Cold Starting Issues - Running out of ideas!

[BlueVRSTom]

Right where to begin,

Basically my Octavia vRS 2.0tdi 2007 PD170 has had problems starting over the last 3-4 months.

I will turn ignition on and wait for glow plug light to go out I will then turn the engine on and it takes a good 6-10 secs ( cranking ) until the car actually fires up.

Once it fires up it idles and runs fine. It's not down to temperature but down to how long the car is left without being started.

So if I left my car for 6hrs and tried starting it again it would have the same struggle although if I started it again after 20mins it would be fine.

I have had:

New battery

New glow plugs

Injector seals replaced ( expensive )

Fuel filter ( 7k ago )

I have now spent a small fortune on the above and no success. Has anyone got any other ideas or suggestions?

Just want it sorting without throwing any more money away.

[RichVRS777]

Battery connections corroded?!

[gregoir]

Does the engine turn over at the same speed after 6 hours  i.e. enthusiastically as it does after 20 minutes? If not then the battery is not holding its charge or is faulty. Do any other sensible checks as above.

A different garage might be in order. Sounds like they may have had a very merry Christmas at your expense.

[freelanderman]

You don't say what the milage is on the engine, before I spent any more money I would do a though diagnostic chelk on the engine, ie ia the fuel delivery flow and pressures up to spec. Is engine compression on all 4 cylinders ok,are the glow plugs working correctly, is the starter motor spiiniing the engine over fast enough.

[BlueVRSTom]

Thanks so far.

I will check the above howvever I do highly doubt worn battery terminals would be the cause although I do appreciate your input and shall look at it.

Yeah the engine is the same although it takes a longer time to crank after 6hrs then it does after a 20min drive turn off then turn on again.

The above repairs were done at different garages throughout the 3/4 months.

The car is on 130,000 miles and thank you for that last comment, I will be onto a garage and getting that health check put in motion!

[Guest]

It sounds like a fuel issue.

Possible leak in fuel system prior to tandem pump allowing air in and allowing fuel to drain back to filter/tank.

The longer the time since last started the more the fuel will have drained back the pipework and the longer you will have to crank the engine to pump the fuel back through.

Just a thought and one to mention to mechanic.

[BlueVRSTom]

Deffo a fuel issue! It's what the mechanic said too.

The reason the injector seals were replaced was it were thought that the seals were allowing the fuel to run back to the fuel tank so I think we're on the right tracks ( including your post )

Just more investigating I guess.

Quick one on my mind is do these cars have a water part attached to the fuel filter that has to be emptied?

[Guest]

Come to think of it I think I read that it wasn't unheard of for a seal to go on the tandem pump allowing fuel into the engine oil, causing starting issues and the engine oil level to build up.

Worth a check.

Do you mean a water drain on the filter housing?

By design there should be, at the bottom, fuel floats on water.

I wouldn't think changing the injector seals was warranted unless the engine oil smelled of diesel and the level was rising...

It could be a temperature sensor issue, again trawling through the posts here I'm confident I read that a simple sensor was responsible for cold starting issues.

Do your research and confront your mechanic, or go to another for a different opinion.

Edited 6 January, 2015 by MicMac

[freelanderman]

A fuel pressure test on the tandem pump will tell if you have any leak back or internal seal failure..

[Gti Jazz Blue]

I take it that the lift pump primes OK when you open the drivers door ?

[IngusSeflers]

There is nothing to do with battery. I presume Fuel delivery pressure is too low and/or air in fuel system. 

Did you bleed your fuel system after filter replace?

You need to watch Live Data  while cranking...check fuel pressure and injection volume.

[BlueVRSTom]

Again a massive thank you to everyone who has commented.

You have gave me more ideas/knowledge than I could have ever found on Google.

I will go armed with all these options to the garage and I now feel confident that I'll get to the bottom of this.

My fuel filter could be full of water at the better as I don't think it has been changed.

I don't know if my car primes the pump when I open my door.

No I haven't bled my fuel system after replaced.

I shall give this updated with the outcome.

[silver1011]

The increasing numbers of these threads are concerning.

Been there got the t-shirt. I'm afraid my car had several more thousands of pounds spent on it, even Skoda Technical Support in the Czech Republic couldn't sort it.

The issue is likely related to the VOSA injector recall which applies to all VAG PD170 engines. Far too many botched injector changes at Skoda main dealers. Skoda UK know but don't really care.

See here for further links to the many, many other people who also suffer from this. I've yet to find one who's managed to get to the bottom of it.

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/index.php?/topic/338651-Cold-start

Good luck!

Edited 8 January, 2015 by silver1011

[BlueVRSTom]

Quick video of my car to just show my exact problem.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FxUBN_ej06c

[silver1011]

That is some serious cranking. I posted some video's of mine which are buried in one of the links in one of the threads linked earlier.

Yours is cranking longer than mine ever did.

[BlueVRSTom]

Visited a new garage today and explained everything. They ran a full diagnostic check.

The only thing that came back was my engine coolant sensor was reading 15c lower than the actual temp. But nothing else came back.

The garage want it over night and to test it in the morning so they can see and diagnose the cranking themselves.

It is getting dropped off Thursday night, further info to follow...

[IngusSeflers]

Sorry, I have one silly question; Do you have Remap done on your car or any other mods on your engine?

[BlueVRSTom]

Remap yes, Shark Stage 1. ( had it on for ages )

Mods - dpf delete - EGR delete - Egr cooler delete.

[IngusSeflers]

Remap yes, Shark Stage 1. ( had it on for ages )

Mods - dpf delete - EGR delete - Egr cooler delete.

OMG! Diesel racing car?  

Ok,change first coolant T° sensor and than see what happens! 

There is possibility of wrong injection because of Remaping.

[BlueVRSTom]

Diesel racing car? Oh yes! ( well..in my head anyway )

Okay mate I'll mention it to garage.

The remap is not to blame -point blank. Shark are the best in the game and they know what they are doing. Plus it's been mapped for a long time.

[IngusSeflers]

Never mind, I have strange sense of humor!

I'm verrrry skeptical to Remapping all other Mods. 

You say that car is mapped for a long time... You never thought about that can be a reason of all troubles with car?  No matter how good or bad are specialists in remapping, they interfered with the normal cycle of the machine and make it work in her circumstances not provided from the manufacturer. 

And what about emissions after DPF and EGR deleting? You don't care environment  and healthy future of you children's? 

[BlueVRSTom]

I'm not here to get into a big debate on here, especially when I'm just trying to get to the root cause of my problem.

To have my car mapped is a personal choice and I know of a lot of people who also have remapped vehicles and a lot of people who recommend it.

All the people I've spoke to have had there cars mapped for years and have covered many miles without any problems.

As for the DPF delete - my dpf was full and paying £1000 just for the replacement part was crazy and it was much cheaper to delete plus they were never really meant for the PD engines and have caused various problems.

With the EGR delete it stops poor running issues, a blocked EGR valve and a dirty inlet manifold. Why would I want to feed dirty exhaust emissions back into my engine?

By having a EGR delete we are talking about ' minimal ' NOx increase in emissions.

In all seriousness though if the above concerns you so much then I hope your against petrol cars that have been de-catted as well and I hope you drive an electric/hybrid vehicle or cycle because the increase in my vehicles emissions by having a dpf/EGR delete is tiny compared to the amount it produces anyway.

However I am only 21 and maybe I just don't fully understand the whole environment worry but it's going to take a lot more than just my car to pro long the effects of destroying the ozone layer...that's if Ebola doesn't kill us first!!!

[IngusSeflers]

To have my car mapped is a personal choice and I know of a lot of people who also have remapped vehicles and a lot of people who recommend it.

- I respect your choice but, I can get a lot of people who will NOT recommend you that because of many reasons

Make some simple list of pluses and minuses of remapped engine in long term use.

 

All the people I've spoke to have had there cars mapped for years and have covered many miles without any problems.

-What else they can say? I made big mistake and now my DPF is blocked and EGR full of carbon!?

 

As for the DPF delete - my dpf was full and paying £1000 just for the replacement part was crazy and it was much cheaper to delete plus they were never really meant for the PD engines and have caused various problems.

-First of all you need to find out why DPF was full, it was huge mileage on the clock or bad/irregular servicing? Maybe fuel quality or quantity?

 

With the EGR delete it stops poor running issues, a blocked EGR valve and a dirty inlet manifold. Why would I want to feed dirty exhaust emissions back into my engine?

-Why would your neighbors and other people breathe with dirty emissions from your engine? ( I answer with question)

 

And now Off topic but in case:

Removing your car's diesel particulate filter (DPF) might be tempting, because the damage caused by a clogged DPF can result in four-figure repair bills. An internet search reveals numerous companies advertising DPF removal services, but as well as being bad for the environment this is also illegal, and the Government has moved to tighten up the regulations concerning such practices.

In October 2013 Robert Goodwill, roads minister, announced that garages and testing stations will be required check for a DPF as part of the MoT test from February 2014. The vehicle will automatically fail test if the filter had been fitted as standard but is no longer present.

P.S. Germany has more steps ahead and take an active fight against DPF 'removers'. TUV and DEKRA ( local MOT) read OBD and live data from DPF etc.

[BlueVRSTom]

I'm happy to start a separate thread on here about ' remaps, DPFs and EGRs ' but I really would like to keep this thread about my starting problems.

I shall say you've won this battle, but the war ( debate ) is not over.

I do appreciate your concerns over all these issues.

However in reality now, what am I supposed to do - fit a dpf, re fit EGR and have the map taken off?

Because unfortunately that is a unrealistic measure.

[Gti Jazz Blue]

Temp Sensor and I'd check the lift pump as I said earlier. Does the glowplug light come on and go off OK. Will be instant in the summer or if the car is warm but should stay on for a delay when the engine coolant is cold and ambient is cold.

 

Have you had a VCDS session on the car to check sensor output - crank speed etc.