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Cave oil consumption new fix updated two days ago by vag


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There are bad engines, VW Built Them, and they know what was wrong. They knew 3 years ago what was wrong.

They wish the problem would go away, and it would have if they had talked to Owners, said 'Houston we have a problem, come on down and we will sort it out.'

But they never did.

There speaks one of the world's few surviving brain donors.

 

You suggest that VW know there were problems with the CAVE engine, have known for three years what was wrong but should seek the assistance of owners in resolving the problem.

 

Remind me, how long ago did VW roll out the CTHE engine? Was it somewhere between two and three years ago?

 

I have no idea what your background is but it is clearly not in any commercial sector . . . unless you are a frustrated ambulance chaser ;)

 

Incidentally, can you think of any possible reason why Skoda might not be planning to introduce a Mk. III Fabis vRS?

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They can get the assistance of Owners and Reducing the Damage that was done by contacting Owners,

and monitoring Oil Use, 

being sure the ECU update was done, & instead of trying to hide the issues and the problems that could result.

 

You need to go find out the real story, 

and keeping slagging me will do no good, water off a ducks back,  where as some of us have managed to get results from 

Skoda for others

................

 

VWG are Producing and taking orders for Face Lift Polo GTI & Audi A1 with 1.8 TSI. and still selling Seat 1.4 TSI,

so no, i have no idea why they are not Producing a new vRS Fabia with the 1.8TSI, 

and they might,  But then in the UK for Skoda vRS outsold the Polo & the A1, and the Seat Ibiza, not big numbers but by 100% with the VW.

& since they are going Rallying a New Fabia Shell as the R5 in 2015.

So they want the Motorsport Connection.

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PS 

Late 2012-2014,  

VW First Registered around 450 Polo GTI 1.4 TSI 132 kw CTHE in the UK.

& it was 1,200 Fabia vRS First Registered in the UK with CTHE engines.

 

Not sold them to customers new necessarily, but they did First Registered them.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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There speaks one of the world's few surviving brain donors.

You suggest that VW know there were problems with the CAVE engine, have known for three years what was wrong but should seek the assistance of owners in resolving the problem.

Remind me, how long ago did VW roll out the CTHE engine? Was it somewhere between two and three years ago?

I have no idea what your background is but it is clearly not in any commercial sector . . . unless you are a frustrated ambulance chaser ;)

Incidentally, can you think of any possible reason why Skoda might not be planning to introduce a Mk. III Fabis vRS?

why are you even on this forum?? do you even own a skoda all you do is comment on people threads slagging them off or calling people out atleast George tries to help people out because we all know from first hand experience how skoda try and fob you off to avoid costly bills ,
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From  http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au

 

mongo 12-12-2014, 07:22 PM

<< brief history :



purchased Fabia RS in January 2014. It was a new but superseded model built in April 2012. It has a CAV… engine.


Essential, the same engine as in the Polo GTI i.e twin charged 1.4l petrol 132KW, 250NM



first oil test - over 1.5l/1000

rebreather pipe fitted

second oil test - over 1.8//1000

squirters suggested - have not agreed to this being done.



confirmed in writing on the manufacturer’s behalf that, effectively, the substitute quarters will REDUCE the oil being applied under the pistons. This is in an attempt to get the pistons to operate at a HOTTER temperature.



This seems logical to Mongo but not necessarily a good thing. The hotter piston will expand a little more than previously thus not permitting as much oil to get past the piston (and presumably, the piston rings) into the combustion chamber. Thus , potentially reducing the oil consumption. HOWEVER, the engine was designed with the original oil squirter which has a larger oil and cooling capacity. The engine was designed to run at the temperature that the original oil squirter maintained i.e a LOWER temperature.



It is all very well to say this may reduce some of the oil consumption but has anyone seriously though to ask the question about how much alternative damage this may cause by having an original component (the piston and the rings) run at temperatures they were never designed to run at ??? This has not been explained at all.



Do we really want one thing fixed at the cost of damaging another/others things.



It is not enough to say, well, its under warranty and they will have to fix it again. However, some of this potential damage may not become evident until you are well out of warranty and you may not be able to prove that the damage arises from the pistons being made to run hotter than intended. What then ??



Have read and need to verify, that where the substitute squirters are used, the engines computer is also adjusted. However, at this stage, no one has been willing to say in what regard and to achieve what purpose. Until that has been satisfactorily explained and confirmed, one can not help but be very cautious that the computer adjustment does not result in an increase in fuel use or loss of power or change in the power band characteristics of the car in a way that you are no longer happy with.



In some cases, the earlier method of fix has involved changing the pistons and rings etc instead of the oil squirters. Now , it seems , the oil squirters have become the current way to try to fix the oil consumption. Have heard that the earlier method often involved a measurable rise in petrol consumption. This is also logical but not a good thing and maybe , not what you bought. The new pistons were presumable larger than the originals causing more friction with the cylinder walls thus stoping some of the oil but using more petrol.



In cases where engines have been burning excessive amounts of oil that they were never designed to, one should also check for damage to :


  • Catalytic converter and other components of the exhaust system; and

the engine’s head and spark plugs



These are things which appear to be routinely side stepped in any discussion with the manufacturer.



Not sure about VW per se but Skoda appear to be denying that excess oil consumption is not an uncommon problem and that they do not have a “procedure” for such a problem. Yet, having spoken to several detailers service sections, they have all confirmed and been able to rattle off the exact sequential procedure that the manufacturer insists upon (when there is a case of oil consumption) as knowingly as rattling off the names of their own families ! Additionally, several of them have confirmed that they have carried out this procedure in quite a number of cases as well as the associated “repair”.



As you can tell, Mongo is not thrilled with his experience and nobody should be made to go through this. Faulty engines should just be replaced with non-faulty ones from day one or your money back.



Hope some of the information answers a number of questions asked on this thread.
>>

 

What do you think about that?

 

Edited by le_bron
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Thanks for posting, Wunderbar

 

VORSPRUNG DURCH TECHNIK.  

Or Translated to Scots and as Robert the Bruce said

'If at first you do not succeed Try, Try & Try again!'  

(& if you are German do not tell the Plebs that pay to buy your products what you are actually up to.)

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Thanks for posting, Wunderbar

 

VORSPRUNG DURCH TECHNIK.  

Or Translated to Scots and as Robert the Bruce said

'If at first you do not succeed Try, Try & Try again!'  

(& if you are German do not tell the Plebs that pay to buy your products what you are actually up to.)

I am Greek and I didn't understand a word!

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That OK, nobody understands me, and even less VW.

 

But for vxh26 when he comes along.

Basically VW built 1.4 TSI Twinchargers with 160-170 ps & they were so, so, those with 150ps were OK.

Then VW Remapped to 180-185ps with much the Same Engine Block, but different Engine Management.

 

They are designed to cope with 150ps easily,

But they are slow to get the oil & Engine Components to Operating Temperature, and they are Running Rich on start up.

This Cold Oil, Cold Metal & Rich Fuel Mixture causes Bore Wash.

Oil is then burning with the Fuel on short trips and where the Engine is not up to Normal Operating Temperature.

There are other issues, but that is the basics and the first 10 miles of a Trip.

 

So Basically VW Revised the Engines Internals & different Pistons, Rings, Valve Seats etc. & a Different Engine Management, 

to Control Fueling,  ie CTHE.

But they still never got it right, so they Try, Try & Try Again.   ECU Updates etc.

(Then just give up producing the Engines in 132-136 kw output.)

They never got the Intake  Manifolds changed to stop one of the serious reasons for failures, ie one Spark Plug being Cooked,

*But now we have available ACT / COD engines, Turbo Only, and often the Car only needs 2 cylinders, and the 150ps output is good when 

running on 4 Cylinders.*

 

http://revotechnik.com/support/technical/14tsi-twincharger-engine-issues

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But if the problem of the oil consumption is the increased power, why the stage 1 and 2 scirocco and golf 1.4 tsi that running @220-240 hp do not consume oil? Also do you agree with the opinion of mongo, that the new oil squirters will reduce the oil being applied to pistons and make them run hotter and cause damage?

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I don't think what George suggests is that the cause of the oil consumption is merely the high power, it is a bit more complicated and is a result of several factors. As you say, there are 1.4s that run well above 180 bhp without oil consumption issues while at the same time almost all oil burners we've read about where completely stock. So power alone can't be the cause. As I see it, increased power will only highlight an already existing problem, not create it in the first place.

 

Anyway, it's been 4 years and still the situation is as unclear as it was back in 2010. There never was an official VW/Skoda statement on the matter, no clear explanations were ever provided, now new fixes are being suggested that seem to reduce oil consumption but people start wondering whether they're causing alternative damage? I get all the points Mongo makes in his post but I would think it may be too late to do anything about it. When you're stuck with a product that's not performing the way you want and there's no way to have it repaired/returned maybe you should just sell up and move on. At least I know I would have done so if I happened to have a thirsty one in my possession. I would take piece of mind over money loss every day. Eventually we are all selling up anyway for one reason or the other.

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The Problem is not the Increased Power,

but how VW Increased the Power, ie Engine Management.  ie MAP, 

How they get the car started & idling and Heating up for the C02 /km Emissions, and running rich, 

and later Leaner, etc etc.

They cocked that up, they got Bore Wash.

Then they Cocked up Quality Control, or Engine Components, Quality, Quality Control, Injectors, Coil Packs, Spark Plugs etc.

They Cocked up big style, then they tried having failing engines fitted with different Rings & Pistons.

Then the had a change of tack, Produce the CTHE, change the Engine Management.

Same Block, Same Manifolds, just little and important changes.

http://revotechnik.com/support/technical/14tsi-twincharger-engine-issues

This warning includes the VW Golf / Sirocco / Beetle / Polo / Fabia / Ibiza / A1

 

 

We are not all selling up because of anything,

some have Keepers and intend seeing how long they run & with out even Grannying

them, just Service & Maintaining correctly, and being sure of Fluids, Filters, Maps and act quickly to symptoms of not running efficiently.

 

&

yes there are cars with 1.4 TSI Turbo,  or Super Charged & Turbo (Dual Charged.)that run more power, and the more Power comes in the main with a New Map, not using OEM Spark Plugs, maybe not Castrol Edge / Quantum, & other modifications.

There are quite a few of them said enough with the Rings & Pistons as fitted by VW 2009-2012

 

Anyway,

the CAVE / CAD was discontinued for New Car fitment before 2013,

and only were used 2013-2015 for Replacement Engines, as Standard or possibly Upgraded Parts Factory Fitted,

Because Skoda say that they supply 'Complete Units;  & also 'Not Short Units'.

 

So i take it now every 'Replacement CAVE' being fitted late 2014/2015, By SKODA, VW, AUDI & SEAT has the Latest Internal Components, Squirters, Breather Pipes / Valves. Spark Plugs and Sofrware. (MAP)

Edited by goneoffSKi
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I don't think what George suggests is that the cause of the oil consumption is merely the high power, it is a bit more complicated and is a result of several factors. As you say, there are 1.4s that run well above 180 bhp without oil consumption issues while at the same time almost all oil burners we've read about where completely stock. So power alone can't be the cause. As I see it, increased power will only highlight an already existing problem, not create it in the first place.

 

Anyway, it's been 4 years and still the situation is as unclear as it was back in 2010. There never was an official VW/Skoda statement on the matter, no clear explanations were ever provided, now new fixes are being suggested that seem to reduce oil consumption but people start wondering whether they're causing alternative damage? I get all the points Mongo makes in his post but I would think it may be too late to do anything about it. When you're stuck with a product that's not performing the way you want and there's no way to have it repaired/returned maybe you should just sell up and move on. At least I know I would have done so if I happened to have a thirsty one in my possession. I would take piece of mind over money loss every day. Eventually we are all selling up anyway for one reason or the other.

Thank you and @goneoffSKi for your replies. I understand clearly what you say. BUT the oil squirters seems that solve the oil consumption problem. I have read that at least 10 gti/cupra/vrs owners after squirters change they solved their problem.

So my question is, when I go to dealer do I have to try get my squirters changed or this will cause damage to my pistons if they run hotter? My engine burns about 400-450 ml /1000km. My warranty ends the last day of february.

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I dont believe the issue is anything to do with bore wash and clearly neither do VW since none of the fixes have anything to do with altering the cold running map. The engine warms up quickly and comes off cold running map quite quickly returning to normal stoichmetric ratios

 

You can tell if you are suffering bore wash as the engine oil smells of fuel.

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Really, none of them, and who told you that?   Ones that are running as designed, are not Oil Users Obviously.

 

The Coolant gets to near 90*oC quickly as you know from running one,

the Oil certainly does not, and when exactly does the Twincharger stop running rich?

 

PS

Maybe go back and read the Posts on the petrol Smelling in the Oil in some cars /engines, 

and the Skoda Assist / RAC operator trying the Lighter Test.

Jabozuma is a CTHE owner that had the Lighter test done i seem to remember.

 

The Fuel is being Burned and the Oil,

and that is why the Oil Level does not get higher it just goes lower in the Oil Users,

and the Oil does not go out the exhaust or runs onto the ground from some leak.

You get the Sooted up Exhaust, but the Oil Loss is nicely burned up before it gets to or leaves the CAT.

Before ever getting to the Resonator.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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If it's some cars it's not the map is it ?

You can see the map and a lambda sensor shows when the car comes off the rich map

Cold running maps are not linked to oil temperature !

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So why are some so wrong,  what is it that you feel was wrong that took VW 4 years or more to find out?

and why did VW not resolve the issues so much sooner,

& is the Issue now all resolved, No more Oil Using CAVE or CTHE Engines.

 

& It is not the same car.  or the same engines, or the same MAP.

Just take the Skoda Twincharger,

lets forget the Seat Ibiza from 2009. Polo GTI 2010, A1 2011, CAVE /CAD /CTHE

 

So June 2010 CAVE, to September 2012 CAVE. 1,800 sold in the UK.

First ones might have & some did some issues, Press Media cars / Demonstrators, Oil Burners, Rebuilt with New Rings, Pistons & Bearings.

Then sometime later, Short Engines were being fitted under Warranty, later still New Units with Heads.

5 ECU updates covering 2009-2012.

 

Then we have the CTHE in the Skoda/ VW 2012.

then in the Seat Ibiza 2013 Face Lift, and Early CTHE with the Latest ECU still using Oil.

1,200 CTHE engines in Skodas 2012-2015

 

CAVE Engines replaced have since failed,

& there are CAVE Plus, and ECU updates.

 

So not one car, or one engine  and not the Same Engine Management (MAP)

or the same components in all the 3,000 engines of 2 types.

 

So Volkswagen will have the answer now, and can tell the owners what the answer is.

& Drivers can try different cars 2010, 2011, 2012,CAVE then CTHE 2012, 2013, 2014 and see who they are not all one car,

or in some cases, nothing like each other from one to another.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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Bore wash is a symptom not a cause

these engines are highly complex and highly stressed , there is no fundamental cause since not all engines have issues

If a new oil squirter is deemed to help than that suggests that the piston is getting too hot , this is unlikely to happen when the car is on cold running ie rich map

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If it is deemed, then VW can explain that to owners with cars in warranty, going out of warranty and already out of warranty.

 

Accept that it was a Design or Manufacturing fault, and this is the solution to some of the engines they Manufactured issues.

 

Problem being the Last Cars sold new in the UK with these engines was over 2 years ago.

So VW have gone through Breather & Breather Valve Mods & ECU updates only where owners complained,

& a Newer Updated Breather Mod, and now Revised Squirters.

 

Communications seems to be a VWG problem.

Sorry seems to be the hardest word.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/333042-think-dresden-mid-february-1945-vw-australia-dsg-recall

Edited by goneoffSKi
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BUT the oil squirters seems that solve the oil consumption problem. I have read that at least 10 gti/cupra/vrs owners after squirters change they solved their problem.

 

So my question is, when I go to dealer do I have to try get my squirters changed or this will cause damage to my pistons if they run hotter? My engine burns about 400-450 ml /1000km. My warranty ends the last day of february.

Any answer to that?

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The thing is that many Oil Users are not Oil Users on Long Runs, Hot and Sporting Runs, warm Weather, Track Use etc.

 

They are Oil Users while Commuting and being Family Transport on Short to slightly longer runs.

Cars that are thrashed might never be a Oil User.

 

Cars that are driven like by Miss Daisy often were and are.

If you have an Oil User and the Official Oil Consumption Test shows 0.33 Litres for 1000 km (621 miles)

Without doing anything unusual, Sealed Filler & Dip stick, it is easy to cover 1000 km in a few weeks of short journeys and the car never 

getting up to Normal Operating Temperature where it may drink lots of oil.

 

RE 

'What Remedy or Attempted Remedy is offered,'

You need to see if in the Country the Warranty is in,

If the Attempt is made while the Warranty is valid, and the Remedy is a failure, are Skoda accepting 

until the matter is properly resolved they need to extend the Warranty & take charge of Paying the Costs.

Take legal Advice in the Country the Warranty is in.

 

If the Fix is fixing thing long term. then sorted surely.

If not a Long Term Fix and just delaying the same as Breather Mods did, then not sorted.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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The thing is that many Oil Users are not Oil Users on Long Runs, Hot and Sporting Runs, warm Weather, Track Use etc.

 

They are Oil Users while Commuting and being Family Transport on Short to slightly longer runs.

Cars that are thrashed might never be a Oil User.

 

Nail on head there, engines run leanest during cruise, the leaner the mix the hotter the burn 

 

Mind you some of the engine failures have been down to misuse , I can think of at least one car equipped with a tuning box running dangerously lean AFR's that failed , no boosted engine likes to run lean

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The Failure rate is greater than 20%, in the 1,800 UK vRS.

 

Some have been Tuned, Neglected, abused.

But then some of the First cars released 2010 & since & Dealership Demonstrators have been ones that failed in a few thousand miles.

That might be the 95 ron petrol and lack of oil from confused Oil Dipping and over filling.

 

Valve Failure, Spark Plug Failure, Piston Ring Failure, Holed Pistons.

 

Such few cars / engines and such a failure rate among a cross section, 

and replaced engines failing,  rather odd when not all drivers are total muppets.

Owners that have had more than one Twincharger and use and abuse and have no issues.  Such is Life.

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