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Replacement Engines, Engine Numbers, V5, DVLA, Skoda UK. What Happened.


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the thing thats most worrying is that slowda and the DVLA have different answers to one important question

i have now given up on it all as im so peeved by it its not healthy, needless to say i drive the nuts off it each and everyday (once warmed) and check the oil a la sharkriders method, ie when the warning message comes on screen, i get such random results using the same method that its total ******s so i gave up

life on the edge or what but thats what happens when i get peeved

Skoda (VW) will never get another penny off me as long as they keep churning out cars like this

once i can make my mind up what i like/can afford its gone, until then ill just enjoy it the way it should have been for the first 3 years

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The Engine Numbers are on the Block, and they were on the Block of Short Units.

But the Replacement Engines are 'Base Engines', New or Refurnished. & that is what the Engine Is.

A Cylinder Head can also have a Number, but here it is Replacement Engines we are talking about.

So an engine is just the block in isolation, nothing on, in or attached to it. Have DVLA actually got that written down anywhere? In the same way a car, motorcycle, HGV etc. is defined?

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This is what arrives.  an Engine, a Fully Built Engine, Block and Internals.

All the way from a VW Factory in Germany.

 

Is there some dispute in the Fact an Engine being Replaced in a car built 2010, 2011, 2012 , 2013 is an engine of the type removed,

but with one supplied from VW that has its own Individual Identification Number?

The same is available on Ebay etc, all with the Individual Identification Numbers.

4,000 Euro or there abouts. They get Sold & Supplied and sent around the world.

1.4 TSI CAVE 132 Kw.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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Yes but it may come down to sub paragraph X.X.X of Appendix I of Annex III of some piece of UK or EU legislation which details some situation where this is perfectly acceptable.

 

Certainly in other areas despite replacing ever single part of something, even all in one go, that something remains legally the original thing.

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Can you go find that subsection then please?

Or will we just go with what is clearly and plainly made obvious in the DVLA / VOSA / DfT publications that are full of 

being taken in various ways, other than Engines having Individual Identification Numbers.

 

The Issue really is the Various tales told by Dealership Employees and Skoda UK Customer Services Numbers.

If they Transfer Numbers, and someone signs that they did that, then there is something for Current and Future owners 

to give as proof that they are not in possession of some ringer.

 

& Skoda UK will be prepared to commit to paper that the Engine was replaced with a Like for Like Engine and the Original 

Engine Numbers are now on the 2nd or 3rd replacement Engine.

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Can you go find that subsection then please?

Or will we just go with what is clearly and plainly made obvious in the DVLA / VOSA / DfT publications that are full of

being taken in various ways, other than Engines having Individual Identification Numbers.

The Issue really is the Various tales told by Dealership Employees and Skoda UK Customer Services Numbers.

If they Transfer Numbers, and someone signs that they did that, then there is something for Current and Future owners

to give as proof that they are not in possession of some ringer.

& Skoda UK will be prepared to commit to paper that the Engine was replaced with a Like for Like Engine and the Original

Engine Numbers are now on the 2nd or 3rd replacement Engine.

You misunderstand. I've had a look at the vague information on the gov.UK website and for starters it doesn't explain any terms. I'm am assuming that there is legislation which covers cars registration, VIN and engines numbers etc but there is no link I can find on the website. As what I can find does not appear to be statutory guidance there therefore must be some legal basis for it somewhere.

Presumably this is a practise which extends beyond both the UK and Skoda, and as such it is very unlikely that no one in VAG would have assessed it from legal viewpoint.

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2nd biggest car Manufacturer in the world, and they have an Engine Remanufacturing Factory or 3.

They might like to act like 3 Monkeys and See, Say & do no Evil.

 

They just need to put things in writing sometimes, be consistent and honest and tell their Franchised Dealerships to be the same.

The Computer System is not always reliable or updated and Owners & Future Owners can not always check the Status of the Car.

Parts and Replacement parts fitted, when and by who.

 

It is simple, if the Customer has nothing to do because someone else did it, then proof of that is required.

Or if you do not care, and are happy to go with the flow, then that is anyones free choice.

 

george

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I posted the thread because when helping some members and others with the Failing engines in the vRS i am aware of the inconsistent 

treatment, confusion and subterfuge and down right incompetence from Dealership Staff and Skoda HQ Employees.

 

It is not if i am happy, it is if those Customers getting dealt with the way they are are happy and acting as the DVLA might expect them to.

ie, Their Car, they are responsible, and ignorance is never a defence.

But in this case it might be.Well documented now.

DVLA / VOSA / DfT / Skoda / VW & others are now aware.

Customers should not need to read the internet to be aware of the situation.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/294051-cave-cthe-14tsi-just-reply-please-if-you-have-had-an-engine-replaced

 

george

Edited by goneoffSKi
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Right, so I a very roundabout way, the answer is no.

So we are back to what is an "engine". On the basis it is the lump of metal with a number stamped on it, what about a Nissan Leaf, or a Tesla? They have no engine block, therefore do they not have an "engine"? What is therefore shown on the V5?

If they do have an " engine" number shown what does it refer to?

It is little things like this which make all the difference.

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Wunderbah.

 

Incase we mix up with some Electric Generator or Hybrid Powered Vehicle.

This is the 4 Cylinder Internal Combustion Engine we are talking about here.

Produced 2009- 2014, 1.4 TSI Twincharger CAVE & CTHE 132 - 136 KW.  

Around 20% of the 1,800 of the CAVE Sold in the UK have been replaced under Warranty.

 

They look pretty much like this.

They have Engine Numbers that stay on the Engine Block through its life,

except where they are removed, possibly replaced during Remanufacturing, rebuilds etc, records of this should be kept.

Their are also Foundry Stamps and Marks on the Block. These also might get Modified, 

sometimes on the Production Line.

 

The Ground out Engine Type Numbers or the Block are as comes from the Factory on some New 1.4 TSI.

This is not the Individual Engine Numbers.

To some Police Officers looking under a Bonnet and checking a Cars engine & VIN it looks a but DIY,

But you can explain that this is not the Engine Number,

& it was how the Worlds 2nd Largest Car Manufacturing Group do it.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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What defines someone just on a wind up, and talking 'the meaning of life.'

 

Go google Buying an engine or just a Short Unit. 

See what you are buying.

When you buy the Engine or Block you will need the Receipt with it, for a New, Used or Refurbished Engine.

You will need the Engine Number on the Receipt when you let the DVLA or any Government Agency around the world know the Origins of that Engine Blocks Manufacturing.

Its how it has been for Decades now.

 

Obviously times change and Stickers & Bar Codes are enough for the Volkswagen Group,

Stamps & Permanent Identification Marks are no longer required.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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What defines someone just on a wind up, and talking 'the meaning of life.'

No George, it is likely the crux of the matter.

A registration mark identifies your car but doesn't define it as a car. A number stamped on an engine component identifies the engine but doesn't define the engine.

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The Registration Mark requires a Vehicle to be Registered.

Vehicles leave the Factory with the Manufacturers Number & Transport to the Country of Sale Unregeistered in that Country, until they get first Registered. If they ever do, if they arrive, and do not go missing in transit,

(Off the Side of a Container Ship etc, Like the BMW Motorbikes washed up on a Shore Line, and Salvaged by People on the Beach. People tried to Register Them, but they were maybe now the Keeper, they were not the Owners.)

VIN Numbers, Body, Engine and Many Components can Identify them, Bar Codes ready by Bar Code Readers.

But you can Register Off Road Vehicles and Heavy Plant etc, even if not going to be on the Public Highway.

My Motorbikes were Registered & Insured but were not Road Legal.

 

VIN , Vehicle Identification Numbers,   Chassis / Body, Engine, Axles etc can be on Vehicles, Plant that is never on the Public Highway.

Off Road use only.

You can Insure Vehicles by the VIN, the Engine Numbers do Identify the Engine at time of Original Manufacture.

CC, Power Output etc.

Obviously that can be Modified, Rebored, Overbored, Rebuilt, CC Increased etc,

 

But Engine Nimbers are Engine Numbers, on the Block, Motor Bikes, Cars, HGV, Tractors, Boats, Planes etc etc.

 

OK ,

I am oft, i will leave you to it.

Remember now if your car is Written off Cat A, You Vehicles parts can not be Reused, the Parts Numbers will show what this is.

 

& if your car is Stolen and they break it for Parts, the Stolen Cars VIN /Engine Numbers will show on the DVLA Database,

& if down the Line, they raid some Breakers Yard or Ringers Workshop, they will be checking Engine Numbers against the Database.

You or the Insurance Underwriter if they paid out might get the Engine or even the Vehicle Back,

Even where the VIN on the Body is changed, & Glass changed to have the correct years codes etc has been Changed and Rung well, the Engine Numbers can often be checked & identified,

even when Ground Off, Welded over, Re-stamped etc.  Sometimes forensic techniques such as Xray can

assist.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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Chipping in, in case this helps anyone to feel less mad. I've teched for over 30 years at main franchised dealerships, mostly Nissan and Honda. But others also. Skoda/VW do just as others do when changing engines. It's pretty much the same for all manufacturers from my experience. Ford often provided off the production line brand new engines with no engine number. You got a letter from the dealership to inform anyone that needed to know that the engine had been changed for a brand new unit with no engine number! Don't know if they still do that. We simply stamped the original number on the block, as the old engine would be completely remanufactured and returned to a blank number id. Getting parts would not be a problem as long as the letter was keep in the service documentation as the date of change was the only real key needed.  There are some inconsistencies on the face of it, but if the engine number is the same then in theory, no other action is needed as long as you keep the letter with the date of replacement. It tells parts that it was the latest engine in that line at the time and when read in conjunction with the engine number it's all that's normally needed. 

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Would have thought that all component parts on a vehicle are subject to full traceability and this in turn is encompassed in the make up of the specific VIN per vehicle . Hence when the CTHE spec CAVE engine ( which has different component parts) are installed as a replacement, then this changes   the full traceability status, unless it is cross referenced to the VIN listing for said vehicle.

This must be a requirement to enable total recall to exist when necessary.

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Would have thought that all component parts on a vehicle are subject to full traceability and this in turn is encompassed in the make up of the specific VIN per vehicle . Hence when the CTHE spec CAVE engine ( which has different component parts) are installed as a replacement, then this changes   the full traceability status, unless it is cross referenced to the VIN listing for said vehicle.

This must be a requirement to enable total recall to exist when necessary.

 

The VIN includes no information on the engine.  At least no according to the VIN decoder app I have on my phone and the online ones I have tried before.

 

It is shown on the sticker in the boot, so I don't know if that is changed in the event of the swap such as above.

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The Registration Mark requires a Vehicle to be Registered.

Vehicles leave the Factory with the Manufacturers Number & Transport to the Country of Sale Unregeistered in that Country, until they get first Registered. If they ever do, if they arrive, and do not go missing in transit,

(Off the Side of a Container Ship etc, Like the BMW Motorbikes washed up on a Shore Line, and Salvaged by People on the Beach. People tried to Register Them, but they were maybe now the Keeper, they were not the Owners.)

VIN Numbers, Body, Engine and Many Components can Identify them, Bar Codes ready by Bar Code Readers.

But you can Register Off Road Vehicles and Heavy Plant etc, even if not going to be on the Public Highway.

My Motorbikes were Registered & Insured but were not Road Legal.

 

VIN , Vehicle Identification Numbers,   Chassis / Body, Engine, Axles etc can be on Vehicles, Plant that is never on the Public Highway.

Off Road use only.

You can Insure Vehicles by the VIN, the Engine Numbers do Identify the Engine at time of Original Manufacture.

CC, Power Output etc.

Obviously that can be Modified, Rebored, Overbored, Rebuilt, CC Increased etc,

 

But Engine Nimbers are Engine Numbers, on the Block, Motor Bikes, Cars, HGV, Tractors, Boats, Planes etc etc.

 

OK ,

I am oft, i will leave you to it.

Remember now if your car is Written off Cat A, You Vehicles parts can not be Reused, the Parts Numbers will show what this is.

 

& if your car is Stolen and they break it for Parts, the Stolen Cars VIN /Engine Numbers will show on the DVLA Database,

& if down the Line, they raid some Breakers Yard or Ringers Workshop, they will be checking Engine Numbers against the Database.

You or the Insurance Underwriter if they paid out might get the Engine or even the Vehicle Back,

Even where the VIN on the Body is changed, & Glass changed to have the correct years codes etc has been Changed and Rung well, the Engine Numbers can often be checked & identified,

even when Ground Off, Welded over, Re-stamped etc.  Sometimes forensic techniques such as Xray can

assist.

 

 

Sorry George you several miles away from the point I was making.

 

You can say an engine number is unique, but what kind of unique?

 

The registration plate on your car is unique to the car it is on (unless it has been cloned) but can be transferred.  So it is unique in that it can be associated with only one thing at a time.

 

Something like a replacement hip joint has a unique serial number which can only relate to that specific object and cannot be transferred.

 

So if an engine is replaced and the old engine (block only?) is recycled or remachined and given a new number then the new engine is the only one with the number and is therefore unique.  The new engine has no history and is not registered in any other vehicle and has either no number or a non standard or non unique identifier, which may therefore mean in law it doesn't count as an "engine".

 

Presumably Skoda maintain records that the engine swap took place therefore ensuring traceability.

 

Having had to deal with contracts and legal stuff at work for years it always comes down to the little words and definitions.

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The point is the Vehicles owner has the right to that information from Skoda. In Black & White.

& not as one member was told very recently by the Dealership & then Skoda UK that 

the Information is the Dealerships & Confidential

& the Owner just has to trust that all is done, and its up to the Dealer if they want to confirm what rreplacement parts are fitted, including consumables,

Plugs, Belts & Filters.

 

Well that is Nonsense, it is the Owners Property, it was Warranty Work,

& the Dealership is the Agent for the Warranty Payer, working for them.

 

What is relevant is that VW Built from 2009 - Mid 2012 CAVE Engines, and there were Failures.

So you would know if the car has a CAVE Original Engine.

 

Then Late 2012 the Cars were fitted with CTHE Engines. Different Components and ECU.

 

Well Original CAVE might have had a Replacement CAVE fitted anytime, 2011- 2012, 

even 2013.

Standard Spec as the Original, off the Engine Line, as liable to go wrong as the Original.

& a few Replacements have needed replaced.

 

But some Engines can be a Refurnish CAVE with Upgraded components, Rings, Scrappers, Pistons, Valve Seats, Guides etc.

 

So you want the Engines Build Date and Specification, or future owners might,

& anyone working on the cars Engine in the Future.

 

None of it is Rocket Science and a simple record of the Engine via a Paper Trail is very useful as well as the VW /Skoda 

Data Base information on the Engines Build and Components at Manufacture or Remanufacture.

 

We can presume lots, or more simply. Skoda / VW can confirm,

that is confirming the correct information, and coming from the Technical Department,

& not the various stories that Customer Services and Service Managers or Dealership Reception Staff tell.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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There is one Issue.

Skoda, VW, Seat & Audi carrying on with the pretence that each case is unique, and having each owner 

trying to get the best deal they can.

& while some dealerships are brilliant, it is like a 'only say what must be said', Need to know basis.

take the VWG line and admit as little as possible, 3 Monkeys,

& treat them like Mushrooms.

The Customer Services attitude is often, Customers should be grateful they got a replacement engine and some expenses for Oil,

& they might or might not get an extension to the Warranty.

 

So someone else& not austenw90 has just recently been shovelled the sharn from Skoda HQ ,

but there are several owners every month having Engines replaced, not only Briskoda members,

and they get told or not various stuff.

 

Those that have recent dealings with Skoda often can not say much until everything is resolved,

and there are those taking or preparing to take legal actions.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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There is one Issue.

Skoda, VW, Seat & Audi carrying on with the pretence that each case is unique, and having each owner 

trying to get the best deal they can.

& while some dealerships are brilliant, it is like a 'only say what must be said', Need to know basis.

take the VWG line and admit as little as possible, 3 Monkeys,

& treat them like Mushrooms.

The Customer Services attitude is often, Customers should be grateful they got a replacement engine and some expenses for Oil,

& they might or might not get an extension to the Warranty.

 

So someone else& not austenw90 has just recently been shovelled the sharn from Skoda HQ ,

but there are several owners every month having Engines replaced, not only Briskoda members,

and they get told or not various stuff.

 

Those that have recent dealings with Skoda often can not say much until everything is resolved,

and there are those taking or preparing to take legal actions.

 

OK

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There is no requirement for an engine to have a serial number until it is put into a vehicle. Every motor vehicle must have an engine with a 'unique to the population' serial number. AFAIK, this is the only requirement for an engine number.

IIRC, there is a rule that only the manufacturer or their agents can use the same engine number on a replacement and only if the original engine is returned to the manufacturer.

An engine is defined as a device that converts energy into the motion of the vehicle.

Many years ago, I had a Saab 93. The timing chain tensioner was faulty and the engine was destroyed. The replacement engine had the same number, so this is nothing new.

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There is no requirement for an engine to have a serial number until it is put into a vehicle. Every motor vehicle must have an engine with a 'unique to the population' serial number. AFAIK, this is the only requirement for an engine number.

IIRC, there is a rule that only the manufacturer or their agents can use the same engine number on a replacement and only if the original engine is returned to the manufacturer.

An engine is defined as a device that converts energy into the motion of the vehicle.

Many years ago, I had a Saab 93. The timing chain tensioner was faulty and the engine was destroyed. The replacement engine had the same number, so is nothing new.

Get you and ya fancy words! [emoji106]

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