Alternator clutch sounds like it is departing - safe to drive?

[jimbof]

So I've just noticed this morning a hideous squeal / vibration when I have the engine running, car stopped with handbrake on and turn the steering wheel left / right 30-40 degrees or so.  Sounds to be coming from the alternator, so I guess the alternator clutch is soon to shuffle off this mortal coil (or has already gone).  Anyhow, I have a 55 mile drive home tonight - is it driveable?

[rotodiesel]

Slacken the aux belt tensioner (19AF hex) and slip the belt off the alternator pulley. Try to rock the pulley relative to the alternator - if there is significant free movement you are on borrowed time. I have seen sprag pulleys make an (expensive) journey through the radiator when worn out.

 

I would suggest renewing the sprag pulley as a precaution after about 80k miles. Note that Bosch and Valeo machines use different rotor shaft holding tools although the splined ring nut is the same for both. They can be a bit tight to get off.

 

rotodiesel.

[jimbof]

Thanks roto.  Unfortunately don't have any tools with me, nor really the confidence at the "greasy end"...

 

Guess I am on borrowed time at 114,000 now then.

 

When I fired up the engine a moment ago I got the squeal through one cycle of the steering wheel, and then it stopped to be replaced by a much quieter noise.  It is obviously not right though.  I notice the back side of the belt, and the tensioner undeneath the pulley are both a little bit rusty.  Perhaps related?

Edited 22 April, 2014 by jimbof

[jimbof]

Well as it had only started happening I got the car home and have left it there (on the train this week it looks like...)

 

Took the engine cover off this morning, I can see the alternator is a Valeo part number 028 903 031 A, from the looks of it a 120A part.

 

Rather than mess around taking the pulley off, how about changing the whole alternator?  I lack tools and workshop facilities to get off the old pulley, but I guess an alternator swap could be within my capabilities.  Was looking on the Eurocarparts site; confusingly they list a 140 and 120A (claiming the 140A is for heated seats... mine has heated seats front and back plus electric everything, and still only 120A fitted). ECP list Bosch, Lucas, and RTX, all at 120 and 140A.  I've already discounted the RTX, but are the Bosch and Lucas parts replacements for the Valeo (bearing in mind your comments on different tools, I wonder if also different fitments)?  I would myself usually go for Bosch given the option.

 

The Bosch 120A is only £133, or £154 for the 140A.

 

As an aside; on the 120A vs 140A, could an under spec alternator be the reason my car has had 3 batteries in it's lifetime?

 

I spy a total of 3 bolts to get the alternator out - it can't be as simple as slacken the tensioner and remove those 3 bolts, can it?  I can feel a surge of unfounded confidence...

[Flurry]

I've had a similar thing recently, upon starting the car it makes a noise somewhere between rolling a loose ball bearing around a metal tube and sucking on a straw that's half in a drink. The noise subsides somewhat once the engine is warm, sounding more like the rattle of a can of spray paint. The garage have informed me that it's the alternator clutch on it's way out - having it changed tomorrow so hopefully that'll sort it!

[rotodiesel]

The 120 and 140A alternators have the same frame size - meaning that the 120A machine will give a higher output at idle and low speeds. In practice, it's a more useful machine and will not be the cause of short battery life if running conditions are normal and there are no parasitic drains (common on the B5.5). It would be worth checking the voltage regulator setting: 13.8 - 14.2V at the battery at hot idle without load.

 

Getting the alternator out on a 1.9PD is not straightforward as the bottom fixing bolt fouls the fan clutch. There are two approaches: release the fan bearing at the back (hole provided for an 8AF hex key if you hold the fan drive drum - RH thread) or else you can release the bottom bolt, saw the head off the bolt and re-assemble with an M8 stud and a nut. This allows the alternator to be easily removed at any time.

 

I would warn aginst re-built alternators. Most are rubbish and will be in a worse state than yours. The Valeo machines are reliable - get an Independent to change the pulley or take the machine off and take it to an alternator specialist for a pulley change. Note that 1.9PD engines use a 5 or a 6 groove pulley - make sure you get the correct part.

 

Obviously, if your pulley has been defective for some time, the alternator would not have been properly driven - hence the flat batteries.

 

rotodiesel.

Edited 23 April, 2014 by rotodiesel

[jimbof]

Thanks for the reply; found a couple of howto's so have the VW3212 equivalent counterhold tool on order for the fan mounting, though your comment on the remanufactured alternators makes me question my plan (my "man" can't do it until next week, and I hate finding a new one, which givens me an excuse to tinker...!). 

 

Are even remanufactured Bosch (by Bosch) to be considered poor substitutes (which is what I'd go for from ECP)?  My understanding was this would be what you'd get from TPS or dealer anyway (though I guess that isn't a mark of quality, seeing as they still send out pollen filter housings with that cr@p seal fitted...! )

 

I'll check the belt / pulley fitted at the moment when I get home.  All the alternators listed by ECP are 5PK for my Superb reg no, though, which I guess denotes 5 groove?

 

EDIT: I can see from an old photo I have on the phone that I have a 5PK belt fitted, which must mean a 5PK pulley too.

Edited 23 April, 2014 by jimbof

[rotodiesel]

You don't need the counterhold tool - the trick is to place a piece of folded sandpaper (rough sides out) about 4" long between the fan drum and the belt, then just tighten the belt slightly with the hex on the adjuster. This gives enough grip to release the bolt at the back.

 

I use this method every time for cambelt changes and it always works. Re-assembly is the reverse of.

 

The part number you gave in an earlier post is the VAG part number for the alternator - not a Valeo number.

 

I have found that you really need to watch ECP for dubious brands (Indian/Chinese) and be absolutely sure what you are getting. If it's not a brand you recognise - forget it. They have a knack of using brand names with "Teutonic sounding" names...

 

I would recommend getting the alternator off and purchasing the correct INA freewheel pulley for your car - GSF may help. Then either fit it yourself or get it done for the price of a beer at an alternator shop.

 

rotodiesel.

[jimbof]

Thanks, after reading an article about "Bosch" remanufactured units (http://ednixon.com/pix/Alternators.html) I'm going to buy the pulley and fit it / get it fitted.  Don't know how much truth there is in the article, but found a few other posts from people claiming to have bought faulty Bosch remanufactured units from ECP and having a right royal palaver trying to get it sorted.

 

For the pulley, GSF only have a "ZEN" part, which is Brazilian-made it seems.  TPS have it on the shelf at £68+VAT, the Skoda outfit want £73+VAT with a 2 day wait, so looks like I'll get one from TPS.

 

Does the sandpaper trick assume the belt is junk and being changed?

[rotodiesel]

The sandpaper does no damage to the belt whatever - it's working on the smooth side of the belt. Judge the belt on its merits - if you decide to change it, the aircon drive belt has to come off which requires undertray removal - don't you just love VAG designs?

 

If you're in a hurry, I would go for the TPS option - but it seems very dear. I'm sure I've seen INA pulleys cheaper elsewhere. You need the splined key and rotor holding tool (triple-square for the Valeo) if you do the job yourself. It's tight.

 

rotodiesel.

[jimbof]

Thanks, I will be leaving the belt I think (assuming I guess also that the automatic tensioner hasn't been damaged).

 

Light was fading so just did test run of working out the belt tensioner, and popped the cap off the alternator.  Couldn't see with the car in one piece so got the snake-cam out... this alternator is definitely fitted with T50 on the rotor, not triple square...

Weird.  Amazon on their listing for the tools also state the T50 based tool is for Bosch, but a guy in the review says he used it for Valeo as the triple square didn't work.  So perhaps the rule isn't as clear as it seems...!

[rotodiesel]

Wierd as you say - my Valeo machine has the identical VAG part number to the one you gave earlier. A triple square key definitely fits the rotor...

 

rotodiesel.

[jimbof]

As you say, from a little googling the TPS part is expensive.

 

So the part fitted at present is an INA F225653-10 - which cross-references in the INA web catalog to 

535 0005 10 Alternator Freewheel Clutch

 

EAN 4005108193001 

 

Amazon have started selling INA parts directly, so got it for £39... we shall see when it arrives!

[rotodiesel]

Thanks for the part reference, I'll note it down - VAG's mark up on third party parts is considerable. It pays to source from the OE supplier and shop around.

 

Best of luck getting it off - let us know how it went.

 

rotodiesel.

[jimbof]

You are welcome.  

 

Just checking I'm not being dumb - I put the sandpaper under the topmost part of the belt on the fan pulley, and am turning the 8mm hex counter clockwise as viewed from the hex head (ie standard undo direction)?, while applying a little pressure on the 19mm tensioner release backwards (ie clockwise viewed from the front?)

 

I only seem to be succeeding in rotating the pulley and pulling the sandpaper through.  Perhaps my sandpaper isn't coarse enough (have folded it over, sand paper side out, around 180grit).  Or perhaps it was done up really tight by someone with the counerhold...

[rotodiesel]

Your method is correct - if you had a cambelt change done by a dealer, the fan bearing bolt probably had the gorilla treatment. It's a normal right hand thread and you will find when it comes out that the bolt has a fine pitch thread - so the tightening torque of 45Nm is perfectly adequate.

 

Use coarse sandpaper and pull the belt fairly tight with the 19AF hex on the adjuster. A second person may be useful to tension the belt.

 

rotodiesel.

[jimbof]

Gave it another go.  There is no issue of grip between the belt and the fan pulley, even without sandpaper - turning the 8mm counterclockwise pulls the aux belt with it, and even turns the AC belt / crankshaft pulley.  Turning the aux belt tensioner clockwise with the 19mm doesn't seem to make it really much tighter at all, and it doesn't really want to go in that direction (feels more like I'm trying to bend it than pivot it as it does in the release direction).

 

I have the counterhold tool arriving tomorrow, so will use that to sort the fan pulley out.  I've taken the belt off in preparation; and got round to looking at the pulley on the alternator.  It is seized solid in both directions with a plastic tool in the alternator fan :(  Which I understand probably means that my tensioner is kaput, and I guess the belt may be stretched, which might be a clue as to why the sandpaper magic doesn't work... :( 

[jimbof]

Well, the pin wrench tool arrived and it made taking the fan off a piece of cake.  Well worth £8 of my money (got this Laser 5281 copy http://www.lasertools.co.uk/item.aspx?item=7774).  

 

So I've got the alternator off. You're not wrong about the pulley being a little bit tight...  I can't see me getting that off with the tools I have.

 

Little gotcha for anyone buying the Laser 3404 tool set for the pulley - Laser have in their wisdom placed a little clip over the end of the T50 (not shown in their photos) to keep the spline tool together with it.  Quite a nice touch you think, until you realise that this alternator has the T50 right up close to the spline, so close in fact that with the clip in place the spline will only just mate.  I realised before using the tool, but I'd imagine it has caught one or two out and given themselves a much harder job than needed.

 

I've decided now that the Superb is going to be my route to a bit more mechanical know-how - it is no longer worth enough to upset me if I really mess up...!  I'd like to give it one last go by hand before taking it somewhere; what kind of thing would you use?  At the moment I only have standard length 1/2" ratchet and 17mm spanner for the spine.  

Edited 26 April, 2014 by jimbof

[Nackuk]

http://nackuk.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/skoda-superb-timing-belt.html

 

scroll down to section 6 and there are some photos of me taking mine off.

[jimbof]

Many thanks, brilliant set of photos, thanks for sharing

 

I have the pulley off.  I ended up getting a 12V impact driver from Machine Mart (£30) which took it off in a couple of seconds, with just the 17mm impact socket onto the Laser spline tool (no torx inserted)... that was after I realised I'd probably done a little bit of tightening by mis-reading something somewhere (d'oh...)

 

What is interesting is I can see the pulley moves between being totally locked in both directions, and rotating in both directions (not very smoothly though).  It is obviously quite broken.

 

The next stumbling block is going to be getting the new one on and torqued.  I bought an "economical" torque wrench, and unless I'm much mistaken the torque setting only works in the clockwise direction - is that common or just an issue with cheaper ones, or is it probably broken?  I saw in your pictures it didn't look like you torqued yours up?

Edited 28 April, 2014 by jimbof

[Nackuk]

I might have not had enough hands at the time to have taken a photo or just plain forgot to take one. It is to be torqued to 80NM from the skoda manual. My torque wrench works both ways. I change mine with cam belt each time proberably over kill but when you've got the front of the car off you might as well do it all - as when it breaks it can't half make a mess of things.

[jimbof]

New INA alternator pulley arrived today, took me about 30 minutes to assemble onto the car.  All working so job done for now.
The new pulley is definitely right part when cross-referenced through the INA website (see below); though notably a little different.  Colour is different; pulley design is different; and if you put the two side by side the new pulley is very slightly taller (the extra height is all at the cap end of the pulley, less than a mm I reckon).

 

INA  535 0005 10  Alternator Freewheel Clutch  

General:

EAN  4005108193001

Criteria:

for manufacturer number  F-225653.06/.07/.10

for manufacturer number  F-225653.11

for manufacturer number  F-552699.XX

Supplementary Article/Supplementary Info 2  Requires special tools for mounting

 

Two pulleys side by side:

A small gallery of some images of the pulleys and packaging:

 

Got the new tensioner and belt in the boot of the car, that is my next job now once I get a moment and a bit more courage.

Many thanks to all for the help and putting up with my dumb questions.   

 

Very useful tip I read somewhere else - use a socket and the bolt backwards to pull the threaded bosses back out of the alternator a fraction to make refitting much less difficult.

Edited 29 April, 2014 by jimbof

[jimbof]

Thanks Nackuk.  I am going to pick up a better wrench - this one is heading back to Amazon at great speed as it is less than useful.  Very annoying when it is sold as "reversible".  

 

I had to settle for the moment with getting to know what the various torques felt like in the hand on the old pulley (by undoing them with the clicking wrench after I'd put them on), and I've almost certainly overtightened it a bit.  Not ideal I know, and I certainly won't be employing that tactic with anything else.  At least I was able to use the torque wrench for the fan clutch bolt.

 

I am guessing my pulley is as old as the car, as are the rest of the tensioners (cam tensioner excepted - it is on it's third cambelt now).

[Nackuk]

If you are changing the tensioner ensure you follow the instructions on setting it up correctly - not hard but must be done.

 

The torques are just as much to do with not overtighening as they are for not undertightening. And sometimes you just cannot get a torque wrench in so what you have done here is good practice for future.

[jimbof]

Thanks - I'm not terribly sure which instructions you are talking about though!  I bought the manuals from ERWIN and I can see from there the two fixings torqued to 25Nm (the INA tensioner I bought came with a new fixing which goes through the spacer, is the lower fixing reused or replaced?), and I also see a note to put the spacer in the right place.  The tensioner came with a very brief pamphlet saying to prime it 3 times.   

Anything else you can point me at?  Thanks.