BBC news - Court puts more heat on diesels

[bluecar1]

I am posting this as there has been many threads on CAT removal of diesels

 

the article seems to indicate the EU court may impose rules on diesel emissions and checks that mean diesels conform to manufacturer levels

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30119279

 

 

The UK government will come under renewed pressure to cut pollution from diesel vehicles following the latest ruling in a battle over clean air.

Nitrogen dioxide in cities is illegally high and the European Court of Justice ruled judges must force ministers to clean up the air as soon as possible.

The pollutant comes almost entirely from diesel vehicles.

The group that brought the case says the government now has no choice but to restrict diesel emissions.

They say that could force ministers to order a major retrofit of pollution controls on buses and lorries; ban diesel cars from cities; and install new technology to ensure that diesel cars comply with the emissions data from manufacturers.

that could be interesting, will the EU compensate drivers who live in the cities and have purchased diesels for £0 road tax?

[xman]

that could be interesting, will the EU compensate drivers who live in the cities and have purchased diesels for £0 road tax?

Dont be daft.....

[vxh26]

And the rest . . .

 

It’s estimated that 29,000 people die early each year from air pollution in the UK. The government is supposed to have cleaned up nitrogen dioxide pollution in cities by 2015 – but has been proposing to achieve the goal by 2030.

. . . blame the U K Government.

 

ps - Diesels aren't spelt that way by mistake

[pearce_jj]

I reckon this must have been known to be coming in the industry for a long time, since as we're seeing a lot of petrol development.

[Ootohere]

Lots of Diesel Hybrid developments from Mercedes, BMW and Audi as well.

New cars due out, new Audi factories built to build the engines.

 

http://greencarreports.com/news/clean-diesel

Edited 21 November, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[seboni121]

Seems that the diesel driven car is finished as a mode of transport, with all the technology to help emissions (DPF) it's restricting the mpg and hindering the diesel lump, I'm currently running petrol and diesel car and there's about 5-10 mpg difference the 1.6tdi gets 65mpg and the 1.2 petrol i10 gets around 62mpg, the golf was £23,000 and the i10 was £10,000 so is it really economical these days to go for any diesel

[bluecar1]

Seems that the diesel driven car is finished as a mode of transport, with all the technology to help emissions (DPF) it's restricting the mpg and hindering the diesel lump, I'm currently running petrol and diesel car and there's about 5-10 mpg difference the 1.6tdi gets 65mpg and the 1.2 petrol i10 gets around 62mpg, the golf was £23,000 and the i10 was £10,000 so is it really economical these days to go for any diesel

this is my dilemma, I love a diesel and been driving them for nearly 20 years, now I come to replace my GLII I am looking at the fabia 3 and seeing a £2000 premium for the 1.4TDi and thinking how many miles would I have to drive before I see a return?

 

it will be interesting to see if taxi's start returning to petrol as it is not economical when you take into account full life running costs

 

my other dilemma is the new polo looks better value (and cheaper when you spec a fabia 3 to the same levels as a polo) than the new fabia 3

Edited 22 November, 2014 by bluecar1

[fabiamk2SE]

this is my dilemma, I love a diesel and been driving them for nearly 20 years, now I come to replace my GLII I am looking at the fabia 3 and seeing a £2000 premium for the 1.4TDi and thinking how many miles would I have to drive before I see a return?

it will be interesting to see if taxi's start returning to petrol as it is not economical when you take into account full life running costs

my other dilemma is the new polo looks better value (and cheaper when you spec a fabia 3 to the same levels as a polo) than the new fabia 3

Slightly off topic sorry.

But have you driven a 1.2 tsi?

[Gazbull17]

The Fabia 3 will have full list prices before launch but that's not the price you'll end up paying, VW and Seat are discounting at the minute so there's no way anyone would pay more for a Skoda and the dealers will know that.

As for diesels, unless you do a lot of motorway miles or tow trailers/caravans then why would you buy a supermini diesel when modern petrol engines are nearly as economical and don't give as much away in torque now as they're nearly all turbo'd.

I had diesels for about 10 years before my TSI and for the mileage and driving I do now, I wouldn't go back to Derv.

Nissan were developing a new London Taxi with a CVT gearbox and 1.6 petrol engine that was more economical than the current black cabs but they've shelved it until it's decided if London will be designated zero emission zone.

[Ootohere]

No reason why the UK Government do not start a proper scrappage scheme and Tax Breaks so that 

all City Only Taxis and Local Authority Vehicles,

& Utility Vehicles that never leave a City can not be EV's.

 

The UK Diesel Car Scrappage Scheme will be announced quite soon i expect.  Maybe in this next Pre-Budget.

To Bolster the Car Manufacturing and the Economy.

 

Maybe get rid of some Buses, Vans and Light & Heavy Dirty Diesels that are Clogging up other road users Air Filters & Lungs.

& some of those crap Euro 5 Emission Diesels that the stupid bought as city runabouts and short journey transport with the £2,000 from the last Scrappage Scheme in the UK.

 

george

Edited 22 November, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[dieselV6]

The first diesels genuinely addressing NOx emissions are EU6 diesels coming in this/next  year. NOx were part addressed earlier on by the EGR system, but trucks and similar had massive allowances. HGVs and buses, depending on age, have NOx allowances 4x-8x larger per kWh than passenger cars (and a lot more kWh too), so if it is really about emissions in town, the age of the commercial fleet should be addressed first.

 

Have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards

 

I think in the UK an easy way of addressing NOx would be introducing NOx limit as part of every car/van/truck/bus diesel engine MOT test, broadly in line with what engines were supposed to have fulfilled at time of purchase (e.g. 2x new engine limit, so people do not complain when old but well maintained car emits a bit more). And roadside NOx spot checks with £££s fines, initially on commercial vehicles in towns only, to discourage the use of EGR blanking plates and similar contraptions post MOT. 

Edited 22 November, 2014 by dieselV6

[lol-lol]

And the rest . . .

. . . blame the U K Government.

 

ps - Diesels aren't spelt that way by mistake

 

[vxh26]

No reason why the UK Government do not start a proper scrappage scheme and Tax Breaks so that 

all City Only Taxis and Local Authority Vehicles,

& Utility Vehicles that never leave a City can not be EV's.

 

The UK Diesel Car Scrappage Scheme will be announced quite soon i expect.  Maybe in this next Pre-Budget.

To Bolster the Car Manufacturing and the Economy.

 

Maybe get rid of some Buses, Vans and Light & Heavy Dirty Diesels that are Clogging up other road users Air Filters & Lungs.

& some of those crap Euro 5 Emission Diesels that the stupid bought as city runabouts and short journey transport with the £2,000 from the last Scrappage Scheme in the UK.

 

george

Now that IS an interesting idea.

 

As you say, such a scheme might get some of the worst polluting vehicles off the road. However, I doubt that it will happen because it would be deemed to be supporting some "commercial" vehicle users at the expense of others.

 

In the case of the earlier scrappage scheme the objectives were to get unsafe privately owned vehicles off the road and at the behest of the SMMT to stimulate the motor industry; the benefits would be differnet this time.

[Ootohere]

But it is happening now to some extent if you check the actual Tax Breaks available to Commercial users.

 

http://www.clean-transport.co.uk/electric-vehicle-tax-incentives

 

If you check on the last Scrappage Scheme we paid lots to get good cars with a MOT off the road.

It was not cars that had failed a MOT or was joeyed up that were scrapped in many cases.

 

Many High Polluting cars stayed on the Road with not very high VED.

& many not so safe still scrape through the rather easy UK MOT.

 

£2000 from the Government did not help many people with not enough money to buy a NEW Euro 5 Emission 

car that the Government wanted people to buy.  

So they still have old cars that get through a MOT still or buy older cars with a MOT and keep them running and doing the planet a favour.

Edited 22 November, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[Ootohere]

http://sbcscot.com/scottish-businesses-switching-to-electric-vehicle-fleets

Edited 22 November, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[Brian69]

Diesel is for tractors and buses :p.

[bluecar1]

Slightly off topic sorry.

But have you driven a 1.2 tsi?

I drive a 1.2TDi 75ps greenline II, can't be much slower, the son in law has a spaceback with the 1.2TSi 105PS and that is not bad

[fabiamk2SE]

I drive a 1.2TDi 75ps greenline II, can't be much slower, the son in law has a spaceback with the 1.2TSi 105PS and that is not bad

Speed isnt the thing. No fabia mk2 is even slightly fast IMO.

Its how it delivers the power

The 1.2 tsi is torquey from quite low down. Makes for a decent driving experience IMO.

The 1.2 tsi 105 would be enough to draw me away from the CR105 personally.

[marcusthehat]

I stepped outta a Galaxy with a slightly remapped VW 110BHP TDI engine.

Straight into a 1.2TSI engined Yeti for a test drive.

I was truely gobsmaked at how torquey the wee 1.2TSI was, I never stalled once, despite 250,000 miles of diesel torque conditioning.

Now that says a whole lot.

I am currently telling our Son to look at a modern petrol engined car, even though he fancies a wee diesel.

Ditto for a mate who just today I heard recommending to his Son to buy a Hyundai I10, even though he himself was/is a diesel fanatic.

I however will drive the 1.6TDI until it becomes troublesome or beyond economic repair, fingers crossed.

m

[fabiamk2SE]

I stepped outta a Galaxy with a slightly remapped VW 110BHP TDI engine.

Straight into a 1.2TSI engined Yeti for a test drive.

I was truely gobsmaked at how torquey the wee 1.2TSI was, I never stalled once, despite 250,000 miles of diesel torque conditioning.

Now that says a whole lot.

I am currently telling our Son to look at a modern petrol engined car, even though he fancies a wee diesel.

Ditto for a mate who just today I heard recommending to his Son to buy a Hyundai I10, even though he himself was/is a diesel fanatic.

I however will drive the 1.6TDI until it becomes troublesome or beyond economic repair, fingers crossed.

m

Exactly. Thats why i said it. .

Its brill tbf.

Diesels are going, but petrols are getting much better too. Even small engines with turbos. Not as revvy and peaky as they were IMO.

[dieselV6]

For anyone travelling abroad, an instant observation is that diesel fuel in most EU is still 20% cheaper than petrol, and until that changes, diesel cars will sell well there. Eg. Carrefour in Calais sells diesel at £0.95 per litre, and petrol at £1.12 per litre. Compared to rest of Europe, UK market is quite a bit distorted through over-taxation of diesel fuel as well as profit taking by the forecourts.

 

Diesel powered car is also safer for its occupants, as the risk of an explosion is nonexistent, and a risk o a violent engine fire is vastly reduced. 

 

So I would not write diesels off just yet, but I sure would appreciate some car company going back to drawing board and redesigning EU6 diesel engine from scracth, with just SCR/Adblue, possibly EGR but no DPF at all, instead of stuffing all 3 systems in as it happens now. Even SCR only design is doable, and the reduction in complexity would make diesels reliable again, as they were around EU3/EU4 regs.

Edited 22 November, 2014 by dieselV6

[lol-lol]

For anyone travelling abroad, an instant observation is that diesel fuel in most EU is still 20% cheaper than petrol, and until that changes, diesel cars will sell well there. Eg. Carrefour in Calais sells diesel at £0.95 per litre, and petrol at £1.12 per litre. Compared to rest of Europe, UK market is quite a bit distorted through over-taxation of diesel fuel as well as profit taking by the forecourts.

 

Diesel powered car is also safer for its occupants, as the risk of an explosion is nonexistent, and a risk o a violent engine fire is vastly reduced. 

 

So I would not write diesels off just yet, but I sure would appreciate some car company going back to drawing board and redesigning EU6 diesel engine from scracth, with just SCR/Adblue, possibly EGR but no DPF at all, instead of stuffing all 3 systems in as it happens now. Even SCR only design is doable, and the reduction in complexity would make diesels reliable again, as they were around EU3/EU4 regs.

 

Diesel is unpatriotic for the UK.  The North Sea produces light oil which main produces petrol whereas diesel has to be mainly imported. 

Proposal for London for starters is to charge all cars that cannot meet EUR6 to be charged £10 a day for enetering London last I heard.  Like with company car tax diesel should be charged an extra 3 scale points on road tax IMO because of their dirty emmision particularly in soot ie PM10 and PM2.5s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulate which is about three times higher than petrol cars.   Diesel should be phased out until it can be cleaned up or atleast levied and the proceeds reinvested until it get a lot cleaner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards

 

Tier Date CO THC NMHC NOx HC+NOx PM P***

Diesel

Euro 1† July 1992 2.72 (3.16) - - - 0.97 (1.13) 0.14 (0.18) -

Euro 2 January 1996 1.0 - - - 0.7 0.08 -

Euro 3 January 2000 0.64 - - 0.50 0.56 0.05 -

Euro 4 January 2005 0.50 - - 0.25 0.30 0.025 -

Euro 5 September 2009 0.50 - - 0.180 0.230 0.005 -

Euro 6 September 2014 0.50 - - 0.080 0.170 0.005 -

Petrol (Gasoline)

Euro 1† July 1992 2.72 (3.16) - - - 0.97 (1.13) - -

Euro 2 January 1996 2.2 - - - 0.5 - -

Euro 3 January 2000 2.3 0.20 - 0.15 - - -

Euro 4 January 2005 1.0 0.10 - 0.08 - - -

Euro 5 September 2009 1.0 0.10 0.068 0.060 - 0.005** -

Euro 6 September 2014 1.0 0.10 0.068 0.060 - 0.005** -

Edited 23 November, 2014 by lol-lol

[Ootohere]

Road fuel for Transporting (almost) all goods around the UK will stay as Derv (Diesel) because there is no practical alternative.

 

No reason the are not having better 'Rail Heads' and Distribution Centers, Trailers on Trains, & HGV & Trailers on Trains like from Stirling/Perh  to Inverness if there are no drops anyplace between.

&

with the Loads / Trailers then changed & hitched onto Electric Tractor Units,

or into Light Commercial EV's for transportation and deliveries into Cities and large Towns.

Edited 23 November, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[Huskoda]

So they gave diesels EGRs to reduce various emissions. But they made them more sooty.

So they gave diesels DPFs to clear up some of that soot. But they pushed NOx emissions right up.

So they are giving diesels Adblue, to clear the NOx, that comes from clearing the soot that comes from the EGR.

Got forward a few more years and you wont be able to get small diesel cars as the exhaust will be 15m long due to all the components along it. Im done with diesel, its just getting stupid.

The EU6 obsession about NOx is very much like the previous obsession with CO2. Is it another stat we are going to be seeing on cars?

[dazz600]

No wonder the mk1 fab vrs holds it's price so well

One of the best car/ engine combinations ever imho