The Improved Braking Thread

[_redders_]

I'm running 18z cayenne 6pots on the front and 310mm s3 rears. I like them

[PC Dave]

Also FWIW I did a track day at Spa last year in my old MK2. That was a stage 1 remap, and it ended up with quite bad brake fade. More than likely down to my inability to drive properly but there was a chap there in a Mk3 VRS and he had just changed to braided hoses and 5.1 oil and had much less fade throughout the session. May not be worth upgrading the whole lot, just try different things.

Dave

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[nickguzzi]

Have people upgraded rears here? Specifically talking estates, as that's what I have.

Anyone done anything with other VAG group parts? Other than the S3/R32 brake setup which many regard as a bit heavy with regards to higher weight vs brake improvement.

If you have a trawl for DaveB on various VAG sites you may find something. He more or less pioneered the NQSBBK. He did start doing some work on using Caddy calipers at the rear, but I couldn't bear faffing with other fora.

If you want something more dramatic, he did produce some kits for ttrs (so sorta similar and fittable with the right wheels) using big audi RS5's stuff, even I think, some ceramic ones.

[philbes]

Personally, I find the vRS brakes night and day stronger than my old Civic's 288mm setup. But to the detriment of having way too much servo assistance for my liking. (Thanks to the "Brake Booster?")

 

In fact, the Honda's were so weak, I upgraded to a Type-R setup - though the car was mapped and needed them. They had a much better feel to them than the Skoda's, standard or uprated, though.

I have found over the years that what should be two identical cars can have very different brake performance.  Age of fluid, condition of discs, actual pads fitted, driving technique, etc. all have an effect.  My Civic Type-S was very different to drive (including brake performance and feel) to a friend's wife's identical car that was a few months newer and lower mileage.

[rob_e]

NQSBBK mentioned above is a lightweight 4 piston caliper; beneifts are reduction in unsprung weight and improved pedal feel.  These are reasons enough to upgrade.  Does it stop the car any quicker?  Unless you did side-by-side testing with identical cars on identical tyres you wouldn't know, but i would guess that there would be nothing in it.

 

Well worth doing though, and if you do track days then those tarox would be ideal.  Bit overkill for a road car though tbh unless you're just doing it for vanity.

 

BTW the nqsbbk is fine with oem rears.  Suggest you try that first before you spend any more. 

[fairlight5]

My car details come up on all my posts - didn't realise that didn't happen on a smartphone - another reason to ignore my daughters and stick to my old 'non-smart' Nokia.

My vRS does not seem to stop any better than my previous 2005 Civic Type-S (282mm dia front discs?). Fitting bigger brakes to 'sporty' versions of family cars is often (but not always) a marketing, rather than an engineering, exercise.

I am genuinely interested - what advantage(s) do you think you gained by fitting vRS brakes to your 4x4? "4x4 brakes not enough"? - fade, feel, stopping distance, appearance (just joking)?

It's not a case of thinking there is an advantage, the difference is night and day.

No fade and increased pedal feel are the greatest gain. - I went with ebc redstuff pads. Stopping distance is irrelevant, its fade that was the big problem with the standard set up.

Arriving at a roundabout/corner with the pedal heading to the floor and no reduction in speed is not exactly ideal.

Aesthetics are neither here nor there for me.

Performance wise my car and your diesel are not far off as standard. 10hp and 40lbft less in my car to yours. Not much in the 0-62 and top speed either. Mass very similar too. Imagine your car with not very good brakes, then you may begin to see the reason people change, especially as there are VAG parts readily available to make a big improvement at little cost.

Mine has since had a revo stage 1 remap, this takes output to a claimed 220bhp and 284lbft. It would be an awful car to stop on its original brakes.

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[myheartbeatsfortwo]

I'm running 18z cayenne 6pots on the front and 310mm s3 rears. I like them

 

 

Interersting, Did you make some caliper brackets up to suit and use OEM discs? And just change the rear calipers and discs? Were any other parts used? And if you don't mind sharing the cost...

[cheezemonkhai]

The fade was an issue for me.

In Germany doing 140 and having a Dutch caravanista pull out doing not much. They stopped fine but felt rubbish for a good while after.

They got replaced with larger front carriers, 312mm discs and ECB red and then oem pads and I've never had an issue.

A lot of the time fade is just people not having changed the brake fluids.

With the dervs I think a bit extra at the front is nice, but I'd not go for the 4 pots myself.

Edited 1 September, 2014 by cheezemonkhai

[_redders_]

Interersting, Did you make some caliper brackets up to suit and use OEM discs? And just change the rear calipers and discs? Were any other parts used? And if you don't mind sharing the cost...

Cayenne calipers are a straight bolt on to mk5 hubs, so mk5/6/7 tt a3 leon etc, use the Mercedes ml450 discs. Easy as that.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5830375-Brembo-18Z-6-piston-brake-upgrade.-DIY-BBK-write-up.-Big-brakes-for-under-a-grand

[Guest]

Dear Santa,

Why I would like improved braking.

Over the years I have never found any of my standard vehicles to have brakes that were good enough in the long term.

Everything from an ER50 to GSXR1100, Nova to Octavia II.

All have had OK brakes to begin with but with brisk progress being made eventually fade and things go downhill from there with discs turning a nice shade of blue in extreme cases, rendering even the handbrake almost useless.

Glaze busting never helped much and I am firmly in the belief that speed/use/heat is the problem as driving other people's machines who have a less than enthusiastic style usually highlights their good brakes.

The answer without changing driving style would seem to be specialist discs and pads not the budget stuff from local motor factors and even larger components on the basis of giving them less of a hard time and hopefully not going into fade territory.

BTW I don't drive around like my hair's on fire, just my brakes! You can only hussle a PD105 so much after all!

Without starting an argument or a heated debate, as long as we stop safely in the distance we can see to be clear then all is well. Just more predictive, consistent and less pedal effort required is better.

[nickguzzi]

Using the Alps as an example, the hills are often sufficiently steep that the acceleration due to gravity is more than I would be prepared to apply via the engine knowing the severity of the up coming bend. Unless you are going to be in first gear the entire way, heavy repeated use of the brakes is a requirement.

I traverse the Alps at least once a year. The car is always heavily loaded. I do it because I enjoy it - the drive, the views, the wildlife. The not using motorways.

My normal transalpine route takes about 6+ hours driving. From a few hundred metres above sea level to almost 3000 metres, a number of times. Miles of hairpins on steep ascents and descents. Interspersed with the sinuous roads of the high Alpine pastures, where no braking is usually required due to the open nature of the sightlines. A little higher speed running to cool the brakes.

The upgrade to 312mm brakes was essential. I had suffered terminal fade, and was unable to continue, they took a long time to cool. The cooled brakes were not back to normal, being spongy and longer travel than I liked.

The entire front brakes were changed as soon as I got (very carefully) home. This necessitated new hubs and dampers too.

Fade has not reared its head again. Normal driving is much nicer, and you can sense the additional capabilities.

The brakes do become more difficult to modulate when very hot. A slight delay, then too much grabby brake, which makes smooth progress difficult and uncomfortable for both of us. That is very hot, not normal making progress over here. I think it would be fairly easy to fade even the 312mm discs with a little less restraint.

I am tempted by the NQSBBK. If I come upon some affordable Porsche calipers I'll take the plunge. The big advantage is touted as the improved feel and ability to modulate.

Having experienced the advantages of reducing unsprung weight, I think that would be something I would also appreciate, and would give the dampers an easier time.

I prefer the aesthetics to be as standard as possible.

[bubba]

What size brakes does a standard facelift Vrs have? They seem OK to me, but no where near as good as my Mk2 Leon Cupra were, that thing had excellent brakes

[Gti Jazz Blue]

312mm setup on the vRS.

[k.young]

288mm & 312mm set-ups both use the same caliper (hence piston are is the same) but a different caliper carrier.  Even the brake pad is the same.  You are simply shifting the clamp pressure out further & the rotor has more heat sink area (that's basically what the rotor does - act as a heat sink)

 

I may be wrong but I think the 312mm set up has a 2mm bigger master cylinder. (22mm v 24mm).

 

Personally, I think the 312mm upgrade is a no-brainer starting point as it does give better feel & you can still run 16" rims. 

I'd also consider:

• decent rotors such as DBA 4000 series or similar (even a 2-piece, hatted rotor for weight saving)
• decent pads such as ATE Ceramic, Ferodo DS2500, QFM A1RM or similar.
• decent brake fluid changed every 12 months.  VW spec is VW TL 776 Z = VW 501.14 = ISO 4925 Class 6  which is generally refered to as Super Dot 4. This is a less viscous fluid than DOT4/5.1 & therefore you get better pedal pressure & response from the stability control system.  ATE SL6, Pentosin DOT 4 LV, Textar DOT 4 PRO, TRW DOT 4 ESP all meet the spec which I think is commonly refered to as Super Dot 4.

Here's a really interesting thread on ISO 4925 Class 6 brake fluid.

 

I am fairly sure that the pads are different between the 288mm and the 312mm set up, they are the same "fitting" but there is a deeper (height) profile to the pad, to account for the larger contact surface on the larger diameter disc.

(hope that made sense)

[fairlight5]

K.young.

Brad1.8t is correct. Ebc list DP21517 greenstuff for all ATE equipped cars from 2006 on, be it 288mm or 312mm.

Same goes for the red stuff I fitted to mine. I kept the original 288mm discs and pads from my car as they had only done 19k the 288mm OE pads are the same size as the pads supplied by ebc for my 312 discs.

The only difference is the caliper carrier bracket.

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[duv2000]

Too much politics above to read. But here's my 2 pence. I thought the brakes on my vrs were good enough until I fitted some r32 345mm and then I realised they actually weren't. IMHO they should have come from the factory with these as standard. Highly recommend the upgrade.

[fairlight5]

Too much politics above to read. But here's my 2 pence. I thought the brakes on my vrs were good enough until I fitted some r32 345mm and then I realised they actually weren't. IMHO they should have come from the factory with these as standard. Highly recommend the upgrade.

Steady! We are only just getting to the point where everyone agrees vRS brakes are the minimum :-)

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[duv2000]

Steady! We are only just getting to the point where everyone agrees vRS brakes are the minimum :-)

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Haha sorry!!

[brad1.8T]

For me, I wouldn't go with R32 345mm or any of the Golf R type variants as they are too flippin' heavy & add too much unsprung weight.

Next step up would have to be a 4 or 6 pot BBK. Generally they will run about 5kg per side lighter than the Golf R style of caliper.

HPA do a pretty good kit for about GBP2000. 355mm hatted 32mm rotors, 6 pots, mounts, pads and they fit under 18s

PB Brakes do a front BBK 4 pot & 330mm rotors for 17" rims) for about GBP750 & rears for GBP850

here's some weight info I've been collecting

Brakes (caliper + rotor + pads + bolts + adapter)

OEM:

stock 312mm - 14.5kg

TTS 340mm - 20kg

S3/R32 345mm - 21.5kg

TTRS 370mm - 17kg

RS4/RS6 365mm - 17kg

RS6 V10 390mm - 21.5kg

Non OEM:

VW-R 352x32mm - 12kg

K-Sport 356x32mm - 12.25kg

Brembo 355x32mm - 13kg

[brad1.8T]

 

I am fairly sure that the pads are different between the 288mm and the 312mm set up, they are the same "fitting" but there is a deeper (height) profile to the pad, to account for the larger contact surface on the larger diameter disc.

(hope that made sense)

Same pad & same caliper / piston size.

I bought a set of GTI brakes and measured it all up. Because I'm a lazy sod & didn't want to bleed my brakes I finished up just using the rotors & caliper carriers. The only difference is the length of the "arm" on the caliper carrier. It must save VW so much money doing it that way.

Here's a thread I made about it. I did say I didn't need it but it did make an improvement & I doubt I could go back to 288mm now.

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/307294-288mm-elegance-spec-upgraded-to-312mm-vrs-spec-stealth-upgrade/

[zei20t]

I found the stock vRS setup pretty good on the track. Yes they got hot and I cooked the paint on the front calipers, but after 12-15 laps of a 2.2km track (about 1.3miles) they were mostly still holding up. there were probably 3-4 big stop points, the only other time I touched the brakes was to unsettle the car in an open chicane.

 

I've since upgraded to TTRS fronts (need to do the rear at some stage) but haven't had the opportunity to track test it. I hope to get through 20+ laps without heat soak.

 

I had never run this car on the track before, before I settled in and learnt the track, I ran out of brakes after about 3-4 laps. turned out my braking points were all wrong and sometimes unnecessary. perhaps people that get brake fade need to learn the balance of their car and realise it will handle pretty damn well out of the box.

 

EDIT: I have a FL vRS with 312mm front rotors

Edited 3 September, 2014 by zei20t

[ruiatalmeida]

Hi everyone,

 

I think the thread has gone terribly wrong, it was just a question, nothing else.

 

As for the correct driving etc my view of it is, live and let live - you like to drive slow then do so, you like to drive at moderate speeds do so, you like to drive fast/hard/etc do it - why argue about that? (and stop going on about being illegal as everyone that drives a car has broken speed limits themselves - either by going into a 50 km/h zone not well signaled at slightly over it or by straying over the limit on one of those days when you just have your mind on something else...)..... I live in Germany now and do a few (unrestricted) motorway runs every once in a while, I have a 1.6 tdi cr combi and I can attest to the fact that the brakes feel like they could sometimes need some help - having said this they never let me down, it is just a "feeling" specially when people pull up without using indicators and you have to brake hard. Now, I bought the 1.6 because I do a fair bit of kms everyday, need the space for my weekend activities and have no love in spending my time in petrol stations, the car, even having a ridiculously small engine does what I need from it perfectly well even reaching - occasionally - 160 to 170 kph in the autobahn (aprox 100mph - and yes, in my 1.6 I reach higher speeds than most of you in your VRS's as I do not have to worry about speed traps :P ).

 

Now, I do not know if the 1.6 has smaller brakes than the others (they are standard on mine) but they do "feel" a bit more bite would not hurt.

 

So now just give the man his information and then go on with your discussion, it is quite entertaining to read, specially when people that seem like quite well mannered adults  insult each other just because they can.......hell I do the same with speed and go 160 kph on the motorway for the same reason, because I can. :P  

[Yeti_Man]

Best use of the 312mm setup is with DS2500 pads and ATE Super Blue fluid - so much more effective than the OE 312mm disk/pad/fluid setup. I've had these smoking on Austrian passes but still performing well. Left to cool off they are as good as new when required again. Its worth doing braided lines to improve pedal feel also.

 

Forget the 345mm S3 setup - I didn't take to it at all. It felt heavy and cumbersome and makes the car thump over tarmac joins etc. (Unsprung weight is very important in how a car feels when pushing on so may be worth having a read up to fully understand it if its of interest). Took mine off after a year or so - imo the uprated 312mm with DS2500 pads were nicer all round. Best combination of performance and cost, without any doubt for me are the Porsche NQSBBK setup - its a very rigid lightweight calliper that really performs and is an almost spot on match for the master cylinder (unlike the Cayenne ones mentioned above). A wide variety of pad availability for it is a massive bonus too (Porsche/Textar ones are usually under £60 at ECP!) - the use of standard 312mm disks is the icing on the cake. They have by far the best pedal feel (in terms of pressure modulation especially) of any brakes I ran on this platform also. The only time I wouldn't recommend this setup is for cars destined for heavy track use - for this I feel that the disk needs to move up in size to aid with heat dissipation.

[JB-)]

Best use of the 312mm setup is with DS2500 pads 

 

Those pads aren't road legal in the UK. Just saying.

[Yeti_Man]

Those pads aren't road legal in the UK. Just saying.

More specifically I guess you are referring to their lack of R90 approval? They cant be approved as they as too good at what they do! i.e. better than 15% improvement over an OE compound. I've never known of a claim to be rejected by an insurance company since their introduction to the market place and they do actually state 'for track use' or similar on the box. Having said that, there are no downsides compared to other 'track specific' pads - they brake better from cold than the OE ones as an example and then just get more effective with further/additional use.