why a dealer cannot diagnose a simple leak.

Good luck (seems like you'll need it) :(

[stratosg]

Dear DieselV6 I wish you the best but please let me tell you that your thread comes as a capping stone to what I feel about Skoda after twelve years and three Skoda cars. In my case the culprit is the cold start timing chain rattling. My dealer told me that I have to pay for timing chain, drivers and tensioner replacement because the car is out of warranty. The only problem here is that timing chain is supposed to last as long as the engine's life lasts and there is NO WAY of performing any kind of maintenance beyond following Skoda's service schedule with religious devotion.

Since such things happens, I regret I sold my previous Octavia MK1 1.6 petrol and Fabia MK1 1.2 12v petrol for the Roomster which is a great car when it's faultless, but I do not think that I will buy a brand new Skoda again. Every time I listen to the MOTO "Simply clever" it pops up in my head "Simply never" and that's makes me sad because I do really love that car brand.

 

Please accept my apologies about taking advantage of your thread.

[dieselV6]

More updates... and more waiting. The #2 injector replacement did nothing, I asked and yes, they replaced all seals. Now they're looking at compression in one cylinder, would have to be leaking completely to leave unburnt fuel when engine is running, but that's just my personal opinion.

At least the pace has improved, SUK seems to be actively involved. Still, no fix yet.

[rwbaldwin]

...Now they're looking at compression in one cylinder...

What! Why don't they just check the compression on all four if they suspect fuel is getting past the rings - about 30 minutes. I'm all for not replacing expensive parts without proper diagnosis, but this is nuts.

[dieselV6]

I think this cylinder gives slightly lower compression readings than the 3 others, that's why they're looking at it. 

[hertsnminds]

I would be writing to the dealer, copy to SUK telling them what your are prepared to accept and when you will reject the car as non repairable. As long as you give them a reasonable set of terms then there is no reason for them not to pull their finger out. For example a letter stating you will give them 4 weeks to resolve all issues with your vehicle and will only accept a loan car of the same or higher specification whilst you are waiting is not unreasonable. After that time you will reject the car as not fit and non repairable.

[dieselV6]

Hi, another update: the dealership phoned me this morning and offered arranging a better spec hire car for the trip abroad. A reasonable offer, but I declined, because I need something I know and can be sure of its uninterrupted performance and equipment for a 2000mile+ trip. We have already decided to take my Superb, and I will switch to courtesy one once I fly back (my family and the car stay abroad for half term, I have to work). Aside from 20% higher fuel bill for the Superb, working out to around £100 for the trip (admittedly in return for more comfort and speed),  not much harm done on this particular issue.

 

In Service News , the Roomster's engine has waited for the last 4 days for yet another tool for some kind of hot compression/leakage test, but from what the service told me, the Roomie is now clearly heading for an engine replacement, the only question is how large(block or complete). A bit extreme for a fuel leak into engine oil, but I guess they cannot pinpoint the source. I am resigned to wait for the completion of repairs,or till end of half term, whichever comes earlier. 

 

Regarding rejection suggestions, I would much rather have our Roomster fully fixed than rejected/refunded, as I have put ca 2 weeks worth of effort into equipment on this car, as you can see in my other thread here . My remark from this thread, written nearly 2 years ago, just about sums up my current thoughts: "I am buying new cars to drive them fuss free, not to spend time at a dealership waiting for warranty fixes"

[bobspark]

Lets hope they put a new engine in and have done with it!

Thanks for update,sometimes you read of tales of woe on this forum,and never hear the outcome.

Hope it all works out OK.

[jimbof]

I think engine replacement is the least they can offer.  I mean, who would knowingly want to long-term own a car which has been running on one-fifth diesel instead of oil for thousands of miles?!

[dieselV6]

Still waiting for the dealer to come back with the news on the repair/retest, but once completed we are supposed to get extended warranty for the car. Hopefully the extended warranty will last long enough to replace another engine More seriously, what matters to me is that it will cover the turbocharger, the rest of oil-dependent parts get replaced with the short block engine.

[dieselV6]

Hi, got the car back just over a week ago, drove 300+ miles since and no sign of fuel in oil :sun: . As an added bonus, fuel consumption is now spot on urban economy numbers, i.e. 15% less than it used to be, so whatever was wrong with the engine block, must have happened at the factory. 

 

I had a good look over the engine from top and bottom, and apart from several minor niggles, the quality of work carried out by the dealership appears to be very good, quite in contrast to my past experience with another dealership workshop (that actually managed to break my Octavia's engine). The minor slip-ups were as follows: the glow plug cables were placed under fuel return line instead of above (already swapped back, not as trivial as it sounds due to clearance issues), center 2 plastic pegs holding the front grille were broken (daft design,already replaced), mice or some other animal chewed on the felt engine jacket at the bottom (taped over), and clutch release bearing makes a faint noise when fully pressed, possibly due to some misalignment/insufficient grease. But otherwise the clutch works very well, so I just reported it to the dealership in case the noise gets worse and left it at that. One slight long term concern I have is the head gasket, as I heard the usual "if coolant level is low please top it up", which is a mark of not refilling the engine head fully before starting the engine after repairs. But even if it was overheated, it will take a few thousand miles of driving before any leaks are evident. 

 

But still, given my past experience with other dealership workshops and the size of the job (everything on the engine had to come apart) , it could have been much worse.  So thank you Progress Skoda in Letchworth for a job well done. 

 

I am still waiting for a confirmation of the extended warranty from SUK, we are supposed to complete this over the phone around 22nd April, but so long as there is no backtracking on extended warranty and/or any further problems with this engine, I might yet consider the 1.6CR engine again... after 5-7 years of fault free operation. 1.6CR drives very well, particularly on the motorway, and with a good block it uses less fuel than the 1.9TDI did, but given its malfunction history in the Roomster, it will take some time for me to warm up to this engine again.

Edited 12 April, 2014 by dieselV6

[Brimma]

Glad you finally got your individual case sorted

 

But I can't help but remember all the slagging off you gave the 1.6 CRD engine in general economy terms, which admittedly in your case was poor, but in many many other cases was very very good

 

It could well be that your comments have actually cost Skoda UK more in sales than they have achieved from you over the years?

[dieselV6]

Well, I have reported my experience and the consistently poor fuel economy truthfully, and so did many other people, while a certain group of Skoda fanatics took a great deal of effort to discredit every post. Given that my 1.6CR had faulty block from factory, but it only manifested itself after nearly 2 years and 16k miles of driving with fuel in oil, who knows how many more faulty block 1.6CRs are still there? If you go and complain about fuel economy to the dealership or SUK, you will hear the usual "you must be driving it wrong" BS. Your engine for sure will not be replaced just on poor fuel consumption, even the very evident fuel in oil issue (would work out to 10l of fuel in oil between services) took several complaints to SUK and 6 weeks to get sorted. Around 2012 Skoda had a lot of engine recalls, refer to e.g. Fabia vRS with 20% engine replacement likelihood on a new car.

 

In as much as I like Skodas and will continue driving them for as long as it is feasible, the recent cars do not match the 1998-2008 lot reliability wise. My 8 year old Superb has 127k+ miles on it and drives as new, no warranty issues, no breakdowns, just regular DIY servicing (including the belts) and 3 CV boots. This is how a Skoda car ownership should look like (and how it did look like for the Mk1 Octavia we had earlier), pure value for money.  In contrast, spending 6+ weeks in warranty repairs is a known mark of other brands, e.g. Mercedes.

[rwbaldwin]

...Hi, got the car back just over a week ago, drove 300+ miles since and no sign of fuel in oil :sun: . As an added bonus, fuel consumption is now spot on urban economy numbers, i.e. 15% less than it used to be, so whatever was wrong with the engine block, must have happened at the factory...

I'm so glad it's fixed - shame it took so long.

Your 15% reduced fuel usage means that about 18% of your fuel was ending up in the oil! I'm not sure I believe the faulty block (casting), but at least the short block replacement solved the problem.

[dieselV6]

"Short block engine" replacement is actually the block, all moving parts within the block, bottom end, basically everything in this area except engine head. Still, it is a pity that they did not inspect the block, I did ask about it but got an honest reply that SUK only paid the dealership to replace the block, not to strip it down. For all we know, there could've been a 10p sized hole in #3 piston, though more likely it was a scored cylinder wall or a faulty piston ring (or even a missing one).

 

The 15% was probably wasted on poor hot compression (or was it cold, I know one of them turned out to be poor on #3 cylinder), i.e. going up in the air/exhaust rather than staying in oil. I guess over time the leak increased enough for fuel to settle on oil and ending up in the sump. Just before replacement, I'd guess around 1% of fuel used was actually ending up in oil, about a pint every 400-500 miles. 

 

Thanks again for your help, it did help to put the repairs on the right track, even if a slow one.

[dieselV6]

Just to update and keep track, after another 1000miles the #2 injector feed pipe sprung a leak at injector end, spraying fuel on top of the engine. Following earlier block replacement, I checked the car after 500 miles and it was still fine, but last weekend we went to/from Paris, leak must have developed during that trip, thankfully it was heavy rain on the way back, reducing fire risk. I had a chat with Service Manager at Progress Letchworth, and he mentioned that coating on these pipes wears off after just several accesses to injectors, causing leaks (no surprise at 1850bars of pressure). In view of past SUK ordered diagnosis efforts it seems plausible (#2 injector pipe was removed at least 3 times). 

The dealership promptly replaced all 4 injector pipes under warranty today, so no harm done, but as far as unreliability and hassle go, this particular 1.6CR diesel just cannot shake off its checkered past.

 

On the plus side, we got a DSG diesel Rapid as a courtesy car for the morning, and the first sight of the Mk1 Octavia sized boot was greeted with delight by my other half (though the DSG was not, but she managed).  As versatile as the Roomster is for outsized loads (furniture, bikes etc), you can just chuck daily use items, shopping and/or luggage into Octy/Rapid dimensioned boot and somehow everything will fit without a second thought, it was our consistent experience when we had our Octy. I also noticed that the so called "boot dish" accessory is now much deeper than it was for the Mk1 , an excellent add on IMHO, especially in view of poorish sound insulation around the boot area (rigid parcel shelf). Come on Skoda, put a 2.0CR TDI in the Rapid, even de-tuned to 125bhp or similar, and I will forgive you my 1.6CR "new car experience" so far...

Edited 3 June, 2014 by dieselV6