fault code 17573 now!

[Brit24]

After a month of getting 17560 - too lean, I changed the MAF and reset the code.

It was running fine for 6 days and today 17573 popped up!

This is a rich limit.

Well I had pinging before changing the MAF and after everything was much smoother and ran fine. (always better on the richer side than lean)

 

17573 P1165 Long term fuel trim 1, bank 1 - above rich limit

 

I have reset the code 17573 just to see how long it takes to appear again.

 

Any suggestions/experiences with these changing codes?

 

It was suggested on my other thread that the O2 sensor could be playing up. It was changed by the previous owner just before I bought it but no idea what they installed.

 

Thanks

Edited 2 August, 2014 by Brit24

[Brit24]

btw

the replacement MAF was an aftermarket one! I know what you will say.

At least it stopped it from running lean which is a dangerous condition as we all know.

Can different make MAFs show up different fault codes?

 

Or could this be leading to a faulty  precat O2 sensor again?

[Brit24]

Any suggestions guys?

 

I'll wait to see when the code pops up again and hope someone can guide me.

[rwbaldwin]

You may find it pops up only once, now you have replaced the MAF. Clearing the fault code, resets the fuel trims. It's only a problem if the code comes back. If it does come back, make sure you read all the codes.

[Brit24]

You may find it pops up only once, now you have replaced the MAF. Clearing the fault code, resets the fuel trims. It's only a problem if the code comes back. If it does come back, make sure you read all the codes.

ok thanks. fingers crossed you're right.

 

If it does come back I only have a simple reader which doesn't give full details (just the main codes). Would have to take it to the garage which I'd rather not. Was mentioned it could be a cheap dodgy O2 sensor the garage fitted before I bought the car. I can change that myself quite easily I assume.

[Brit24]

Driving to Wales today, first A5 then M54 motorway, then after lots of hilly roads the warning light came on again!

Same code! Crud.

 

I did notice when I put it in 3rd (instead of Drive) and was going up hill at 3500 rpm I thought the engine would pull well up to much higher revs but it wouldn't get over 3500 rpm in 3rd!

 

So what next? Could this be the aftermarket MAF or should I be looking at the lambda next?

 

Cheers

[kentphil1]

If you have VCDS or can get access to it you could try doing this - http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Fuel_Trim_Info

 

Sounds like either your MAF may have gone again or you may have an airleak in the system

[Brit24]

If you have VCDS or can get access to it you could try doing this - http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Fuel_Trim_Info

 

Sounds like either your MAF may have gone again or you may have an airleak in the system

I did expect the car to pull up to redline in 3rd up that hill. It pulled ok to 3500 and then just wouldn't go further. 5 mins after that the warning light came on.

Idles fine though and pulls fine when I use kickdown on the motorway at high speeds.

 

But it does feel rich. (bit sluggish/heavy)

 

Well if its going to be another MAF then a Bosch unit is the only choice. But I could be throwing money at this issue.

 

Remember with the old Bosch MAF I had the lean codes with pinging. From lean to now rich. old bosch maf to new aftermarket maf. Maybe I just wasted my money on the cheaper maf.

 

No access to VCDS unfortunately (just my simple code reader). Only if I take it back to the Skoda garage. When the other codes came up they were going to install a new MAF anyway.

[kentphil1]

Do yourself a very cheap favour and give all the vacuum hoses a good once over in good lighting, costs nothing but time and you never know what you might find. if you find any suspect ones, spray a little throttle body cleaner over the area and see if it gets sucked away.

 

It could also be worth your while to offer beer tokens to someone local to you with vcds to do some measuring block logging before you throw any more money at it yet.

[Brit24]

Do yourself a very cheap favour and give all the vacuum hoses a good once over in good lighting, costs nothing but time and you never know what you might find. if you find any suspect ones, spray a little throttle body cleaner over the area and see if it gets sucked away.

 

It could also be worth your while to offer beer tokens to someone local to you with vcds to do some measuring block logging before you throw any more money at it yet.

I have had a good look at all the lines that look in very good condition but I didn't try the fluid trick. Maybe I am missing some vacuum tubes - are some hidden away? (I used to use the carb cleaner trick on my old carb alfa). But I imagine a circuit cleaner spray would be a better idea on the plastic surfaces.

Unfortunately I have one of the engines with the inlet manifold covering the injectors and plugs so not easy to check under there.

 

Also I read that its worth trying to drive the car with the MAF disconnected to see if it runs better or worse.

What was interesting was to see the old Bosch maf making it go lean and the new aftermarket maf making it go rich giving us different fault codes. Does this tell us anything?

 

Thanks!

[kentphil1]

I have had a good look at all the lines that look in very good condition but I didn't try the fluid trick. Maybe I am missing some vacuum tubes - are some hidden away? (I used to use the carb cleaner trick on my old carb alfa). But I imagine a circuit cleaner spray would be a better idea on the plastic surfaces.

Unfortunately I have one of the engines with the inlet manifold covering the injectors and plugs so not easy to check under there.

 

Also I read that its worth trying to drive the car with the MAF disconnected to see if it runs better or worse.

What was interesting was to see the old Bosch maf making it go lean and the new aftermarket maf making it go rich giving us different fault codes. Does this tell us anything?

 

Thanks!

 

Whilst driving with the maf disconnected can be a fairly good indication of failure, It is a better idea if you can get access to somebody with VCDS, to do a live read on the components whilst you are driving. What that does is show what you are requesting from components and by return what they are actually supplying.

 

This is a much better way to diagnose faults that are being persistent and showing same or similar codes after component change - it also reinforces your case in a warranty claim to show the part really is malfunctioning. It is possible you may have another component in the car trying to compensate for an underlying fault.

 

Hope it helps.

[Brit24]

Whilst driving with the maf disconnected can be a fairly good indication of failure, It is a better idea if you can get access to somebody with VCDS, to do a live read on the components whilst you are driving. What that does is show what you are requesting from components and by return what they are actually supplying.

 

This is a much better way to diagnose faults that are being persistent and showing same or similar codes after component change - it also reinforces your case in a warranty claim to show the part really is malfunctioning. It is possible you may have another component in the car trying to compensate for an underlying fault.

 

Hope it helps.

Is this a full VCDS kit that I can run on my laptop while driving or do I need to go the full Ross-tech route?

What am I missing? They seem to be around 260 pounds but this at 50 quid? Is it only a basic tool that can read and reset the codes like my cheap 12 quid tool?

 

 

http://www.emanualonline.com/Diagnostics/VAG-COM-VCDS-Diagnostic-Kit.html?gclid=CLiCnMHWhsACFY_ItAodsw8A3g

Edited 9 August, 2014 by Brit24

[kentphil1]

I'm not fully conversant with the older software versions, but that looks like cloned software to me (latest retail version is 12.2, not 908) and as such I would be nervous doing live logging on the ecu with something like that.

 

To be honest, unless you intend doing lots of other stuff with VCDS to warrant the investment cost, you would be better looking on the VCDS members map and getting assistance that way, as it isn't just the software, it is knowing how to use it and interpret the results.

 

If you choose to invest, all the info you need should be in the VCDS section on here.

[Brit24]

I'm not fully conversant with the older software versions, but that looks like cloned software to me (latest retail version is 12.2, not 908) and as such I would be nervous doing live logging on the ecu with something like that.

 

To be honest, unless you intend doing lots of other stuff with VCDS to warrant the investment cost, you would be better looking on the VCDS members map and getting assistance that way, as it isn't just the software, it is knowing how to use it and interpret the results.

 

If you choose to invest, all the info you need should be in the VCDS section on here.

Thanks for the tips. I wasn't aware of the members map. I see johal87 is closest to me in Lichfield who is a green member.

 

Reading around 908.1 seems to be have released around 2008/2009. If its just an old copy shouldn't it work fine with a 2002 ECU?

:beer:

Edited 9 August, 2014 by Brit24

[Brit24]

There is a 11.11.3 copy for 80 quid here which might be worth considering.

http://www.vag-diagnostics.com/index.html

 

BUT it does not run on  windows 8! Just a small issue.

Edited 9 August, 2014 by Brit24

[kentphil1]

That is different software to VCDS although it does the same job. You would need to check for reviews in the VCDS section to see how users who have it rate it, and at least it is legit software.

 

The trouble with copy software is you cant update it once you have it as Ross-tech are very efficient at recognising copies of their software and stop it, and to be honest, if someone has altered the code enough to crack it, you don't know what other nasties are buried in the software to damage either your car, your laptop, or worse still - both.

 

Ross - tech support is very good on their legit software when you have a fault, and they can guide you accordingly with actions that work - period. The moody software just leaves you guessing or googling forums for best guess answers.

 

The choice is yours at the end of the day, it's just in view of your previous outlay already, I am just offering info so you don't step in a big smelly one.

 

Hope i've helped and not hindered

[Brit24]

That is different software to VCDS although it does the same job. You would need to check for reviews in the VCDS section to see how users who have it rate it, and at least it is legit software.

 

The trouble with copy software is you cant update it once you have it as Ross-tech are very efficient at recognising copies of their software and stop it, and to be honest, if someone has altered the code enough to crack it, you don't know what other nasties are buried in the software to damage either your car, your laptop, or worse still - both.

 

Ross - tech support is very good on their legit software when you have a fault, and they can guide you accordingly with actions that work - period. The moody software just leaves you guessing or googling forums for best guess answers.

 

The choice is yours at the end of the day, it's just in view of your previous outlay already, I am just offering info so you don't step in a big smelly one.

 

Hope i've helped and not hindered

Appreciate your help and tips. Certainly not hindered!

Just got to decide what to do now.

I could start throwing money at it not knowing what the under lying issue is as you mentioned. Mackenzies were going to throw a new MAF in after they read the lean code but it could have been several things bringing up those other 2 codes. And if that didn't work?

 

If there was a vacuum leak wouldn't we still get the 17560 lean code(old Bosch MAF) and not the rich 17573 (with the new cheap aftermarket MAF)? Maybe it needs an original Bosch MAF but without realtime driving data we can't pinpoint the exact issue.

[Brit24]

I am reading so many threads like this:

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/258188-maf-sensor-differences/

 

Basically aftermarket mafs just don't work properly!

Well mine is at least not as bad as having the old Bosch in that was causing pinging. Better on the rich side.

So I am leaning towards buying a new Bosch MAF..

 

(I just hope the O2 sensor that was installed before I bought the car wasn't aftermarket too-it was installed by a garage in Tamworth)

[kentphil1]

The thing with dealer software is it can do some things better than after-market software like VCDS, when it involves something fitted as standard and not coded or adjusted outside the way it was meant to be fitted in the vehicle.

 

Where after-market software scores heavily is that it can measure parameters that are locked to some dealer software and it can code things into modules that are locked to dealers for warranty or plain political marque hierarchy reasons.

 

I follow your reasoning, and possibly you are correct, but I think Bosch MAF's are in the £90 -100 region from specialists like TPS, more from dealers I believe. If you get the car checked and find something like a low vacuum reading or another sensor out of spec, I think you are going to feel a little sick - I know I would, that's why I got VCDS, i got fed up of that freshly mugged feeling at my previous main agent.

 

Just had an off the wall thought - what state is the air filter in?

 

Have you had a chance to drive the car with the MAF disconnected so that it falls back on the default fuel trim maps yet?, if so what happened?.

 

Also in reply to your question in post 17, any unmetered air getting in where it shouldn't will throw out the fuel trims as the system tries to either weaken or richen the fuel flow down because of what the sensors are telling it.

[Brit24]

The thing with dealer software is it can do some things better than after-market software like VCDS, when it involves something fitted as standard and not coded or adjusted outside the way it was meant to be fitted in the vehicle.

 

Where after-market software scores heavily is that it can measure parameters that are locked to some dealer software and it can code things into modules that are locked to dealers for warranty or plain political marque hierarchy reasons.

 

I follow your reasoning, and possibly you are correct, but I think Bosch MAF's are in the £90 -100 region from specialists like TPS, more from dealers I believe. If you get the car checked and find something like a low vacuum reading or another sensor out of spec, I think you are going to feel a little sick - I know I would, that's why I got VCDS, i got fed up of that freshly mugged feeling at my previous main agent.

 

Just had an off the wall thought - what state is the air filter in?

 

Have you had a chance to drive the car with the MAF disconnected so that it falls back on the default fuel trim maps yet?, if so what happened?.

 

Also in reply to your question in post 17, any unmetered air getting in where it shouldn't will throw out the fuel trims as the system tries to either weaken or richen the fuel flow down because of what the sensors are telling it.

Air filter is clean but I will buy a new one anyway.

 

Haven't had the chance to try the MAF disconnected yet. Tomorrow hopefully.

 

Would love to get the full VCDS myself but finances are tight right now. I may see if someone on the members map here is willing to help possibly before I throw another MAF in at 100 quid.

 

Thanks very much

[Brit24]

80 mile trip back from Wales today was fine apart from a little hiccup when starting.

It started up fine, then a second later almost stalled, picked up again and ran fine. (maybe a sign of the MAF beginning to fail? I don't know. Never done that before)

 

Tried a few hard accelerations in 2nd and 3rd up to 5K rpm and felt fine.

 

But I expect the light will come on again in a couple of days of running. At least it is drivable.

[kentphil1]

Each time you reset codes, fuel trims go back to learning mode for a short mileage, then once they stabilise to your driving, presumably the light will be back.

 

Did you just run it normal or did you try MAF disconnected for a while?.

[Brit24]

Each time you reset codes, fuel trims go back to learning mode for a short mileage, then once they stabilise to your driving, presumably the light will be back.

 

Did you just run it normal or did you try MAF disconnected for a while?.

just a normal run as we returning from a family trip in Wales. Hopefully tomorrow I'll get the chance to try it disconnected.

[Brit24]

Yep as expected after about 110+ miles the light came on again. Must be very minor as it seems to work fine.

 

tried all gears out of Drive and works great. idles fine.

coming off the filter road onto the motorway, slot it into 3rd and accelerate up to 80mph in 3rd with ease then slot it into drive. No flat spots.

 

hmmm.

a vacuum leak could be difficult to find especially on this AZJ engine with the inlet manifold covering the entire top of the engine.

 

Yes I will try it without the MAF shortly.

 

 

Mine is a 2.0l AZJ engine (from the Golf I believe). The inlet manifold hangs over the top.

There is a small vacuum tube that goes in under on the left hand side that the mechanic said was lose. Just next to the second injector/spark plug.

But for the life of me I cannot see where or what it connects to due to the inlet manifold. Goes into the dark abyss!

Has anyone got a picture of this small tube with the manifold off?

 

Maybe this is the culprit as it was initially lose when they did the full service.

Edited 12 August, 2014 by Brit24

[Brit24]

Think I will try some carb cleaner around the vacuum tubes to listen for any changes in rpm while idling.