1.2TSI cam chain problem

[Minimoke]

Hi:

 

I've also posted this on the Freedom members area but thought I would also ask the question here.

 

I wonder if anybody can provide information about cam chain issues on the 1.2tsi (CBZ) engine.

 

My wife’s Fabia (May 2010) has always made a rattling noise for 3-5 seconds when starting after it’s been left standing overnight. After the initial rattling the engine quietens down and remains so even when started again during the day.

 

It sounds to me like the cam chain could be rattling because the hydraulic tensioner has lost pressure after the vehicle has been left standing.

 

I raised this as an issue with the service tech at the Skoda dealer several times over the years but was always told that the noise was “normal”. I was dubious but had to let the matter go. However it is now getting worse. The car is now over 4 years old and has only done 18,000 miles but is obviously now out of warranty.

 

I have investigated this further on the internet and there does seem to be an issue with the cam chains on both the 1.2 and 1.4 tsi engines.  So I took it to a reputable VAG independent today who said that they have never changed a chain/tensioner on the 1.2 tsi motor, but have done several on the 3 cylinder engine. However it may be that the 1.2 tsi on the Fabia have only relatively recently started to emerge from warranty so they may not have encountered many examples of this problem yet.

 

The VW independent suggested initially just changing the tensioner (and oil/filter) to see if that cures the noise.

 

The question I have is whether initially just replacing the tensioner/oil is a reasonable initial step? I have searched this forum and there are examples of members having chain problems on this motor but it is not clear if just changing the tensioner for the later version would provides a cure.  

 

All comments grateful received.

[eldo123]

I have a Sept 2010 1.2tsi which I have owned from new.  I also had the cam chain rattle but I had this work done under warranty at one of my services - without even raising the subject! At the time I knew many of us had the same noise but I got the impression it was normal. I think this was approx. 2.5 yrs old and probably around 40K mileage.

 

My memory is that they changed the cam chain and the tensioner at the same time.  I can check the receipt at some point and advise.

 

So from my perspective it seems like my dealer did this work as part of a service recall (if that is the right term) without any prompting from me.  On that basis I wonder if SUK could advise why this was not done on your vehicle - assuming you always kept to service intervals, etc.

 

I expect others may be able to advise their experiences.  I can say it did solve the rattle anyway.

 

Hope this helps a little.

[thomasaspin]

the problem lies in the way the tensioner works its works via oil pressure and when the pressure drops i.e. when stood still for a period of time the tensioner slackens off i would be careful because if the tensioner slackens off too much you could slip a tooth on the timing cog and knock the timing of the engine out 

[2ndskoda]

I have also had drain down problems with my year old 7000 mile 1.2 86 TSI. As one would expect my late 2013 already had the modified chain and tensioner when new, HOWEVER

 

I was alerted to the following info by XMAN  (thanks to him)

"There is a drain back valve under the oil filter, which is normally shut but opens when removing the oil filter to prevent oil spilling over the engine. This may be the culprit as the secret buletin also tells the technician to check this item".

 

I have had this checked out by my dealer, who did the necessary checks/corrections, and all is well. As thomasasapin has intimated draindown is a known problem, that a good dealer should be fully aware of.

Edited 17 February, 2015 by 2ndskoda

[Minimoke]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I'm getting the VW guy to replace the tensioner on Thursday and see if that alone quietens the rattle during start up.  If it doesn't I'll get the chain, camshaft sprocket and guides replaced as well.

 

2ndSkoda - Thanks for the tip about the drain back valve. I'll pass it onto the garage.

 

I'm really hacked off with the Skoda dealer consistently denying there was any problem during the warranty period. Unfortunately it expired 18 months ago.

 

One issue is that I'm not 100% sure what a "normal" 1.2 TSI engine should sound like. The cam chain rattle is quite obvious when starting after the car has been standing for a while, but after about 3-5 seconds it quietens down. But a slight ticking remains thereafter - the source of the sound is not easy to pin down. So its not entirely clear to me if this is the cam chain or something else. I suspect this might be chatter from the injectors - my new 1.4TSI creates a real racket with its injectors.

[xman]

The ticking is from the high pressure fuel pump, which is the cylindrical metal thing with a big hex nut, on top of the rocker just left of centre, on the back edge with the stainless pipes attached. Its mechanically driven.

[Minimoke]

The ticking is from the high pressure fuel pump, which is the cylindrical metal thing with a big hex nut, on top of the rocker just left of centre, on the back edge with the stainless pipes attached. Its mechanically driven.

 

Thats an excellent tip Xman.  When there is daylight I'll have a listen and see if I can localise the noise to the fuel pump.

[xman]

This 1.2tsi camchain rattle issue is a sore point with me. I have been complaining about our octavia to my dealer for over 2 years, 1st time they just plain ignored me, 2nd time said it was normal as it takes time for oil to circulate. 3rd time I went in before the warranty ran out with all the tpi's about the issue. They relented, pulled out the latest secret tpi and followed the procedure.

I thought now they should fix it at last....

This latest tpi instructs the dealer to firstly check the operation of the drain back valve which is under the filter only accesible by removing the filter. Then to remove the hydraulic tensioner which is easily accessible on the side of the timing case cover and carry out some measurement, basically how far the tensioner guides go in and this is a direct measurement of stretch. Mine was 52mm. Guess what? As it was less than 54mm it was deemed "ok" and skoda uk would not change the chain. Gutted. 2mm difference???

The history of this problem is well known to VAG. The initial design was poor, but the killer was the third party supplier was shipping poor quality chains, apparently stamping out the links with worn out dies. This meant the chain link pivots wear quickly and the chain "stretches". Toward the end of 2011 vag finally twigged and changed the design of the chain to beef it up. And they put a chain catcher into the plastic top cover to stop the chain jumping on the top cog. Whether they address the quality problem is unclear.

I'm not convinced they've fixed the issue and I suspect VAG, Skoda Uk, and the dealers have a conspiracy of silence because of the cost involved in a recall. The master tech did admit they had issues with Skoda Uk refusing to pay for "unecessary" camchain changes under warranty.

Anyone who has an engine built before mid 2011 that has this death rattle should contact Skoda UK and demand a chain change, they acknowledged the problem and the tpi's were published and should have been replaced under warranty, no questions asked...

Our octavia, with supposedly newer chain design, delivered Dec 2011 rattles on most cold starts and some warm starts when its been stood a while. Its nowhere near as quiet when running as our younger 1 year old Fabia 1.2 tsi. My fear is the chain is going to fail or need replacing in the next year or so, experience shows the dealer is useless at supporting its customer/product. I have some pretty damning evidence of their incompetence too, though thats another issue.

Vag/Skoda are hoping the chains will just last long enough to be well past warranty, and weak willed customers will just accept paying through the nose for the expensive job or at most they'll (in exceptional circumstances) give a 50% goodwill discount on the (poor quality) parts which is peanuts compared to the cost of labour or worse, for those unlucky ones that got their engines trashed.

 

Google the problem, and you will see this is a worldwide issue not just Skoda but VW, Seat and Audi.

Edited 18 February, 2015 by xman

[thomasaspin]

This 1.2tsi camchain rattle issue is a sore point with me. I have been complaining about our octavia to my dealer for over 2 years, 1st time they just plain ignored me, 2nd time said it was normal as it takes time for oil to circulate. 3rd time I went in before the warranty ran out with all the tpi's about the issue. They relented, pulled out the latest secret tpi and followed the procedure.

I thought now they should fix it at last....

This latest tpi instructs the dealer to firstly check the operation of the drain back valve which is under the filter only accesible by removing the filter. Then to remove the hydraulic tensioner which is easily accessible on the side of the timing case cover and carry out some measurement, basically how far the tensioner guides go in and this is a direct measurement of stretch. Mine was 52mm. Guess what? As it was less than 54mm it was deemed "ok" and skoda uk would not change the chain. Gutted. 2mm difference???

The history of this problem is well known to VAG. The initial design was poor, but the killer was the third party supplier was shipping poor quality chains, apparently stamping out the links with worn out dies. This meant the chain link pivots wear quickly and the chain "stretches". Toward the end of 2011 vag finally twigged and changed the design of the chain to beef it up. And they put a chain catcher into the plastic top cover to stop the chain jumping on the top cog. Whether they address the quality problem is unclear.

I'm not convinced they've fixed the issue and I suspect VAG, Skoda Uk, and the dealers have a conspiracy of silence because of the cost involved in a recall. The master tech did admit they had issues with Skoda Uk refusing to pay for "unecessary" camchain changes under warranty.

Anyone who has an engine built before mid 2011 that has this death rattle should contact Skoda UK and demand a chain change, they acknowledged the problem and the tpi's were published and should have been replaced under warranty, no questions asked...

Our octavia, with supposedly newer chain design, delivered Dec 2011 rattles on most cold starts and some warm starts when its been stood a while. Its nowhere near as quiet when running as our younger 1 year old Fabia 1.2 tsi. My fear is the chain is going to fail or need replacing in the next year or so, experience shows the dealer is useless at supporting its customer/product. I have some pretty damning evidence of their incompetence too, though thats another issue.

Vag/Skoda are hoping the chains will just last long enough to be well past warranty, and weak willed customers will just accept paying through the nose for the expensive job or at most they'll (in exceptional circumstances) give a 50% goodwill discount on the (poor quality) parts which is peanuts compared to the cost of labour or worse, for those unlucky ones that got their engines trashed.

 

Google the problem, and you will see this is a worldwide issue not just Skoda but VW, Seat and Audi.

skoda always leave the customer's in the dark about engine problems they will never just hold there hands up and admit an engine problem, ask george (goneoffski) he will tell you , take the 1.4 tsi for instance i could be telling skoda customer services about the problem and its common until I'm blue in the face and they play dumb asif its the first they have heard about it.

[Jabozuma]

Stop talking to them and start writing letters, not e-mails, and send them via first class recorded. Copy SUK in as well

[Minimoke]

This 1.2tsi camchain rattle issue is a sore point with me. I have been complaining about our octavia to my dealer for over 2 years, 1st time they just plain ignored me, 2nd time said it was normal as it takes time for oil to circulate. 3rd time I went in before the warranty ran out with all the tpi's about the issue. They relented, pulled out the latest secret tpi and followed the procedure.

I thought now they should fix it at last....

This latest tpi instructs the dealer to firstly check the operation of the drain back valve which is under the filter only accesible by removing the filter. Then to remove the hydraulic tensioner which is easily accessible on the side of the timing case cover and carry out some measurement, basically how far the tensioner guides go in and this is a direct measurement of stretch. Mine was 52mm. Guess what? As it was less than 54mm it was deemed "ok" and skoda uk would not change the chain. Gutted. 2mm difference???

The history of this problem is well known to VAG. The initial design was poor, but the killer was the third party supplier was shipping poor quality chains, apparently stamping out the links with worn out dies. This meant the chain link pivots wear quickly and the chain "stretches". Toward the end of 2011 vag finally twigged and changed the design of the chain to beef it up. And they put a chain catcher into the plastic top cover to stop the chain jumping on the top cog. Whether they address the quality problem is unclear.

 

 

Xman - what exactly is a tpi?  Can you provide the reference numbers of the tpi's you are referring to?

 

Thanks MM

[Minimoke]

Had the cam chain tensioner and oil/filter changed today. No death rattle on starting when collected from the garage, but it had only stood parked for about 6 hours. Sterner test will be starting it tomorrow after it has stood overnight.

 

Garage (VW independent specialist) told me that it may not be possible to fit the latest (revised) parts for the cam chain assembly to engines manufactured before June 2011 according to the information they have been given (ie retro fit is not possible to my wife’s early 2010 model).

 

 

If that is the case then I’m seriously considering moving the car on. Playing Russian roulette is not a very attractive proposition.     

[Bcc212]

This worries me slightly. I have a late 2011 model and I've not heard such a noise yet but use the car daily. Feel like I need to leave it sitting a few days and see if this happens to mine.

[thomasaspin]

this is a really widespread common problem and on the 1.4 tsi 

[xman]

Xman - what exactly is a tpi?  Can you provide the reference numbers of the tpi's you are referring to?

 

Thanks MM

 

TPIs are in house service bulletins,

 

Quite a few relating to the TSi chain problem, I dont have the latest, VAG dont publish them, but attached is one you should look at.

 

It shows the new chain and cover which should be fitted to your older engine - your independent was talking tosh. But then again Skoda should have done this FOC under warranty. Write to Skoda UK and complain!!

 

TPI?2026513-5 - Engine rattling noises from engine compartment when starting engine (ENG).pdf

 

For briskoda members, how much did the job cost?

Edited 19 February, 2015 by xman

[Minimoke]

TPIs are in house service bulletins,

 

Quite a few relating to the TSi chain problem, I dont have the latest, VAG dont publish them, but attached is one you should look at.

 

It shows the new chain and cover which should be fitted to your older engine - your independent was talking tosh. But then again Skoda should have done this FOC under warranty. Write to Skoda UK and complain!!

 

TPI 2026513-5 - Engine rattling noises from engine compartment when starting engine (ENG).pdf

 

For briskoda members, how much did the job cost?

 

Many thanks for the TPI - really useful ammunition.

 

You are being a bit harsh on my garage. He suggested only replacing the camchain tensioner as both Skoda and the VAG group parts supplier were not sure as to whether the later parts from the cam chain assembly can be retrofitted. The parts manual is totally unclear - he showed me.

     

Replacing the cam chain tensioner alone was not vastly expensive. £32 for the tensioner plus about 15/30 minutes labour to fit (I can't be more precise about the labour as another unrelated small job was done at the same time) plus VAT. So I've not lost much by doing this first.

 

Cost of replacing chain, tensioner, guides, top camshaft sprocket, oil and filter change plus VAT is estimated at around £550. Obviously would cost more at a main dealer.

 

Replacing the tensioner seems to have quietened the rattle a bit, but I'm not sure that its entirely cured it. Does it sound more normal now? The ticking from the high pressure fuel pump clouds the issue.

 

 

The car had not been standing long before the video was taken. So I'll try it again tomorrow morning after its been parked overnight to see if the overnight startup rattle has gone.

[Jabozuma]

Perhaps it was said already. I seem to recall the tensioner is operated using oil pressure. If there is a problem there then no amount of chain/tensioner/etc replacement is going to make any difference.

Maybe you should try to use engine oil flush, drop the oil and re-fill with fresh oil. Might be some passage is blocked and just needs a bit of persuasion to work again? 

If the chain is gone or about to go then giving it an Italian tune is not the best of ideas but in other situations should be beneficial to take the car well above normal operating temps 

[xman]

Many thanks for the TPI - really useful ammunition.

 

You are being a bit harsh on my garage. He suggested only replacing the camchain tensioner as both Skoda and the VAG group parts supplier were not sure as to whether the later parts from the cam chain assembly can be retrofitted. The parts manual is totally unclear - he showed me.

     

 

Ok, now I understand why. That revised top cover with chain guide to stop the chain riding off the sprocket is a vitally important modification and I would recommended that is fitted as a priority.

 

Jabozuma, the tensioner is hydraulic, basically a piston that pushes one of the guides in to take the slack. Although I've seen pictures IMO it should also have a spring and/or ratchet mechanism to stop it releasing when the engine is stood, but evidence is that when oil drains back, it does release. Because the tensioner is on the return path, Ive read its very important not to let the engine spin backwards, e.g. when you leave the car in gear when engine off and allow the car to rotate the engine back even a tiny bit, as this would tension the return side and push the hydraulic tensioner back, ultimately releasing tension.

 

The culprit could also very well be the drain valve in the filter housing that should be shut, it only opens when the filter is unscrewed. Even a tiny leakage will drain down overnight. Could be just cleaning and checking this valve properly would help. When our dealer master tech checked it (see my previous post)  the problem subsequently seemed to go away. Unfortunately, they used the wrong oil (yet again!!!) Cheap Platinum oil 5-40w 502.00 instead of Castrol Edge 5-30w 504.00 for variable service interval. Picked up straight away by the oil quality sensor....

 

So yet again, moaning to a reluctant to believe/do anything dealer, they changed the oil and filter and the rattle returned. 

 

Minimoke, yes listening in the engine bay is misleading as fuel pump and injector noise is confusing. Easier to hear the problem in the cabin, when starting, you hear loud rattling for 1.5 to 3 seconds and then it goes much quieter. Thats the loose chain rattling.

Edited 20 February, 2015 by xman

[Old Webbo]

Does anyone know how many engines might be affected. I have a Dec 2010 model but with low mileage so no problems evident yet. During the warranty period I mentioned this potential issue to my dealer but they said they had never needed to change a chain. If all pre 2011 engines will be affected at some time in the future I would like to get this logged as an inherent fault and use the Sale of Goods act to claim a free repair, when and if the time comes.

[xman]

During the warranty period I mentioned this potential issue to my dealer but they said they had never needed to change a chain.

 

This is a standard ploy. My service manager said something similar. However the master tech told me that Vag inc Skoda were annoyed at so many chains being "unnecessarily" changed that they finally revised their tpi's such that a measurement was necessary to justify the job.

[Minimoke]

Does anyone know how many engines might be affected. I have a Dec 2010 model but with low mileage so no problems evident yet. During the warranty period I mentioned this potential issue to my dealer but they said they had never needed to change a chain. If all pre 2011 engines will be affected at some time in the future I would like to get this logged as an inherent fault and use the Sale of Goods act to claim a free repair, when and if the time comes.

I'm afraid I had the same experience as Xman. The engine (I suspected the cam chain from the outset) made a noise from new when starting. Skoda dealer said this sounded "normal".

 

So now the vehicle is out of warranty and I'm probably well and truly stuffed if the cam chain lets go.

 

The TPI from Xman (see above) indicates the engine numbers from when revised parts were used at the factory. I think these changes were made after December 2010 (mine is a June 2010 and only done 18k miles). Whether those part revisions have provided a  permanent cure I do not know.

 

Having said that my local VW independent (who I trust) says that he has changed plenty of cam chains on 1.4TSI's and surprisingly also some 1.2HTP's but mine is the first 1.2TSI he has had to deal with. I think that is possibly why people may think the noise is normal? 

[Minimoke]

Minimoke, yes listening in the engine bay is misleading as fuel pump and injector noise is confusing. Easier to hear the problem in the cabin, when starting, you hear loud rattling for 1.5 to 3 seconds and then it goes much quieter. Thats the loose chain rattling.

 

Bit off topic but the injector chatter on my new 1.4TSI makes an awful racket. Makes you think the cam chain is well and truly shot, but of course it can't be!!!!!!!!

 

[Minimoke]

Ok, now I understand why. That revised top cover with chain guide to stop the chain riding off the sprocket is a vitally important modification and I would recommended that is fitted as a priority.

 

I followed up your recommendation today and had a browse of the parts catalogue.

 

The camchain box referred to in the TPI you kindly provided above (part 03F 109 210C) is in fact the complete cam box (see attached picture). It probably only make sense to change that as part of a job to replace the entire cam chain assembly. Although the part looks substantial in the picture (and hence potentially expensive) I found it could be bought for as little as 34 Euros from third parties on ebay.

 

Although this is a revised part it makes no sense to me. (But then I'm not an engineeer). It may guard against the cam chain jumping the lower sprocket but would do little to prevent the camchain jumping the camshaft sprocket. 

 

Are you referring to the top cover which is a different part? I cannot find an upgraded alternative but that does not mean there is not one.

 

The TPI also refers to a "timing chain repair kit" part number 03F 198 229A. This "kit" comprises just the chain and tensioner - it does not include the guides etc. People who have their chains replaced using that part number should be aware of that fact. It is not be a big deal when the cam box is stripped down to replace ALL the parts. The parts of the entire assembly cannot come to much more than £150 - it's the labour that is the killer, so it makes sense to replace everything once it's stripped down.

 

Ruville used to provide a complete kit of tensioner, chain and guides for around 95 Euros for the 1.2TSI. Part number is 3454036S. I don't know about the quality of their stuff or whether its still available.

 

My wife has decided to keep the Fabia (she was thinking of chopping it for a new Citigo which I think would be a smart move - but she has now changed her mind bless her heart!!). So I'm looking to fix the cam chain issue if I can, rather than moving the Fabia on. Now that the real scope of the work and costs have (almost!) been quantified it seems to sensible to me to spend the money. Its a fraction of the cost of installing a new short engine.

 

Down to my friendly on Monday for another discussion. (he's probably sick of the sight of me by now).

[Minimoke]

Hi

 

Had to upload this picture seperately. The website had a bit of a "moment" when  I tried to attach it to a reply post.

 

One final point - there are plently of posts on the web about faults with early 1.2TSI cam chains and third parties are supplying thyeir own parts which says that there is a demand out there. I don't want to be a Jeremiah but.,....... 

[xman]

Whoops! Goes to show the importance of reading AND understanding....I thought illustration 4 was the top cover, but you are right its the main cover that has the chain guard.

So probably vag think when the chain is slack, it hangs down, and the skipping/detatchment happens on the bottom sprocket?

Anyway, good work minimoke!

Keep us posted whether you experience the death rattle again after just a tensioner change.