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The Improved Braking Thread


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So for anyone wanting to improve braking on the Mk2 Octavia, thought I would do a bit of research. 

 

Personally I was thinking of: http://www.awesomegti.com/car/skoda/octavia2/skoda-octavia-ii-front-312x25-tarox-big-brake-kit on the front and a caddy rear caliper (bigger piston than S3 standard rear, I read somewhere fits with easy modification...) and S3 rear disc. I assume this uses the standard handbrake setup? Therefore minimal parts buying cost.

 

 

How would that fair with regards to brake bias versus standard....?

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If the brakes will activate the ABS at a certain speed then the stopping distance is being determined by the tyres' grip on the road, not the brake pads' grip on the discs.  Tyres with more grip may well improve braking performance more than larger brakes.  How many of you choose tyres for straight line braking performance? 

 

I have never understood the view that if the engine is 'tuned' for more power then the car needs bigger brakes - surely only true if you intend to drive at higher (illegal?)speeds than before the engine was tuned. 

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Ever crossed your mind he does track days ? And if we where to go by your theory all car manufactures would fit "smaller brakes" as this would be cheaper. As after all the tyres do most the work. How's about we throw brake fade into the equation ?

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Edited by Lew0-VRS
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I would think you need some form of brake upgrade if you are experiencing brake fade or getting minimal ABS kicking-in.

 

I'm not heavy on brakes (140,000km on original pads) but still appreciate the better stopping I get from vRS rotors & calliper carriers (still on stock callipers as they are identical).

 

I'd rather somebody spend a shed load on 6-pot calipers, etc than a body kit.

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Personally speaking, I'm not a fast driver as most of the time my kids are in the car... But when I'm on my own I do enjoy a drive.

My estate is already on H&R cup suspension, Whiteline ARBs, TDR pro-race 1.2s, and I'll shortly fit Superpro bushes to the rear, having already done the front.

Before any power modifications, and just because I enjoy modifying my car, I want to do the brakes.

Everybody does the usual Porsche 4 pot conversion, not saying it's not a great upgrade, but I would like doing something a little different.

The 6 pots will look great behind my wheels, but just doing that the brakes would obviously be completely front biased. To even it out I thought something like the larger VW caddy rear caliper and a standard S3 disc, if that combo even works of course. I read it somewhere, maybe on Darkside Developments site, but can't seem to find it now...

And then I will think about more power, and possibly changing to a stronger and longer ratio box, LSD, etc...

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Ever crossed your mind he does track days ? And if we where to go by your theory all car manufactures would fit "smaller brakes" as this would be cheaper. As after all the tyres do most the work. How's about we throw brake fade into the equation ?

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Yes, it did cross my mind that the OP did track days but as braking conditions for track days are obviously not the same as road driving I didn't mention it  - I should have.  Brake fade in road driving? Unlikely unless the brakes are being over-used and/or the driving is inappropriate for the public road.

 

I didn't say the tyres do most of the work in stopping the car - they do ALL the work as they are the only contact with the road.  Fit slick tyres on a car and drive on a wet road and then decide if uprated brakes or the best possible tyre grip is the most important factor in obtaining the shortest possible stopping distance.

 

In 14 months and 14K miles I have never once found it necessary to use the full (standard) braking effort of my car - it's called anticipation.

 

A few years ago I went to a demonstration by Ferodo.  It was demonstrated that very few drivers actually make use of the maximum possible braking when carrying out an emergency stop.  Very few drivers actually stamp as hard as possible on the brake petal; most start too 'soft' and then increase the pressure.  During the demonstration by using the correct technique braking distances at 40mph were reduced by more than 20% on a dry road - electronically measured from when the brake pedal was first pressed so reaction time not included.  On a wet road changing from 4mm to 8mm tread also made a terrific difference (I can't remember the actual figure).

 

If it is thought that a car needs larger brakes to stop in a shorter distance then better only drive on dry roads or re-new the tyres more frequently. :giggle:

 

As you say, if driving on the track is the aim then that is a whole new ball game.   However, with my last car (on standard brakes), 2 hours of ten minute sessions separated by a few minutes break on a 1-1/4 mile circuit with 8 bends and speeds between 40 and 95mph do not produce any brake fade although the alloy wheels were getting rather warm at the end of some runs.  Which raises the interesting point that the rate at which the hubs and alloy wheels can conduct heat away from the brakes and into the surrounding air has an effect on preventing (or at least delaying) brake fade.

 

I'm not trying to provoke an argument; just pointing out that bigger brakes are not the only factor in improved braking.  I can also understand how some drivers think spending considerable sums of money on changing the mechanical parts of their brake set-up is worth it just to obtain better 'feel' and improve their confidence in their car.  Good for them and I am always interested in reading about the methods of doing so and the results (although these are often only subjective).

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I find the ABS system in the octavia is too sensitive and kicks in too soon, making stopping distances longer.

On the road, not the track?  if so, perhaps re-examining your driving technique and level of anticipation so that the ABS is not invoked is in order?  How often do you find  hard stops to be necessary?

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Yes, it did cross my mind that the OP did track days but as braking conditions for track days are obviously not the same as road driving I didn't mention it - I should have. Brake fade in road driving? Unlikely unless the brakes are being over-used and/or the driving is inappropriate for the public road.

I didn't say the tyres do most of the work in stopping the car - they do ALL the work as they are the only contact with the road. Fit slick tyres on a car and drive on a wet road and then decide if uprated brakes or the best possible tyre grip is the most important factor in obtaining the shortest possible stopping distance.

In 14 months and 14K miles I have never once found it necessary to use the full (standard) braking effort of my car - it's called anticipation.

A few years ago I went to a demonstration by Ferodo. It was demonstrated that very few drivers actually make use of the maximum possible braking when carrying out an emergency stop. Very few drivers actually stamp as hard as possible on the brake petal; most start too 'soft' and then increase the pressure. During the demonstration by using the correct technique braking distances at 40mph were reduced by more than 20% on a dry road - electronically measured from when the brake pedal was first pressed so reaction time not included. On a wet road changing from 4mm to 8mm tread also made a terrific difference (I can't remember the actual figure).

If it is thought that a car needs larger brakes to stop in a shorter distance then better only drive on dry roads or re-new the tyres more frequently. :giggle:

As you say, if driving on the track is the aim then that is a whole new ball game. However, with my last car (on standard brakes), 2 hours of ten minute sessions separated by a few minutes break on a 1-1/4 mile circuit with 8 bends and speeds between 40 and 95mph do not produce any brake fade although the alloy wheels were getting rather warm at the end of some runs. Which raises the interesting point that the rate at which the hubs and alloy wheels can conduct heat away from the brakes and into the surrounding air has an effect on preventing (or at least delaying) brake fade.

I'm not trying to provoke an argument; just pointing out that bigger brakes are not the only factor in improved braking. I can also understand how some drivers think spending considerable sums of money on changing the mechanical parts of their brake set-up is worth it just to obtain better 'feel' and improve their confidence in their car. Good for them and I am always interested in reading about the methods of doing so and the results (although these are often only subjective).

The standard 288mm set up on my 4x4 could easily be cooked between the last a43 roundabout at brackley and the m40.

Anticipation and an awareness of road conditions is the ONLY reason they gave up the ghost too soon.

Its dual all the way at NSL they could still be goosed.

The standard brakes are not suitable for fast road use, whether you think that should be at or bellow the posted limit is neither here nor there.

312mm vrs brakes are a minimum for getting on with it, along with a decent set of boots - that I will agree with you on.

The worth of bigger brakes than 312mm on 200-250 bhp road cars does have to be questioned, but many fit for aesthetics as much as anything else.

Upwards of 250 bhp and yer in the wrong car anyway :-)

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"The standard brakes are not suitable for fast road use, whether you think that should be at or bellow the posted limit is neither here nor there".

 

Why do people think that fast road driving requires heavy use of the brakes?  In my opinion that is just poor driving.  Anticipation and planning negate the need for heavy braking.  Late, heavy braking into corners and roundabouts is just asking to unsettle the car and if evasive action is then required a collision or off-roading could well result.  The public road is not the place to drive on, or even near, the limit.  I learnt that lesson the hard way a couple of times when a younger and much less experienced driver.  If standard brakes seem to be inadequate for driving on the public road then the driver is at fault not the brakes.

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Is Gloucestershire really flat? (I know the UK about as well as the average Brit knows Australia - which isn't Ramsey St or Summer Bay). 

 

OP was actually asking about improving brakes rather than the BBK he referred to.  There are plenty of ways to improve on a stock system.  Pads, fluid & rotor type are just the start but you could also improve cooling, etc.

 

As the only "car person" in my family, I've often been questioned about why I'd want a remap, better brakes or xenon headlights.  My stock answer these days is "Because I can."  As far as I'm concerned that's all the logic I need when dealing with people that think that the manufacturer knows best.

 

Philbes, I'm not quite sure why you think that a vehicle that is needing better brakes is being driven irresponsibly.  I've run out of brakes just plodding down a mountain with 5-up & luggage in the car - sometimes it happens.

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"The standard brakes are not suitable for fast road use, whether you think that should be at or bellow the posted limit is neither here nor there".

Why do people think that fast road driving requires heavy use of the brakes? In my opinion that is just poor driving. Anticipation and planning negate the need for heavy braking. Late, heavy braking into corners and roundabouts is just asking to unsettle the car and if evasive action is then required a collision or off-roading could well result. The public road is not the place to drive on, or even near, the limit. I learnt that lesson the hard way a couple of times when a younger and much less experienced driver. If standard brakes seem to be inadequate for driving on the public road then the driver is at fault not the brakes.

Oh dear.

I don't feel the need to regale you with my motoring or competition experience.

Suffice it to say your talking out of your hat.

The brakes on my 4x4 were 8mm larger than the brakes on my puma.

The Octavia has a mass 500+kg greater than the Ford.

I'll leave it at that. You clearly are incapable of seeing beyond your own blinkered view so any further discussion is pointless.

Enjoy your weak brakes ;-)

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My combi, fitted with vRS brakes despite being well loaded can cope with a traverse of the Alps without fade, a bit smelly maybe, but still working as they should.

This is my bench mark for satisfactory brakes, Anything less would be inadequate for me. It is a sterner test than blatting along a dual carrigeway or ear'oling a few roundabouts.

Unless you only ever drive here in Fenland, they are IMHO, the minimum requirement.

Off again in a few days to retest them.

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So far all my cars have been given 'better brakes' even if that's a simple upgrade from standard disc and pads to dotted and grooved and better pads along with steel hoses.

Like said before my old vectra the brakes were pretty much rubbish hence everyone used to put the 308mm discs on them and that helped :)

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Here's a radical thought... maybe the OP wants to do it for the enjoyment of changing something else on his car, can afford and justify the spend and came to this forum looking for advice on possible products to look at?

 

FWIW, I believe that fast road driving, in fact ANY fast driving, should rely on brakes as little as possible. I also believe that modifying a car to produce more power does not necessitate a brake upgrade - the weight, top speed and other factors that affect braking won't have changed, just because you can accelerate faster.

 

But I absolutely get why somebody would want to modify their car for the pleasure and enjoyment out of it. And whether it's necessary or not, whether it's value for money or not, it is possible to improve braking performance and this is what the OP asked about.

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Excellent.  My posts have encouraged other people to give their views.

 

To Brad1.8T  -  no Gloucestershire isn't flat - in fact it is quite hilly.  However, my vRS's standard brakes manage fine, even with a fully loaded car.

 

To Fairlight5 - of course the brakes on the Octavia are larger than on the Puma.  The manufacturers aim is to match the brakes to the car's needs.

"Enjoy your weak brakes ;-)" - what weak brakes?  My car's brakes have never been inadequate, even when driving through the Alps.

You mention competition - I thought I had made it  clear that my remarks were purely related to road driving.

 

You all seem to have ignored the last part of one of my posts - "  I can also understand how some drivers think spending considerable sums of money on changing the mechanical parts of their brake set-up is worth it just to obtain better 'feel' and improve their confidence in their car.  Good for them and I am always interested in reading about the methods of doing so and the results (although these are often only subjective)."

 

RobM - we seem to agree on many of the points raised.

 

I'll now leave it for those knowledgeable regarding brake upgrades to answer the OP's original query rather than just disagreeing with me. :)

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The point I was making between the ford and the Skoda is the brakes on the Skoda ARE NOT matched to the cars performance and towing ability.

The old model Leon cupra was also fitted with 288mm discs, despite the fact the 312mm vrs setup was available to Seat, guess what? The brakes were crap on that too...

Your comments about 'why do people think fast road driving requires heavy use of brakes? In my opinion that is poor driving' etc elicited my response about my driving ability. You can't put a statement like that out there and not expect to be picked up on it

You obviously drive slow enough for the standard brakes to cope, I don't. Both our choice. But to pontificate and keep whining on about brake upgrades being pointless on the road in a brake improving thread is bizarre to say the least.

Cheers.

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The biggest laugh of all this is you drive a vRS - we have the same set up. My standard brakes on a 4x4 were not good enough. The new vRS brakes are....

Your car details don't come up on a phone and you didn't mention what you drive, where as I did.

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Edited by fairlight5
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The biggest laugh of all this is you drive a vRS - we have the same set up. My standard brakes on a 4x4 were not good enough. The new vRS brakes are....

Your car details don't come up on a phone and you didn't mention what you drive, where as I did.

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My car details come up on all my posts - didn't realise that didn't happen on a smartphone - another reason to ignore my daughters and stick to my old 'non-smart' Nokia.

 

My vRS does not seem to stop any better than my previous 2005 Civic Type-S (282mm dia front discs?).  Fitting bigger brakes to 'sporty' versions of family cars is often (but not always) a marketing, rather than an engineering, exercise. 

 

I am genuinely interested - what advantage(s) do you think you gained by fitting vRS brakes to your 4x4?  "4x4 brakes not enough"? - fade, feel, stopping distance, appearance (just joking)?

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Right, calm down you lot. It doesn't overly matter why, or who's driving method is "right". This thread is for info on improving braking, not the old left vs right argument.

Tyres make a good difference to braking. A good point.

Upgrading to VRS brakes suffices for most people also. So that's the 312mm disc, with what size piston caliper?

Have people upgraded rears here? Specifically talking estates, as that's what I have.

Anyone done anything with other VAG group parts? Other than the S3/R32 brake setup which many regard as a bit heavy with regards to higher weight vs brake improvement.

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Right, calm down you lot. It doesn't overly matter why, or who's driving method is "right". This thread is for info on improving braking, not the old left vs right argument.

Tyres make a good difference to braking. A good point.

Upgrading to VRS brakes suffices for most people also. So that's the 312mm disc, with what size piston caliper?

Have people upgraded rears here? Specifically talking estates, as that's what I have.

Anyone done anything with other VAG group parts? Other than the S3/R32 brake setup which many regard as a bit heavy with regards to higher weight vs brake improvement.

288mm & 312mm set-ups both use the same caliper (hence piston are is the same) but a different caliper carrier.  Even the brake pad is the same.  You are simply shifting the clamp pressure out further & the rotor has more heat sink area (that's basically what the rotor does - act as a heat sink)

 

I may be wrong but I think the 312mm set up has a 2mm bigger master cylinder. (22mm v 24mm).

 

Personally, I think the 312mm upgrade is a no-brainer starting point as it does give better feel & you can still run 16" rims. 

I'd also consider:

  • decent rotors such as DBA 4000 series or similar (even a 2-piece, hatted rotor for weight saving)
  • decent pads such as ATE Ceramic, Ferodo DS2500, QFM A1RM or similar.
  • decent brake fluid changed every 12 months.  VW spec is VW TL 776 Z = VW 501.14 = ISO 4925 Class 6  which is generally refered to as Super Dot 4. This is a less viscous fluid than DOT4/5.1 & therefore you get better pedal pressure & response from the stability control system.  ATE SL6, Pentosin DOT 4 LV, Textar DOT 4 PRO, TRW DOT 4 ESP all meet the spec which I think is commonly refered to as Super Dot 4.

Here's a really interesting thread on ISO 4925 Class 6 brake fluid.

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My car details come up on all my posts - didn't realise that didn't happen on a smartphone - another reason to ignore my daughters and stick to my old 'non-smart' Nokia.

 

My vRS does not seem to stop any better than my previous 2005 Civic Type-S (282mm dia front discs?).  Fitting bigger brakes to 'sporty' versions of family cars is often (but not always) a marketing, rather than an engineering, exercise. 

 

I am genuinely interested - what advantage(s) do you think you gained by fitting vRS brakes to your 4x4?  "4x4 brakes not enough"? - fade, feel, stopping distance, appearance (just joking)?

 

Personally, I find the vRS brakes night and day stronger than my old Civic's 288mm setup. But to the detriment of having way too much servo assistance for my liking. (Thanks to the "Brake Booster?")

 

In fact, the Honda's were so weak, I upgraded to a Type-R setup - though the car was mapped and needed them. They had a much better feel to them than the Skoda's, standard or uprated, though.

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