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What is needed for a leon cupra 6 speed gearbox swap on to an octy vrs


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Hi guys im currently breaking a leon cupra 52 plate 1.8t and im thinking about doing the 6 speed conversion on my octy vrs 51.. what would i need to change over to do the conversion obviously the clutch will be different and gear linkages.. would i need to switch the drive shafts over?

 

also what are the benefits of fitting the 6 speed.. ive noticed when the leon was on the road it would not hold in gear as long as the 5 speed on my octy.. is this good or bad..? go ahead with the conversion or give it a miss?

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you don't need to change the selector cables, but you will need to change the following

 

Flywheel

Clutch

Pressure plate

Csc

Shafts

hydraulic pipe from the back of the clutch pedal

Starter and that should be it

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Looks like the first part has been answered, in ref to the second part I suppose it depends on your driving style to an extent. As you've driven the 6 speed you can probably answer your own question. I must admit I'm not a big fan of 6 speed having driven a couple as I'm more of a cruiser (for want of a better word) than a charger and prefer longer, higher ratios. This probably favours economy and gives the family a more comfortable ride. Take me back 15 years and I'd be more than willing to try a 6 speed box on the car I own. With 6 speed you'll obviously be changing gear more frequently, both up and down, and I think I'm just a bit too old and lazy for it now, probably a more involving drive, but not my cup of tea. Each to their own though init.

Edited by YellowCar
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you don't need to change the selector cables, but you will need to change the following

 

Flywheel

Clutch

Pressure plate

Csc

Shafts

hydraulic pipe from the back of the clutch pedal

Starter and that should be it

hydraulic pipe? do you mean from the master cylinder because ive sold the master and i think the pipes abit chewed.. :sweat:

 

Looks like the first part has been answered, in ref to the second part I suppose it depends on your driving style to an extent. As you've driven the 6 speed you can probably answer your own question. I must admit I'm not a big fan of 6 speed having driven a couple as I'm more of a cruiser (for want of a better word) than a charger and prefer longer, higher ratios. This probably favours economy and gives the family a more comfortable ride. Take me back 15 years and I'd be more than willing to try a 6 speed box on the car I own. With 6 speed you'll obviously be changing gear more frequently, both up and down, and I think I'm just a bit too old and lazy for it now, probably a more involving drive, but not my cup of tea. Each to their own though init.

yeah your right, not sure if i want to be changing through gears more, but my current 5 speed makes a lot of clattering noise it should be making when swtiching between 1st and 2nd... als get a wee bit of slipping when pushing it hard up hills

and wouldnt the 6 speed give better economy.. makes no diff to me (im on LPG :p  :p  :p ) but just out of curiosity..

Edited by Haych123
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hydraulic pipe? do you mean from the master cylinder because ive sold the master and i think the pipes abit chewed.. :sweat:

yeah your right, not sure if i want to be changing through gears more, but my current 5 speed makes a lot of clattering noise it should be making when swtiching between 1st and 2nd... als get a wee bit of slipping when pushing it hard up hills

and wouldnt the 6 speed give better economy.. makes no diff to me (im on LPG :p :p :p ) but just out of curiosity..

The lesser economy of a 6 speed will more than likely come from the incentive to drive more enthusiastically and from more gear changes. The 6 speeds I drove were naturally aspirated multi valves which are probably better suited to shorter boxes because of how they deliver power and where the torque is. Shorter ratios when under a heavy foot will keep you higher in the rev range, which is where the torque of our cars fades with our turbos. Obviously less so with a linear map but even so. Have you had it mapped? Slipping is a clutch issue, and I guess because it's looking like you feel you may need a new box you're considering an upgrade/change? Good time to try something different but it could be a hit cost if you decide you don't like it in the VRS after all...

Oh and the clattering may also be a clutch issue, thrust bearing perhaps? I'd be sure to get the systems health checked and issues properly diagnosed before going for a major change

Edited by YellowCar
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The lesser economy of a 6 speed will more than likely come from the incentive to drive more enthusiastically and from more gear changes. The 6 speeds I drove were naturally aspirated multi valves which are probably better suited to shorter boxes because of how they deliver power and where the torque is. Shorter ratios when under a heavy foot will keep you higher in the rev range, which is where the torque of our cars fades with our turbos. Obviously less so with a linear map but even so. Have you had it mapped? Slipping is a clutch issue, and I guess because it's looking like you feel you may need a new box you're considering an upgrade/change? Good time to try something different but it could be a hit cost if you decide you don't like it in the VRS after all...

Oh and the clattering may also be a clutch issue, thrust bearing perhaps? I'd be sure to get the systems health checked and issues properly diagnosed before going for a major change

well now im having a 2nd think, i would have thought the 6 speed makes it quicker.. its aparently mapped but i will be getting a stage 2 soon once ive got all my mods together and on it. its because ive got a good cond box sitting with pretty much all the bits id need for a swap so thats what temped me and obviously the issues with mine at the min.. and sometimes when i press the clutch the revs drop as they should some times they just stay steady and drop after a sec or 2

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Yeah in gear it should pick up quicker with the shorter ratio, which is traded off by an extra gear change I guess. If you're going for a map after it then they can build the map around the box to make the most of the power delivery, so don't chuck the idea yet. I didn't mean to wee on your bonfire was just giving both sides and checking your reasons for the change. It does sound like you have a couple of things that need checking out though.

As I said earlier it depends a lot on driving style, if you like to nip around a bit more then a 6 speed is more suited.

Edited by YellowCar
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I've had this conversion done and it's one of the best mods I've had done,pick up in any gear is so much better and stick it in sixth and fuel economy is noticeably better too,and in all honesty you don't notice/mind the extra gear changes as the shift is so nice compared to the 5 speed,don't get me wrong I loved my 5 speed and if it hadn't munched third gear I would still have it,but as my box was dead I thought now was a good time to try a six speed out,the only issue I have is it really needs a LSD as it spins it's wheel very easy now

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I've had this conversion done and it's one of the best mods I've had done,pick up in any gear is so much better and stick it in sixth and fuel economy is noticeably better too,and in all honesty you don't notice/mind the extra gear changes as the shift is so nice compared to the 5 speed,don't get me wrong I loved my 5 speed and if it hadn't munched third gear I would still have it,but as my box was dead I thought now was a good time to try a six speed out,the only issue I have is it really needs a LSD as it spins it's wheel very easy now

Can't say much fairer than that. I still think 5 speed suits me better but if it suits your style sounds like a good mod.

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.. naturally aspirated multi valves which are probably better suited to shorter boxes because of how they deliver power and where the torque is.

 

Shorter ratios when under a heavy foot will keep you higher in the rev range, which is where the torque of our cars fades with our turbos.

 

 

imhe this is what it boils down to with gear ratios

 

You want ratios that suit the power delivery of the engine

 

Short ratios get you to higher rpm quickly, but if your engine produces power from a low rpm short ratios are a total pain in the arse

Forcing you to change gear before the engine needs too

 

I would engine long ratios on a high boost threshold turbo setup, or normally aspirated engine could be equally annoying

 

I found the short ratio box an arse with my old engine & turbo setup, but the long ratio diesel box where perfectly matched

 

Worth bearing in mind the 6spd boxes are some 20-30kg heavier than the 5spd boxes

 

With LSD in the equation,  more gear changes equals less time under traction and the increased chance of loosing traction (due to changing gear during diff operation)

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imhe this is what it boils down to with gear ratios

 

You want ratios that suit the power delivery of the engine

 

Short ratios get you to higher rpm quickly, but if your engine produces power from a low rpm short ratios are a total pain in the arse

Forcing you to change gear before the engine needs too

 

I would engine long ratios on a high boost threshold turbo setup, or normally aspirated engine could be equally annoying

 

I found the short ratio box an arse with my old engine & turbo setup, but the long ratio diesel box where perfectly matched

 

Worth bearing in mind the 6spd boxes are some 20-30kg heavier than the 5spd boxes

 

With LSD in the equation,  more gear changes equals less time under traction and the increased chance of loosing traction (due to changing gear during diff operation)

Can the power delivery issue be dialled out with a map to an extent or is this just chasing tails with a KO3s turbo? I ask this for the benefit of the OP as he's considering stage 2 in future

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To some extent yes

 

It is possible to effectively write a specific map for each gear

 

A custom map fully taking into account what hardware you've got is always going to give better results

 

But ideally you need to think about what type of gear ratios are going to work for you're own style of driving

 

I'd simplify it down to this

 

If you already change gears frequenty, don't get a short ratio box

 

If you still want to go 6spd, get a diesel box

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So what i can gather is.. the 5 speed is suited to the way the engine an turbo work? by adding a 6 speed would put it higher up the revs causing turbo to run out of puff as they do towards top end therefore not as good as the 5 speed is.. but obviously baring in mind it could be mapped around the box and mods.. but if a 6 speed is needed go for the diesel 6 box?

 

PD130 6 box or PD160/150 6 box? or are they the same..?

Edited by Haych123
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5 speeds are preferred for drag strip, it's just what you want. I've heard the six speeds are stronger boxes but that the fives are better for acceleration on the dragstrips/street.

I think 5s are cheaper too 02a 02j.

I wonder why they did 6s in cupra rs and only 5s in vrs's.

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So what i can gather is.. the 5 speed is suited to the way the engine an turbo work? by adding a 6 speed would put it higher up the revs causing turbo to run out of puff as they do towards top end therefore not as good as the 5 speed, but if a 6 speed is needed go for the diesel 6 box?

 

PD130 6 box or PD160/150 6 box? or are they the same..?

 

That about sums it up, however Mr G has made it work but if you look at his sig he's gone stage 2, could talk to him about how it worked with that.  But I reiterate (and as snow_muncher suggests), think about your own driving style, the kinds of roads you mainly drive on as well and whether it would suit you, could be a great mod with a custom map to suit it, which I think it would need to make the most of it and fettle with the power delivery.

Edited by YellowCar
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That about sums it up, however Mr G has made it work but if you look at his sig he's gone stage 2, could talk to him about how it worked with that.  But I reiterate (and as snow_muncher suggests), think about your own driving style, the kinds of roads you mainly drive on as well and whether it would suit you, could be a great mod with a custom map to suit it, which I think it would need to make the most of it and fettle with the power delivery.

lol im not sure weather i want to do it now or not :nerd:  i wouldnt mind the extra shifts, i could live with that.. and ive heard from some people that the 5 speed box boosts the K04 turbo better than the 6 speed.. so not sure what to do.. do i fix my 5 speed or convert to a 6 :S

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This is a tricky decision, I don't envy you.  Even though I've not driven one I could see why KO4/bigger turbo would prefer longer higher ratios so if you want to go that route you may be better with your 5 speed.  Having said that if you have the kit there the conversion could actually be the cheaper option and you may find it works nicely for you, as said if you're going stage 2 you have an opportunity to build a custom map around your spec.  Also consider a KO4 would have boost higher in the rev range, which means it could take to a 6 speed box better than KO3, whether a 5 speed is better or not is another question......hhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....am I helping?  I'd toss a coin if I were you! I'd find more people who have gone 6 speed and ask them about it, mind you they will all probably say its great, but then a 5 speed with a KO4 or a custom stage 2 with KO3s would also be bloody marvellous.  Try the Seat and GTi forums as well you may find more who have done it.  Look at the costs of fixing your 5 speed and relate them to the conversion, but don't just think short term as you have stage 2 plans which could effect your decision, get all the info together, then sleep on it...good luck, I'm sure whatever you decide there will be ways to make it work well for you.

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My 2p

Mk1 Octy vrs, standard 5 speeder, drove fine standard and great with stage 1. Had not driven 6 speeder so didn't know any better.

Got a mk1 4x4, 5 speed box and standard map felt a tad breathless (150bhp). Stage 1 map on same box much better.

Then fitted 6 speed diesel ratio box and actually loved it, however I did most of my driving in 3rd/4th and had two 'cruising' gears (but box was for future plans).

6 speeder went pop so fitted Audi TT petrol 6 speeder as stop gap (still only stage 1 @ 220 ish horses) and all I can say is I NEED to fix the diesel box and get it back in!!

Too many gear changes for little gain even at stage 1 in my opinion so I would tend to echo going the diesel ratio route but think stage 2 would be a MINIMUM requirement, if not stay 5 speed and uprate the diff.

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My 2p

Mk1 Octy vrs, standard 5 speeder, drove fine standard and great with stage 1. Had not driven 6 speeder so didn't know any better.

Got a mk1 4x4, 5 speed box and standard map felt a tad breathless (150bhp). Stage 1 map on same box much better.

Then fitted 6 speed diesel ratio box and actually loved it, however I did most of my driving in 3rd/4th and had two 'cruising' gears (but box was for future plans).

6 speeder went pop so fitted Audi TT petrol 6 speeder as stop gap (still only stage 1 @ 220 ish horses) and all I can say is I NEED to fix the diesel box and get it back in!!

Too many gear changes for little gain even at stage 1 in my opinion so I would tend to echo going the diesel ratio route but think stage 2 would be a MINIMUM requirement, if not stay 5 speed and uprate the diff.

Yeah I would have thought stage 2 required to make it work effectively. Interesting that the diesel box is better. Anyway the OP reckons on stage 2 in the future, suppose it depends whether a slight mismatch can be put up with until then. Did you have a map built round your box nitro?

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My 2p

Mk1 Octy vrs, standard 5 speeder, drove fine standard and great with stage 1. Had not driven 6 speeder so didn't know any better.

Got a mk1 4x4, 5 speed box and standard map felt a tad breathless (150bhp). Stage 1 map on same box much better.

Then fitted 6 speed diesel ratio box and actually loved it, however I did most of my driving in 3rd/4th and had two 'cruising' gears (but box was for future plans).

6 speeder went pop so fitted Audi TT petrol 6 speeder as stop gap (still only stage 1 @ 220 ish horses) and all I can say is I NEED to fix the diesel box and get it back in!!

Too many gear changes for little gain even at stage 1 in my opinion so I would tend to echo going the diesel ratio route but think stage 2 would be a MINIMUM requirement, if not stay 5 speed and uprate the diff.

Yeah I would have thought stage 2 required to make it work effectively. Interesting that the diesel box is better. Anyway the OP reckons on stage 2 in the future, suppose it depends whether a slight mismatch can be put up with until then. Did you have a map built round your box nitro?

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