Oil leakage on '03 Fabia Estate with BBY engine

[gewstarr]

Hi guys!

 

Problems keep occurring to me and this car, it seems.

 

Now, the other day I noticed there was a small puddle under the bonnet on our parking lot. Of course I got worried, but soon found that coolant as well as brake fluid were still topped up. Oil on the other hand, pretty low, which is funny since I topped it up just a week ago or so. Now, tonight I took the car to a gas station with DIY hall (thus a car lift) so I got to see under it. I shot a video demonstrating on the entire situation.

 

 

It's obvious that we have a leak, but the question is where. It seems like the oil plug has some leakage, but I took a 19 mm spanner and checked it and it wasn't loose or anything. There is no gasket on my oil plug (never have been since I bought the car) but only some sort of metal piece. Perhaps it's simply a gasket made out of metal? It looks like this, anyways.

 

Oh, I guess this could explain a bit(!) of the leakage, but far from all of it. Also, in the video it's obvious that there are more oil. It seems like there are nasty oil all around the oil box. Do you find it likely (judging from the video) that the big gasket inside the oil sump is starting to collapse? Please, say no.

 

Thing is, at first I was really hoping for it to be only the oil filter leaking, since I know that last time I changed oil + filter I did not comply with the strict recommendation to only use hand force when tightening the filter. I (stupid) used a big (32 mm or so) socket to fully tighten it. Now, in the video (about 1 minute and 40 seconds in) you can see the filter, and it's really messy.

 

I was thinking, I know I can change the oil filter myself, but starting dissembling the entire oil sump and it's gasket feels like a much more difficult task. I'm guessing it's more or less like removing/reinstalling engine top, i.e. you can't just tighten all the bolts holding the oil sump out of general feeling, but you need (or should) use something like a torque wrench, to assure that all bolts is similarly fastened.

 

Gosh, I'm a bad mood.

 

By judging of this video, do you think that there is a slight chance that the leak is actually only coming from oil filter and drain plug? I mean that it has just simply spread around these other areas by the natural tendency of oil to spill around? Please tell me it is. Well, of course I want your honesty. Actually, any input on this would be much appreciated.

 

Cheers!

[Taylor93]

Things i would suggest:

 

Starting with Sump plug, they have a copper washer which as you rightly said is acting as a gasket so to speak. renew that as it may help stop the profuse leak at the sump plug. I would also remove the Oil filter, purchase a new one, one thing yuo should also do is apply a thin layer of oil to the rubber ring on the filter. this is to aide its sealing and to help stop leaks provided it is done up hand tight and not over tightened.

 

secondly it appears to be leaking a little from the edge of the sump and especially at the gearbox end. This could indicate a worn crankshaft end seal. This would involve removing the gearbox/clutch to replace it. To stop any leaks from the sump you would need to remove the exhaust from the down pipe to centre box (as its all one piece) then the sump must be refitted with a 2-3mm bead of sealant around its perimeter (going around the inside edge of each bolt hole) and each m6 bolt torqued to 15Nm. if they are uneven they could cause a leak.

 

I would start at the Oil filter and pulg as they are the things you most recently touched. once you have replaced them, check if it is still leaking, if so then it maybe a bit more expensive. Start with the cheap fix first

 

good luck with it

[sepulchrave]

Replace the oil filter and clean everything up properly, then see what other leaks there are.

 

Edit: There is no copper washer on these sump plugs, just a captive steel washer, if it's still leaking replace the entire sump plug and clean thoroughly before refitting the new one.

Edited 21 July, 2014 by sepulchrave

[gewstarr]

Guys, I'm back.

 

To be honest, I didn't bother doing anything about this mess. I've simply dealt with having to add oil more or less frequently. Yeah, lately, it has indeed become frequently.

Sometimes the oil level will stick for a week or so, but then another week all of a sudden I need to add ~½ liter to make it reach the sweet spot on the dip stick.

Now, I've decided to give it a go before it gets really cold. Car on axle stands on a parking lot in Swedish winter is not a really good offset for any DIY task, I can tell you.

 

Well, today I went to a hall with lift and filmed another short clip from under the car. As it seems to me, the leakage is mainly coming from (all around) the oil pan sealant.

 

 

I'm guessing the sealant they did when the car rolled out the factory 2003 is worn and simply needs to be replaced. I found this great tutorial on how the task should be done.

From reading, it seems more or less like a bolt-off-bolt-on mission, but of course, you always run into some sort of unexpected mishap.

I thought I'd ask, has any of you guys own experience on dealing with (e.g. replacing) the oil pan on a Mk1 Fabia. Someone who might have a hint/advice or two?

 

The official workshop manual says you're supposed to use silicone sealant D176404A2, but it seems kind of expensive and to be honest, shouldn't any heat-resistant silicone sealant do?

We have Swedish equivalency to British Halfords called Biltema and I'm thinking about buying their own product (see English product sheet).

Judging from the specifications, I think it'll do the trick. Only thing is I don't know how long it takes to harden and so, i.e. compared to that REINZOSIL™ stuff that Skoda / VW recommends.

 

Anyways, any hint/tip/advice here would be much appreciated.

For example, good solution for getting rid of the old sealant residues, Acetone and a scraper?

I would lie if I said I'm not pretty damn nervous about doing this.

 

Cheers!

[sepulchrave]

Use a soft scraper since both the engine block and the sump are alloy, make sure the mating faces are very clean and dry using brake cleaner, clean the oil pickup screen while the sump's off, don't overtighten the bolts when you refit or the sump will be distorted and not seal properly, don't use too much sealant, a thin uniform bead is all that's required, use the opportunity to change the oil filter as well as the oil. Don't worry about curing time, it takes 24 hours to cure completely but will seal straight away.

[poiuytre111]

I would certainly do the oil filter first as the oil here is under pressure. Many years ago at the start of my car diy career I replaced a cartridge filter fitting a new rubber ring on the block, not realising there was still an old ring on the filter - had similar results with massive oil loss.

[gewstarr]

Thanks for quick responses, guys.

Much helpful, like always.

Actually, I've changed both oil and filter several times since this whole started, and I'm pretty sure there is no O-ring left on either of the surfaces. I've read about this before so I've looked thorough. Besides, judging from the looks of it (video), it seems kind of obvious that the source of the leak is the sealant around the pan. However, I could — of course — be missing out on some common misunderstanding in how the nastyness of it all spreads.

Very well. When I have removed the pan, will I get a visual on the oil pump in there? I'm guessing the day this breaks you need to go this way as well. Perhaps a good time to do it, rather sooner than later? Or wait, now I remember, the old but delicate saying; "If it ain't broken, don't fix it!", so I guess I better not mess with this part.

Great advice with the soft scraper @sepulchrave (I recall you have helped me out before on this forum). If you hadn't mentioned it, I would probably have ruined the pan, or even worse, surface bottom of the engine, using a cold chisel or something.

Skickat från min GT-I9506 via Tapatalk

Edited 2 October, 2015 by gewstarr

[TMB]

Even if you can see the oil pump there will be nothing you can check apart from making sure the strainer is clear. I wouldn't bother about touching the pump in any way.

[rum4mo]

From the first video clip, it looks like the sump is steel, ie the video clip shows it painted black - which is strange for a BBY engine, as said if you try to keep the sump clean of oil you should be able to work out where it is coming from.

 

Maybe look further up to make sure that the oil separator O-rings or not the source of the oil leak, also, are you sure that the oil level dropping is mainly due to these leaks, I've had trouble with the oil separator causing the engine in draw oil in with the air - replacing oil separator sorted that out.

 

Other crazy idea, if that car has a steel sump and not aluminium sump - aluminium sump has ribs across the bottom face - then is that sump starting to become porous and weeping oil, so really try keeping the front face of the sump clean to see if oil is coming through any rusty areas, for what it is worth, the later versions of these engines did have steel sumps and they rust very quickly, for instance, my daughter's late 2009 Ibiza SC 1.4 has had to get its sump cleaned up and repainted twice already.

 

On tightening the filter, I think that new filters now have a torque figure quoted on them, so "lightly" tightening with that socket should be okay, have you tried to see if all the sump securing bolts are tight?

 

Edit:- helpful bit of advice - get hold of  an old SAAB 95 ?! (I do mean 95 and not 9-5)

Edited 3 October, 2015 by rum4mo

[gewstarr]

Thanks for your further input, guys, much(!) appreciated.

Now, today I went ahead and cleaned the whole oil pan plus gearbox thorough with motor cleaner followed by high pressure wash. After a few cycles, everything was clean.

Then, I drove for more than an hour, and then I got back to the service hall and looked again. The result was really worse than I had wished for.

As you can see, it's more or less clean around the pan, but you can see how oil has leaked close to the gearbox/crank(?). Damn it, I'm guessing this suddenly makes the solution more advanced than a simple re-fitting of the pan. Am I looking at a replacement of crankshaft seal? This involves removal of the timing belt as well, correct? This is nothing I think I'll be going myself.



Yeah, it's a BBY engine. I called local Skoda garage earlier and they told me it's a steel oil pan on my car. Guy even told me that these are less sensitive than aluminium oil pans when it comes to removal/install so I could probably use after-market silicone without problems if I decided to do it myself. Maybe most Mk1's uses steel, whereas Mk2's have aluminium pans? I wouldn't know.

Anyways, this doesn't matter, since we're probably looking at a far more difficult task, right? Garage will probably charge me a fortune for changing crankshaft seal.

Ideas? It couldn't be something else, could it?

Nah, I'm not much of a Saab fan! ;-) Edited 5 October, 2015 by gewstarr

[TMB]

It looks like it's coming from the crank oil seal to me. Gearbox out job :(

[rum4mo]

Okay, so a SAAB 95 is not an option, okay!  I'm thinking that your engine could have more than one fault and that would mean that it might not be time to replace the crankshaft seal yet. You have washed the car engine etc so it is just residual oil that is running out from the clutch area, but, have you checked and cleaned out the crankcase oil fumes pipework etc, if that is choked, the crankcase will be getting pressurised more than normal and it might just be forcing oil out past that oil seal. One other thing, if you are also have a oil separator that is faulty, it will be forcing the engine to consume more oil than it should leading you to think that all the "used" oil is escaping past this oil seal.  If you check over the "engine breathing" parts to make sure they are all clear, then use the car for a week and see if it is still leaking as much oil, then I'd think that it would be time to sort out that oil seal.

 

After all that, I'd still paint that sump to stop it rotting and then leaking!

Edited 6 October, 2015 by rum4mo

[Breezy_Pete]

One way to investigate the breather (PCV) system is to loosen the oil filler cap while the engine is running. The crankcase pressure should really be below atmospheric, so that the cap is pulled back down if you try to lift it.

[gewstarr]

@TMB,
That's what a local non-authorized garage told me. They served me a nasty quote too.

@rum4mo,
You bet. This engine is probably filled with cracks in several places. It's only weird I don't seem to have motor oil and coolant mixed just yet. Anyways, speaking of several issues, I cross-reference to my recent revival of an old antifreeze load thread. As you may see there, I'm walking the plank just about now.

@Wino,
So I've heard. Engine almost dying when removing the lid is a better sign than it revving up, right? I'll do that test tomorrow, and get back with stats.

Now, likewise my ill attempt of solution to the coolant issue, I did a similar hocus pocus additive to the engine oil. It's told to make crank seal soft again, and some people on some forums actually seem to have had good experience with it.



It'll probably not do magic, but anyways, after pouring it in there we took a real day trip (>200 kilometres, back and forth), and dip stick still shows oil to be in the middle of the mark, just like after I topped it all up. I will investigate further in a couple of days.

Cheers!

Edited 12 October, 2015 by gewstarr