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2003 Skoda Octavia 1.9TDI Issues


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Hi guys, hoping someone here can give me some help with my car. It’s a diesel ‘03 Skoda Octavia Ambiente Estate, 1.9 TDI, automatic gearbox with an ALH engine. There are a few issues that hopefully someone can shed some light on:

 

Overheating

For the last week or so the engine has been overheating to the point of engine warning lights coming on and STOP flashing on the display. The temp gauge hovers around 100 for a few mins before gradually climbing to the point of warning. The car had seperate coolant level warnings during the summer (July approx.) which was tracked down to 1) a new engine temperature sensor not fitted properly and 2) the seal on the new temp sensor had to be replaced as coolant was still leaking. Since then the engine had been running perfectly using only water as coolant. In the last week the water level has dropped and there appeared to be water on top of the gearbox below the engine temp sensor. Initially I assumed the leak had returned but I got no coolant level warnings and when the car overheated, the water was boiling in the expansion tank. I’m assuming the water on top of the gearbox may have been from the overflow. 

 

A mechanic friend of mine drained the water and replaced it with coolant, before this I could drive about 30 – 40 mins without any overheating. With the coolant I get about an hour’s driving before the needle climbs above 90.  There’s plenty of hot air in the vents/fans in the dash.  Having read up a little on this issue, potential causes could be the thermostat or the dreaded head gasket. Anyone got any tips on where to go from here in isolating the cause?

 

Judder

The car has developed a judder when mildly accelerating from 60kph in top gear. It’s very bad when going uphill and the only way to get it to stop is to drop a gear or ease off the accelerator. It can also occur when driving at around 100kph when taking a bend in the road. My mechanic buddy and his friend had a look and said the engine mounting on the gearbox side had a bit too much play and replaced with a mounting from a 99 Octavia. The problem remained afterwards and I’m not sure if his is due to the replacement being worn or the engine mount not being the problem. He also blocked off the EGR valve but the judder was still there. The gearbox was serviced during the summer with fluid and filter replaced, the judder was there beforehand and remained after.

 

 Another issue that may be related to this is a creaking/groaning noise when turning left at speeds above 80kph. In reading up on this I came across a forum post where someone mentioned it could be the CV joints at fault for the judder (mechanic doesn’t think so though he did say he had to repair one of the boots on one of the joints with a clip). Worst case scenario, injectors?

 

Surge

The surge occurs mostly when cold and again is very noticeable when going uphill.  If I’m going 80kph and above uphill, the engine revs ‘surge’ by about 200rpm and return to normal again, this might occur a few times before the road levels out. Have put this separately but think it may be related to the judder. It’s not a serious issue but maybe of diagnostic value to someone here?

 

Apologies for the long post but I’d like to get the car sorted as replacing it is not an option at the moment and it’s still giving me over 50mpg!

 

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Is the engine emitting any white smoke?, is there any oil in the coolant tank?, is there any signs of water in the oil on the dipstick, or any white mayonnaise on the inside of the oil filler cap?. Why did your mechanic have to put a clip on the cv boot?, was the boot actually off the shaft and open to elements?.

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Is the engine emitting any white smoke?, is there any oil in the coolant tank?, is there any signs of water in the oil on the dipstick, or any white mayonnaise on the inside of the oil filler cap?. Why did your mechanic have to put a clip on the cv boot?, was the boot actually off the shaft and open to elements?.

 Thanks for the reply. No white smoke from the engine and no oil in the coolant tank (no discolouration of either water or coolant). Will check for water in oil on dipstick and mayonaise on the filler cap in the morning. I think he said there was a small leak from the cv boot, I'm hoping it was nothing serious but will ask further if the boot was off the joint and exposed (could a cv joint cause the juddering I've described?). Also I have this post up on another site and one reply there says the gearbox is dying...eek! 

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These types of problem are just a logical process really, when you've eliminated all that it can't be, you are only really left with what it is. Did you get to see the old oil when it was changed?, was it black and smelling burnt?. You need to check the driveshafts for any up/down movement in the joints or movement in the diff bearings where the shafts attach to the gearbox.

 

To be honest this is not easy without either getting the car safely in the air on a jack and supported on stands or on a ramp. Also, while you have the car in the air, look for any movement in the front wheels in the 6-12 o clock plane and the 3-9 o clock plane. The dogbone mount would also be worth checking while you are there.

A good check of all the exhaust mounts would be wise too, also a check on the wishbone bushes for movement as you are getting noises when turning.

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Overheating i'd suspect a stuck thermostat - do you get water flowing into the expansion tank when the car is up to temperature - if not thermostat is stuck in the closed position.

Judder - may be ball joints on track rod ends - has tracking been checked as this can cause judder (had a judder on mine before track rods and tie rods were replaced recently)

Surge - never came across this problem on mine so far but lots of people on here have had the problem - try searching on the forum

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i had a similar heating problem on a mk2 - turned out to be the thermostat.  As you were flushing the coolant, you should have done the thermostat at the same time for the sake of £10!

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Is the engine emitting any white smoke?, is there any oil in the coolant tank?, is there any signs of water in the oil on the dipstick, or any white mayonnaise on the inside of the oil filler cap?. Why did your mechanic have to put a clip on the cv boot?, was the boot actually off the shaft and open to elements?.

 

Ok so I checked for water in the oil on the dipstick and its just oil there, no sign of water. No mayonaise on the inside of the oil filler cap. 

 

These types of problem are just a logical process really, when you've eliminated all that it can't be, you are only really left with what it is. Did you get to see the old oil when it was changed?, was it black and smelling burnt?. You need to check the driveshafts for any up/down movement in the joints or movement in the diff bearings where the shafts attach to the gearbox.

 

To be honest this is not easy without either getting the car safely in the air on a jack and supported on stands or on a ramp. Also, while you have the car in the air, look for any movement in the front wheels in the 6-12 o clock plane and the 3-9 o clock plane. The dogbone mount would also be worth checking while you are there.

A good check of all the exhaust mounts would be wise too, also a check on the wishbone bushes for movement as you are getting noises when turning.

 

I saw the old gearbox oil and it wasn't burnt looking or smelling, it did have a greyish kind of colour to it. My mechanic mate said the oil had a gritty texture to it but as he didn't see any shavings or other swarf he said it was ok. The car was on the lift a few weeks ago to have a look at the dogbone mount, there was no excessive movement in it when they took it off to have a look. The rubber looked good, no signs of cracks, softness or any kind of perishing. Will get him to put the car on the lift again and investigate the driveshafts as well as checking for movement in the wheels, exhaust mounts and bushes. 

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i had a similar heating problem on a mk2 - turned out to be the thermostat.  As you were flushing the coolant, you should have done the thermostat at the same time for the sake of £10!

 

It's one more thing to look at but there's coolant returning to the expansion tank so wouldn't this mean the thermostat is working ok?

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Overheating i'd suspect a stuck thermostat - do you get water flowing into the expansion tank when the car is up to temperature - if not thermostat is stuck in the closed position.

Judder - may be ball joints on track rod ends - has tracking been checked as this can cause judder (had a judder on mine before track rods and tie rods were replaced recently)

Surge - never came across this problem on mine so far but lots of people on here have had the problem - try searching on the forum

 

Thermostat will be looked at but there is coolant returning to the expansion tank. Tracking and wheel balancing was done when I got four new tires in September and the judder was still the same after. Will have a look here about the surge problem. Thanks!

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I would just double check you haven't gone over a speed bump and damaged the exhaust or bent it to disturb its alignment while you are there.

 

When the car overheats, are the cooling fans running?. A local garage can carry out a test on your cooling system to "sniff" for combustion gases in the coolant for quite reasonable outlay to confirm or deny a headgasket.

 

The surge could be flare in the gearbox clutches, but that really needs specialist test equipment to accurately diagnose the pressures in the box to see if it is mechanical or hydraulic failure. This realistically would mean a transmission specialist or a main agent really.  It could also be linked to your vibration, I believe the transmission cooler is built into the main rad, but I will double check to be sure, if so, your overheating may be compromising gearbox oil temperature.

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I've just checked, and you should have a dedicated transmission cooler on top of the transmission, but it still links into the main coolant system so one would definitely impact on the other.

 

Does the judder occur from cold or after the engine has warmed up/overheating?.

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I would just double check you haven't gone over a speed bump and damaged the exhaust or bent it to disturb its alignment while you are there.

When the car overheats, are the cooling fans running?. A local garage can carry out a test on your cooling system to "sniff" for combustion gases in the coolant for quite reasonable outlay to confirm or deny a headgasket.

The surge could be flare in the gearbox clutches, but that really needs specialist test equipment to accurately diagnose the pressures in the box to see if it is mechanical or hydraulic failure. This realistically would mean a transmission specialist or a main agent really. It could also be linked to your vibration, I believe the transmission cooler is built into the main rad, but I will double check to be sure, if so, your overheating may be compromising gearbox oil temperature.

The fans aren't running when the engine overheats, I've never heard the fan running after the igÍnition is switched off on this car. Will add testing the coolant to the list of things to check! There is coolant in the car since last Sunday, for about 3/4 months before that I had been using water in the coolant system without issue. Would the water/coolant discolour if gases were getting into it?

Will have a chat with a few more mechanics about testing pressures in the box, so far I have only the one guy whose experience with automatic gearboxes is limited.

I've just checked, and you should have a dedicated transmission cooler on top of the transmission, but it still links into the main coolant system so one would definitely impact on the other.

Does the judder occur from cold or after the engine has warmed up/overheating?.

The judder occurs when the engine is both cold and warmed up. The judder has been happening long before the car started to overheat. To be honest it's been there so long (about 7/8 months, mild initially) I'm beginning to wonder if I've permanently damaged either the gearbox or the torque converter, assuming one of them is the culprit! Could a failing torque converter cause judder initially for a few months and then cause both overheating and juddering?

To throw another possibility out there, my house mate reckons there could be a blocked pipe in the radiator? So many possibilities, dunno where to start! Really appreciate your help on this, as you said it's a process of elimination.

Edit - just to say the abs controller was serviced by a different mechanic during the summer. I brought it to him initially to have the handbrake adjusted as it was a fail in the NCT. While he was doing that he noticed the abs was acting up - not sure exactly what he spotted and how he spotted it - but said it was ok again after. I only mention this as a sticking brake caliper could be responsible for the judder, though it doesn't account for the overheating. Could still be 2 seperate issues, my head is wrecked...

Edited by kmaccsy
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A blocked radiator when it is warm will have cold spots in areas of the rad that feel colder to the touch - engine off obviously - don't want any lost limbs before crimbo.

 

I will post a link to a youtube video tomorrow of how to do basic checks on your fans, but in the meantime, make sure you fuses under the bonnet on top of the battery are all intact - check the ones inside also if you want to be double sure. Does your car have aircon fitted?

 

Because auto boxes work on a sort of wet multi clutch like a motor cycle, usually in pairs, any foreign matter- be that ether bits of broken clutch lining or parts of the internal one way clutch in the torque converter are really not going to improve things at all. Unlike a manual box, It really is important to do as much testing with pressure gauges at pre-set rpm points and accurate roadtesting to assess whether the fault is in the box, the valve body control unit or the converter. Any good transmission specialist worth his salt will do this as a matter of course, as some faults may not be obvious once the box is in bits.

 

I notice in one of your previous posts that you say you can make the vibration stop by lifting off and dropping a gear, what happens if you drop gear but don't lift?, do you still get vibration?.

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A blocked radiator when it is warm will have cold spots in areas of the rad that feel colder to the touch - engine off obviously - don't want any lost limbs before crimbo.

 

I will post a link to a youtube video tomorrow of how to do basic checks on your fans, but in the meantime, make sure you fuses under the bonnet on top of the battery are all intact - check the ones inside also if you want to be double sure. Does your car have aircon fitted?

 

Because auto boxes work on a sort of wet multi clutch like a motor cycle, usually in pairs, any foreign matter- be that ether bits of broken clutch lining or parts of the internal one way clutch in the torque converter are really not going to improve things at all. Unlike a manual box, It really is important to do as much testing with pressure gauges at pre-set rpm points and accurate roadtesting to assess whether the fault is in the box, the valve body control unit or the converter. Any good transmission specialist worth his salt will do this as a matter of course, as some faults may not be obvious once the box is in bits.

 

I notice in one of your previous posts that you say you can make the vibration stop by lifting off and dropping a gear, what happens if you drop gear but don't lift?, do you still get vibration?.

 

Disregard my previous post, think I've found the problem, radiator is completely cold after a 40 min drive, pipe on top by passenger side is very hot, pipe underneath on driver side is cold. Took it out for a run there after my last post, there's a steep hill about 30 seconds from my house. Engine was cold, took it up the hill at speeds between 60 - 80 kph, no judder but plenty of engine surging, over-revving by about 200 rpm then coming back to normal. Surging most noticeable when keeping the car at a steady 80kph with the gradient varying up the hill. Drove until the engine was warm, turned around, came back home and went up the exact same hill at the same speeds, lots of juddering and not as much surging. Juddering got bad enough to cause the engine temp needle to start climbing above 90. So the juddering happens when warm but NOT when cold, disregard what I said above. In a microcosm, this is what beens happening to me on longer journeys. When I came home I popped the bonnet and the radiator was completely cold. Expansion tank was very hot, coolant overflowed when I took off the lid. So I think this explains the overheat, the judder was occurring before the overheat so not fully sure if the 2 are related? Time for the rad and cooling system to be examined!

 

Will have a look at the fuses tomorrow, no aircon fitted in the car. When I change gear without lifting the vibration disappears and the engine revs away as expected. Still potentially something mechanical rather than fluid/hydraulic related? Thanks again for the help!

Edited by kmaccsy
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The fact that the vibration disappears tends to possibly point to a box fault, as the surging could be clutch slip in that particular gear that you are experiencing.

 

The cold rad, I would tend to be leaning towards a thermostat for that, I would use that opportunity to flush the rad with a hose pipe at the same time to clear any loose blockages. As I said earlier, you have a gearbox oil cooler that uses the cooling system water to cool the oil - see this pic http://workshop-manuals.com/skoda/octavia-mk1/power_transmission/automatic_gearbox_01m/automatic_gearbox_control_assembly_housing/disassembling_and_assembling_the_gearbox/removing_and_installing_atf_radiator_and_atf_filler_tube/  I f you have had cooling system problems, it is quite possible that the box may have cooked itself due to the cooling water it uses to cool its oil being so hot it no longer acts as a cooler, more as a cooker. At that point, once the box is cooked, unfortunately it does not heal itself when it cools again as some manual clutches may if they have got hot.

 

To put a slightly positive slant on this, a reasonably knowledgeable person really needs to road test the car, and rule the general rolling chassis - suspension,driveshafts, exhaust etc out as your vibration and narrow the diagnosis down to basically a simple question - box or not. it's a shame you are where you are as if you were closer I would offer to help with that if you wanted me to.

 

I hope you get to the bottom of this, but I think your simple cooling system problem may be the cause of the bigger problem.

 

Good luck

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The fact that the vibration disappears tends to possibly point to a box fault, as the surging could be clutch slip in that particular gear that you are experiencing.

 

The cold rad, I would tend to be leaning towards a thermostat for that, I would use that opportunity to flush the rad with a hose pipe at the same time to clear any loose blockages. As I said earlier, you have a gearbox oil cooler that uses the cooling system water to cool the oil - see this pic http://workshop-manuals.com/skoda/octavia-mk1/power_transmission/automatic_gearbox_01m/automatic_gearbox_control_assembly_housing/disassembling_and_assembling_the_gearbox/removing_and_installing_atf_radiator_and_atf_filler_tube/  I f you have had cooling system problems, it is quite possible that the box may have cooked itself due to the cooling water it uses to cool its oil being so hot it no longer acts as a cooler, more as a cooker. At that point, once the box is cooked, unfortunately it does not heal itself when it cools again as some manual clutches may if they have got hot.

 

To put a slightly positive slant on this, a reasonably knowledgeable person really needs to road test the car, and rule the general rolling chassis - suspension,driveshafts, exhaust etc out as your vibration and narrow the diagnosis down to basically a simple question - box or not. it's a shame you are where you are as if you were closer I would offer to help with that if you wanted me to.

 

I hope you get to the bottom of this, but I think your simple cooling system problem may be the cause of the bigger problem.

 

Good luck

 

Thanks for the offer, would definitely take you up on it if I were closer! As you said, just need an experienced mechanic to rule out the chassis. So if the judder disappears after the overheating issue is resolved but the surge remains then I can safely assume the gearbox is on its last legs? One observation, when the engine was warm the judder was occurring roughly around the same time as the surge was when the engine was cold. Maybe just symptoms of the suspected clutch slip at different temps?

 

Also a little video of the instrument panel taken on the run I mentioned going up the hill, juddering starts about 20 secs in. Not the most stable of vids but it gets the idea across! Hard to make out the engine temp needle but you can just about make out it starting to move off 90 at the end of the vid

 

Edited by kmaccsy
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I am only making an educated guess here, but probably the surge is one of the clutches actually struggling to keep control of the torque of the diesel engine, and the judder is it slipping-gripping-slipping and so generating a frequency of vibration that is getting past the engine mounts because the problem is getting reasonably severe. Does it vibrate when driving in reverse?, I know it is not something you would normally do,  but the clutches in the forward gears are also used in a different configuration in reverse.

 

I've watched the clip, but you can't really get a feel for the "anger" of the vibration, as the sound is a little difficult to hear accurately. As said, really needs a test drive with someone who knows the difference between a door and a window so to speak.

 

Just to give you a clue , this is what passes for both your clutch and gearbox on you car.http://workshop-manuals.com/skoda/octavia-mk1/power_transmission/automatic_gearbox_01m/automatic_gearbox_control_assembly_housing/disassembling_and_assembling_the_gearbox/summary_of_components_disassembling_and_assembling_planetary_gear/

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The youtube guide I was looking for has been taken down for some reason, but this is a guide for the climatronic version which I believe should be the same basic function.

.

 

A chap on here called rwbaldwin is very knowledgeable with this type of stuff, so I would send him a pm just to confirm this before you go ahead and do it.

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The youtube guide I was looking for has been taken down for some reason, but this is a guide for the climatronic version which I believe should be the same basic function.

.

 

A chap on here called rwbaldwin is very knowledgeable with this type of stuff, so I would send him a pm just to confirm this before you go ahead and do it.

 

Hi again, just a quick update. Had my mechanic replace the thermostat yesterday morning and its been perfect since, took the car for a spin but as its so cold it was hard to get the thermostat to open. Revved the engine while it was in park and within a few minutes the radiator was getting warm, job done! Just have to have a look at the torque converter issue, it may not be 'economically viable' to get it replaced or reconditioned so am contemplating just driving the car until it fails or I get a new car, whichever happens first! Thanks again for your help, have to say I've learned a lot about automatic gearboxes over the last few days :D

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You may find the gearbox may settle down over the next few weeks as the main cooling system can keep the transmission oil cooler now as it is not trying to boil all the time.

 

As the transmission settles it is either going to gently wear the burnt bits off the clutch plates and it will settle or it will carry on juddering till it eventually fails. As you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by the "wait and see" approach. I must stress that the gearbox may only stabilise, it is highly unlikely to fully wear itself back to a total non judder condition, but it is coming up to Christmas .........................you never know.

 

Glad to hear you are getting on top of some of your troubles, if we don't speak again have a good Christmas.

 

Phil.

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Hello,

I know I'm only new on here but I would also suggest that you check what state the water pump impeller is like on the car.

I've got the ALH engine in mine and the temp never moves above 90oC when driving ever

A couple months ago I'd been driving about an hour and the temp gauge started creeping up a bit then it settled back to normal but the longer I drove it started going up again to about 110oC

Pulled over and top hose was cold and header tank roasting.

I suspected it was thermostat that failed but at side of road wasn't going drain it

Got recovered home and next day pulled off thermostat and checked it out but it was working ok in the old pot of water test

Put finger into block to clean out bit dirt that got in and hit the impeller and found it turned when it shouldn't

It's a plastic impeller on lot of waterpumps and it comes free over time from the pump shaft and causes no circulation.

It's a common VW fault and one that can be intermittent at first as the bonding that glues it to shaft slowy fails.

Have you had your timing belt done recently on the car?

I changed full belt kit plus got a pump with metal impeller and so far cars been running great as if nothing happened.

Also is the black plastic coolant housing above the bell housing on side of block that various pipes like Bottom rad hose and heater matrix pipes in good condition?

I've replaced this on mine as it had distorted with age over years and had tiny leak onto box

This to is common VW fault as had change this on two my golfs used to have as they distort with all the heat up / cool down engine do and gasket weeps plus they can fracture around the metal inserts that stop the fitting bolts squashing it as nip them up

As I say I'm only new on here but that's two things I've found on my octy that had be replaced

.

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