Which oil best if changed as often as required?

[jimbof]

I can change the oil on my car pretty much as often as I like now as I have the Pela pump.  I've used 507.00 (Total Quartz Ineo long life) for the last 6 or so oil changes - thinking it is the best oil spec'd for the engine - but I was wondering if anyone has opinions on whether 505.01 is a better choice if you change it frequently?

 

I imagine that being able to give "enough" protection for 15-20,000 miles might be at odds with giving the "best" protection over 5-10,000 miles, but I don't know much about this kind of stuff.  

[0wl]

507.00 is always 5W30. There is a school of thought that 5W40 in 505.01 form gives better protection for PD TDI engines due to the huge contact pressures between the relatively narrow camshaft lobes and the flat tappets / lifters.

This American site is a useful reference source:

http://www.myturbodiesel.com

This page in-particular talks about oils - read the camshaft wear issues section:

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/engine-oil-list-for-tdi-diesel/

[jimbof]

Thanks, I think it might have been posts on that site that got me thinking in the first place.

It seems to me there are two conflicting properties:

1) "thicker" oil providing a bit more "cushioning" to the camshaft

2) "thinner" oil getting round the engine quicker on cold startup.

I have no idea which is more important!

[dieselV6]

First part of the rating, i.e. the "5" in 5W-30 indicates cold flow properties, so 5W-30 and 5W-40 oils will have similar viscosity on a cold engine. The differences are when the oil is hot (the "30" and "40"), thicker oil usually has better ability to maintain continuous oil film on parts in physical contact (and thus protect against wear) at high temperatures and under mechanical pressure. If you want an even better cold flowing oil, you can get 0W-30 and 0W-40. I guess the ultimate protection oil (but pricey) would be a 0W-40 VW505.01 oil if such thing exists.

 

Note mileage is marginally worse with 40 weight oils, that is partly why 30 weight oils are in widespread use nowadays, and also the fact that car manufacturers do not care much about the engine once out of warranty.

 

I only decided to use 5W-40 as the car drives on autobahn at close to full power for extended periods of time and it is significant part of its mileage (ca 20%). Basically, I take into account that oil runs hotter in my car than on average. I still replace it at normal intervals, ie 9k-10k. It also helped that a few years back everyone had specials on 5W-40 505.01 rated oil, so getting the extra camshaft/valve lifter protection for less money than standard oil was nice.

 

5W-30 VW505/505.01 VW506/506.01or VW507 is OK, I use 5W-30 VW507 Castrol in the other car (1.6CR, so not much choice there). Large part of VW507 specification was low ash content, to prevent stuffing DPF too early. No such problems on DPF-free Mk1 Superbs.

[jimbof]

Thanks for the reply and detailed explanation.  I've got just about 4L left of 507 from the 17litres I bought last year, which is due to go into the car in a week or two, so I'll finish that, and then I think go onto 505.01.  

 

When I bought the car it was on 505.01, and I think for the first interval it used a little less oil.  The local dealership here were adamant that it would be better on the long life stuff, so blindly took their advice...  I currently get through about 4-500ml in 10,000 miles with 507.

[dieselV6]

You're welcome.

 

I only add oil after autobahn runs, around 0.25l per 1000 high speed miles. Had recently 9 months / 6k miles without autobahn runs and no extra oil was needed. So in normal use the car does not take any oil, despite 130k+ miles on the clock.

 

You are likely to be adding less when driving on 5W-40 than 5W-30, but I do not think the 505.01 spec will affect it, just oil weight (though the 505.01 spec offers better valve train protection). If you decide to stick to 5W-30 weight, you might as well buy 507, it's protection properties are similar to 505.01 (but ash content is much smaller) .

 

Do you plan to go to 5W-40 505.01, and which brand? Just curious, I'm fully stocked for next 2-3 years at the moment.

Edited 8 September, 2014 by dieselV6

[MarkTB]

How critical is the brand, if it meets the specification? Would say Halfords 505.01 be the same as Castrol 505.01 or VW Quantum 505.01 or do you truely benefit from a branded oil??

[dieselV6]

Not critical, I'm just curious about brand/price, I use TripleQX PD 5W-40 505.01 for the Superb, and Castrol FST or similar for the Roomster, sole reason were discounts on purchase, have used Halfords in the past on the Superb (they had buy1 get 1 free offer at some point in a distant past), I think for 5-6 changes and it worked. Just make sure it is full synthetic for the 505.01 oils (it will be full syntetic for VW507 oils).

Edited 8 September, 2014 by dieselV6

[jimbof]

I would probably get the Total one again - MC3 is the one which is 5W40 505.01.   From here:

http://www.nielsencdg.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000090.pl?WD=total%20mc3&PN=Total-Quartz-Ineo-MC3-5W40-Engine-Oil-174776-1-Litre--TOT_174776%2ehtml#SID=1065

I got my last lot from them, quick and efficient.  Can get 16 litres for a little over £72 delivered, in 1L bottles.  3 and a half go in the engine, which leaves half in the boot for the top-ups.

[0wl]

I use Petronas 3000AV 5w40 as it is easy to get locally from eurocarparts and reasonably priced. It is also on the VW approved oils list (505.01) as is the Triple QX PD oil.

If you are interested in using "approved" oils, I've put together this list of VAG approved oils that I originally posted in the Octavia Mk2 section (scroll to the 505.01 section which I've split by Viscosity):

My original link didn't work, but the list is in this post:

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/320854-octavia-mk2-engines-dpfs-cambelts-oils-brakes-and-servicing-info/

Edited 8 September, 2014 by 0wl

[Gaz]

I used Unipart Pro S 1700 5w40 for my last oil change.  I think it's stayed cleaner longer, and thought initially that the engine was quieter, although now I'm not so sure.  Doesn't use any oil at all, but it does occasionally sound a bit cammy.  Only for a second or so and usually when dropping down a cog and increasing the revs a bit quick.

 

Gaz

[jimbof]

I used a bottle of the Petronas Syntium AV 5000 (the 507 one) for my first DIY oil change - that definitely sounded a bit noisier to my ear than the Total I use now.

 

So do the V6 cams and lifters suffer similar failures to the 1.9?  Cam / lifter wear reduction is the main reason I'm interested in this.

 

Great list 0wl; notice it looks like you're only listing the 5W30 version of Total Quartz Ineo MC3 - they have a 5W40 version too, which is what I plan to use

[0wl]

The Syntium 5000 AV is 5W30 so is quite thin.

 

The list I linked to is what I compiled from VW's data.  Since I compiled the original list VW have updated their lists.  The latest 505.01 list is linked below, although in typical VW fashion the list isn't error free, as an example this list states the Euro Car Parts PD oil is 5W30 but it is actually 5W40:

 

https://erwin.volkswagen.de/erwin/volkswagen/files/oil/step_50200_50500_50501.pdf

[dieselV6]

So do the V6 cams and lifters suffer similar failures to the 1.9?  Cam / lifter wear reduction is the main reason I'm interested in this.

 

Only early V6 diesel ones, on Skoda it might be just 2002 and early 2003. The BDG era (163bhp) engines are sound, at least when it comes to cams/lifters, injection pump durability was also massively improved. Late 155bhp engines (2003/04) are also OK, though still have slightly less durable cam/valve assembly.

 

But as 5W40 PD oil protects cams/lifters better, I prefer it over 5W30. 

In my case, I want the 5W40 rating because oil going to turbocharger is quite hot when engine is working for extended periods at close to full power, the added cam/lifter protection is just a bonus, it is the turbocharger bearing wear I care about.

Edited 9 September, 2014 by dieselV6

[rotodiesel]

Turbocharger bearings don't wear in normal use as there's no metal to metal contact. The shaft floats on the oil film. Wear and damage occurs during the start up phase and is very greatly accelerated by varnish and ash build up on the shaft, which are deposits left by the lubricant.

 

Synthetic oils are vastly better in terms of varnish formation on a hot shaft, following engine shut down, when of course the oil flow stops. From the turbocharger's point of view, a 5W - 30 oil is perfectly safe and will establish a floating oil film with a cold engine much more quickly than would a thicker oil. I would never ever use a semi-synth oil to lubricate a turbocharger.

 

Cam wear is another factor - the PD engine has narrow valve actuating cams which wear under non-optimal conditions, whilst the over-engineered unit injector cams with their roller followers last for ever (thanks, Bosch). However, I have seen very few AWX/AVF engines when properly lubricated with 507.00 spec oils suffer from excessive camshaft wear, so I use it. Leaving out the lower "O" ring in the oil filter housing assembly is a good way to kill these engines - the sanitised "oil warning system" beloved by VAG allows this fault to go undetected. Observe that you can start these engines with an empty oil filter bowl following an oil change, and get no warning. When the dealers leave out the "O" ring or put it in the wrong groove, this happens every time...

 

rotodiesel.

[dieselV6]

Oil weight in turbocharger starts to matter at very high oil temps, above 110degC - 120degC sump temp, it is then better to use W40 rather than W30, basically you bring the viscosity down to similar as W30 at 100degC. Shaft does float on oil film, but that oil film can be partly broken with momentary turbocharger load/rpm changes.

Also, engine oil use/loss is consistently lower on with W40 oil than with W30 oil, checked it on my Mk1 Octy (1.9, did use some oil also in everyday driving). I agree with all other comments Roto.

[oh_superb]

My 2.5 tdi at 128k miles does not use any oil either.

With regards to the oils, I would only add this:

5W40 is usually mineral based oil (even if labelled semi synthetic, it is basically mostly mineral), so although when new will provide arguable more protection at high engine/oil temps than 5w30 of 505.01 (PD) spec, it will also oxidise significantly faster at high oil temperatures (over 120 deg C) than a fully synthetic base oil, turning to sludge which will disturb the normal operation of hydraulic lash adjusters and start bunging up the oil ways.  It will also have a tendency to form varnish on the crank big ends, TC bearings, and clog up the oil way into the small end bearing (although this is engine design dependent).  This is not applicable for normal use though.

So all in all, I still choose to stick with 505.01 synthetic lubricants of 5W30 rating (though if there is a 5W40 fully synthetic then yes it will offer more high speed high load protection), another reason being the fact that tappets go quiet more quickly on cold starts with the thinner grade.

For a while I used Mobil ESP 507 spec oil (5W30).  It is a very good product indeed, but their marketing led price hike has meant that at 50-60 quid a tub, they have out priced me with my "old banger".  I am very happy with GM Dexos 2 as an alternative, though was impressed with Castrol Edge too.  However, my contact at Mobil has promised a 25 litre tub of ESP at an employee rate, which will compare very favourably with the Dexos, so looking forward to jumping onto that!

Dexos 2 high wear additive pack is molybdenum based, arguably better than the old school zinc based (ZDDP) products that older 505.01 oils were based on, and so far my cams are surviving in the 2002 v6, so perhaps the theory stands.

Oil changes are easier with 5W30 too, especially in the winter   New stuff flows in easier, and the old stuff comes out much more quickly too, especially when using the oil extractor.

Edited 9 September, 2014 by oh_superb

[dieselV6]

Plenty of 5W-40 full synthetics nowadays, but yes, you need to check the label thoroughly. I always fully warm up the engine prior to change, so the only difference between summer and winter changes is the way I am dressed, otherwise they're the same. You mentioned you can hear tappets on start, I guess this is the noticeable difference of earlier V6s when compared to BDG. Never had it. Slight hesitation when very cold before firing evenly, but no mechanical tappet noise.

[ah101]

My car is a 1.9 awx engine with 230k miles.

Runs as sweet as a nut, doesn't consume any more oil than the day I got it with 10k miles on it. Never have to top it up between oil changes which I do every 10k miles. Still returns 50+ mpg.

The oil I always use is Millers XFE PD. On the rare occasion that I get the dealer to do the oil change, which is essentially each cambelt / water pump change I even give them the Millers oil rather than the much more expensive VW stuff.

[jimbof]

I was interested in the Miller's oils when I started looking at this, but it annoyed me a little that though they claim VW standard, they've never made it onto the VW approved lists.

[DGW]

That will be because they haven't submitted it to VW for testing and approval.

[oh_superb]

Plenty of 5W-40 full synthetics nowadays, but yes, you need to check the label thoroughly. I always fully warm up the engine prior to change, so the only difference between summer and winter changes is the way I am dressed, otherwise they're the same. You mentioned you can hear tappets on start, I guess this is the noticeable difference of earlier V6s when compared to BDG. Never had it. Slight hesitation when very cold before firing evenly, but no mechanical tappet noise.

 

Only a couple of tappets, they take a few seconds to quieten down, probably coming from the LH cylinder head (as the RH one was changed at 74k due to seized glow plugs).

I remember having a play with the old head when it was off the car, and at that mileage several of the tappets were compressible (yikes), and the cam followers had flat wear areas (ooh, nasty), but the cams were still good.

I can only guess that the flats are now even flatter (!) on the other head and the soggy tappets are even soggier 

The BDG is a much better engine I think in terms of valve train design.  The roller followers are good in principle, the only weakness (I experienced on another manufacturer diesel engine with a similar solution) was that the roller follower needle bearings (made by our friend INA) get ground to iron paste in high carbon content oil…. Well, carbon is after all what diamonds are made of, and diamond is what the hardest tools of the trade are made of.

So regardless of what the manufacturer says, regular oil changes on a diesel engine are a must.  You look after yours well, so I am sure that you can take her to very high miles.  I am not that convinced with my AYM    despite all the quality oil services, without spending cash on replacing those bits in a few tens of thousands of miles.  But at the moment it's OK I think.  The auto tranny might also let go at some point… so I think I'll ride this one out to death - whenever that might be  :peek:  LOL.

[098Joe]

I read an interesting article written by an oil industry chemist, and he was saying oil change intervals are entirely based on worse case scenarios, and that for my type of driving (35 miles each way commute on fast a road) modern fully synthetic oils can easily cope with 20 000 mile intervals.  I applied that to my previous car (Honda Accord) and it was still going strong at 176000 miles.  

[rotodiesel]

I would generally agree with this, but with two qualifications uniquely related to diesel engine applications. The first is soot loading of the oil. Unlike commercial engines, the small VAG units have no oil bypass filter (older diesel M-Bs did) and the soot loading of the oil can increase to the point of eventual criticality. The other is fuel dilution, which is potentially more serious, as no oil additive package can mitigate against its effects. Diluted oil is a poor lubricant which will endanger the engine and turbocharger.

 

The PD is a good engine from the point of view of dilution, due to exceptionally good fuel atomisation resulting from the high delivery pressure. It is less good with soot loading. Some DPF equipped engines (Mazda, Volvo) are, in my opinion, unworkable in terms of fuel dilution - Mazda diesels even have a "crisis mark" above the upper level indicator on the dipstick. A diesel engine can - and will - run away if the oil level is excessive, especially when diluted with fuel.

 

The conventional low pressure injectors fitted to the V6 need to be kept in good order to avoid poor atomisation and consequent dilution of the oil with fuel.

 

I have done no work on the V6 as it is unsuitable for my job, but for the PD I would recommend an oil change interval of between 7 and 10k miles or annually, using fully synthetic oil, preferably of 5W - 30 viscosity and always meeting VAG spec. 507.00. I have seen many PDs with starship mileages on the original camshaft operating under this regime. The camshaft bearing shells are always shot when removed, but this generally is of no great consequence if the lobe lift and cam/follower surface conditions are adequate.

 

rotodiesel.

[jimbof]

I lost a Peugeot 307 DPF and Turbo to diesel thinning the oil, raising the level and causing engine runaway.  Not pretty.

From what I understand, the issue is caused by the ECU programming for the DPF, which injects some fuel at the "wrong" time during DPF regeneration to get the temperature up.  Excessive regeneration attempts from rubbish system design, over short period of time, causes the level to rise too much.

 

I was glad to get shot of that car, and very glad to have a DPF-less car now