Engine build question

[MotorsportFinland]

Hello to You all from Finland,

 

Does anyone here have an answer for me..

 

I have a 130L engine and I want to increase cylinder capacity for racing purposes, does a Fabia 1.4 pushrod engine have the same crankshaft length as the earlier engines? I do know that the bearing sizes are not the same, but how about the distance between main bearing locations..?

 

Best Regards

 

Timo

[hawkeracing]

You can fit the Fabia crank if you have a later 130 engine but you need to modify a few bits.....and the crank is massively heavy. Easiest way is to get in touch with Speedpro.cz and get 77mm liners and pistons - takes 1289cc to 1340cc with no down side.

[KenONeill]

What are your class capacity limits? Also, can you run a turbocharged engine, and if so what's the "equvalency factor"? It may be that the best answer is not to try and increase the capacity of a wet liner block.

[hawkeracing]

You say that as if it's a warning Ken?

[KenONeill]

Why do you think that? I mean, if he's trying to get into, say, a 1320cc to 2020cc class, a 1340cc engine is not going to be competitive. A 1299cc turbo with a 1.5x equivalency factor might be.

[hawkeracing]

Ok....it was the mentioning of the wet liner engine, as though increasing the bore was somehow risky. I would take a wild guess at 1400cc or possibly 1500cc being the class because you'd have to be mental if you were aiming at anything higher with the engine. It's possible with the Favorit crank and the 77mm liner conversion to get to virtually 1500cc as they did in the Felicia kitcars in the 1990s. Places in CZ advertise modification of the Fabia crank to fit the 130 and 136 engines.

[MotorsportFinland]

Thank You for a quick answer..

 

In what way a later type 130 engine differs from an earlier one?

 

Yes, I am a bit mental   but the class limit is 1599cc, and forced induction is not allowed. I am aiming for the highest cc one can reach at a reasonable effort minding that the engine has to keep all the parts secured inside since it is a rally car and there is a long way ahead along season.

 

Is the Favorit crank a better choice than the Fabia crank? Why? Stroke?

[hawkeracing]

I also race my Estelle and the capacity limit is 1400cc for me. I run 1340cc - pistons are easily available from Engitec in CZ http://engitec.cz/shop/index.php    I think they also do Fabia cranks modified to 130 engines. Not sure of the final capacity you get with the Fabia crank and 77mm pistons but it is close to 1500cc. In terms of outright power - are you allowed to run the later 136 engine? The 8 port head on one (or if...like me :sun: ....you can find an iron 8 port) is worth far more than extra capacity. To put it into context - I had 95bhp with 1289cc and 5 port head.....going up to 1340cc got me to 101bhp.....throwing in the iron 8 port head (works spec one) took me to 129bhp with exactly the same cam and bottom end.

[KenONeill]

Ok....it was the mentioning of the wet liner engine, as though increasing the bore was somehow risky. I would take a wild guess at 1400cc or possibly 1500cc being the class because you'd have to be mental if you were aiming at anything higher with the engine. It's possible with the Favorit crank and the 77mm liner conversion to get to virtually 1500cc as they did in the Felicia kitcars in the 1990s. Places in CZ advertise modification of the Fabia crank to fit the 130 and 136 engines.

Ah I get you. My thinking, aside from "best fit to class" was that getting above mid-1300s CC with a wet liner engine probably needs a long-stroke crank, which can get expensive and starts cranking up piston speed, hence pumping and windage losses, and eventually limits revs and hence potential power. So it's sort of "if I wanted a 1600 I'm not sure I'd start from here".

[KenONeill]

I also race my Estelle and the capacity limit is 1400cc for me. I run 1340cc - pistons are easily available from Engitec in CZ http://engitec.cz/shop/index.php    I think they also do Fabia cranks modified to 130 engines. Not sure of the final capacity you get with the Fabia crank and 77mm pistons but it is close to 1500cc. In terms of outright power - are you allowed to run the later 136 engine? The 8 port head on one (or if...like me :sun: ....you can find an iron 8 port) is worth far more than extra capacity. To put it into context - I had 95bhp with 1289cc and 5 port head.....going up to 1340cc got me to 101bhp.....throwing in the iron 8 port head (works spec one) took me to 129bhp with exactly the same cam and bottom end.

 

That suggests that the Fabia crank, 77mm pistons, 136 block and iron head might make about 140bhp? (based on your actual engine and percentage capacity change) 

[hawkeracing]

The Felicia kitcars in the mid 90s with the 136 engine and 1500cc put out 150bhp according to the spec sheets. I am re-building my engine to a slightly higher spec than it was at the moment and expect (hope!!!) the outcome to be at least 134bhp. Basically it's possible to get 100bhp per litre but not a lot more I don't think......time will tell though!

[MotorsportFinland]

I can use any block all the way up to Felicia, so 136 is ok if it is the best one?

I do have also a real gold ingot, an iron head from the 70's..

[hawkeracing]

Use the 8 port iron head then....it will bolt straight onto the 130 block (torqueing up the studs on the inlet/exhaust side is a nightmare though!) and with 77mm liners you should be able to produce over 130 bhp with the right cam. Do you have matched inlet manifolds for it? What size valves does it have?

[MotorsportFinland]

Our iron head had a matched manifold for single 45 DCOE, but we are going to make a new manifold for two 45's. I am unable to check valve sizes because the head is still at the moment in my friends warehouse.

 

What is the difference between the "old" and "new" 130 block?

Is there any difference to 136 block?

[hawkeracing]

You can't use a 136 block with the iron head - needs to be a 120 or 130. You also need to fit studs instead of head bolts on the inlet/exhaust side of the block....which it's virtually impossible to torque down as they sit in a gallery!

 

This is my head.....valves fill the chamber..

 

 

Massive ports too (old photo - it's cleaner these days!)

 

[KenONeill]

Our iron head had a matched manifold for single 45 DCOE, but we are going to make a new manifold for two 45's. I am unable to check valve sizes because the head is still at the moment in my friends warehouse.

 

What is the difference between the "old" and "new" 130 block?

Is there any difference to 136 block?

You probably know this, but twin DCOs are a waste of time/money with a 5 port head, only use them with an 8 port.

[MotorsportFinland]

Yes, I do know that 1 barrel per inlet port is best.. Thats why we are going to use two 45's with 8 port iron head.

I just realized that the bolt patterns seems to be not the same between 130 block and Favorit onwards.. :no:

at least when comparing the head gaskets.

[hawkeracing]

The bolt pattern is not the same MotorsportFinland....that's the point. If you have a cast iron 8 port head then you need a 130 block really (it will work on a 120 as long as you have matched chambers and valves)

[MotorsportFinland]

What is the history behind your iron 8 port head?

Are those inlet manifolds old ones or those been sold today in CZ?

[hawkeracing]

I have not much idea about the history....I got it from a man in Northern Ireland who had bought it in the 1990s and never used it. It needed a lot of work doing to bring it up to standard as the valves were all crap and the rocker gear was incomplete. What I can say is that it started life as a 120 version and had some serious work done on it to bring it up to full 130RS type spec by someone. The inlets are matched to my head with pins to fit them in place, but I believe for about 300eur you can still get something similar in CZ.

[MotorsportFinland]

So the head is most likely from a 120S, are the rockers etc. interchangeable from a normal 5 port head?

[hawkeracing]

No! I had to have a set of rockers modified to fit.....can't recall exactly what we did now but we had to splice 2 sets together. You should also have a special rocker cover to go with it

[MotorsportFinland]

Our head was last on top of a 80's (?) 120 block which had oversize liners (Renault Gordini R8 ?). Unfortunately for the owner but lucky for us one of the rods had broken and came through the block.. engine sat under the workbench about 10 years waiting for us.. :clap:

That thing about the rockers and rocker cover has to be checked since I think remembering close resemblance between normal 5 port cover because this was a steel one too, not casted..

[hawkeracing]

120 blocks don't have room for very big liners so it's the head is probably not fitted with very big valves. What blocks and liners do you have to use? The tin rocker cover from a 120 should fit I think but you should be able to buy the proper cast item from CZ still I think.

[hawkeracing]

This is what you should have -