1.2TSI cam chain problem

[Minimoke]

Keep us posted whether you experience the death rattle again after just a tensioner change.

 

Replacement of the tensioner with the latest version seems to have worked. Not had the start up rattle yet. Have now also changed oil and filter and will continue to monitor. I'll report back if the noise retruns.

[Old Webbo]

I want to check my engine number against those given in the TPI but cannot find where it is stamped on the engine block. There is a date stamp on the RHS but not a lot else I could find. Can anyone point me in the right direction. Thanks

[xman]

Phone your dealer and he will give you it.

[DGW]

It is on the car's V5C (Vehicle Registration Document).

[xman]

It is on the car's V5C (Vehicle Registration Document).

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

[Old Webbo]

Thanks, didn't think of that. It was on the V5C, unfortunately it confirms I have the 'old' cam chain so will need to keep an ear out for the death rattle.

[hussein]

 

December 2010 '60' Plate Fabia 1.2 TSI DSG, 36,800 miles, FSSH.

Cam Chain and Tensioner Replacement, Skoda Dealer (London), May 2015

Cost me £490 after 35% Goodwill from Skoda.  Bank Holiday very much limited my complaining to Skoda UK.

 

It's my second Fabia and as much as I would like to chip it in for a Yeti soon, I'm definitely thinking twice about it.

Edited 4 May, 2015 by hussein

[xman]

Sympathies, I bet you feel like the guy in the pic!

Disgraceful Skoda (VAG) attitude to this problem.

I would consider making a claim to the small claims court as goods sold not fit for purpose and with known manufacturing defect.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/58877/timing-chain-failure-on-skoda-octavia-1-2-tsi---what-are-my-options-

[Minimoke]

December 2010 '60' Plate Fabia 1.2 TSI DSG, 36,800 miles, FSSH.

Cam Chain and Tensioner Replacement, Skoda Dealer (London), May 2015

Cost me £490 after 35% Goodwill from Skoda. Bank Holiday very much limited my complaining to Skoda UK.

It's my second Fabia and as much as I would like to chip it in for a Yeti soon, I'm definitely thinking twice about it.

Interesting. How did you get Skoda to chip in with goodwill? Skoda UK and dealer were not interested in my case despite the noise being very obvious before I got just the tensioner changed.

[hussein]

How did you get Skoda to chip in with goodwill?

 

I told them that to have a bill like that for a terminal failure after just four and a half years and low mileage is simply not acceptable.  Especially for a car that is well looked after with FSSH.  This is my second Skoda and the only way I would consider another is if he did something about it.  Then I pestered him in a reasonable measured way.  He first kindly did a bit of a discount on the labour charge on the dealer side of things, but then I asked him to put it to Skoda and he came back with this deal.  I think there is probably more to be had (50% could be achievable, logically they should have paid for all of it), but it was bank holiday and I just needed the car back asap at this point.  Combine this with the cost of the £259 major service and it was an expensive day.

 

On one hand, I'm lucky it didn't break on me and the engine did not have to go in the bin.

 

On the other hand this whole issue is due to the chain tensioner not being manufactured to the correct tolerance between 2010 and 2011.  So it is Skoda's fault.  Why am I paying for this?

Edited 11 May, 2015 by hussein

[Minimoke]

Hi,

 

Just had the cam chain on my 1.2 TSI Fabia fixed by Skoda main dealer  as the stretch was over the permissible maximum limit of 74mm. I’m posting this as general information for all others with an early 1.2 TSI.

 

The latest “repair” kit is part number  03F198158B and this is a revised kit. The kit not only has the revised cam chain, tensioner, and guide rails, but additionally revised camshaft and crankshaft sprockets.

 

The revised cam chain box with the guards which were intended to prevent the chain jumping the crankshaft sprocket no longer appears to be fitted as a replacement for the original chain box.

 

I searched the web using the new part number and came up with several hits. The following link is to an Italian Audi  A1 owners forum and is very informative (you will have to crank up Google translate if your Italian is not up the speed!):

http://a1.audi.club.forumfree.it/?t=63989251&st=240

 

If their forum is to be believed (and I think it probably is bearing in mind all the photographs provided), the important points appear to be:

- The previous version of the “repair” kit may not fix the problem – the new chain can still stretch

- There is a further TPI apart from the one noted earlier in this thread. Amongst other things this specifies the crucial 74mm stretch criteria in order to qualify for a warranty repair.

- The cam chain itself is now on its third version. Looking at the pictures the latest version appears substantially different from the original.

- VAG originally thought that the cam/crank sprockets could not be changed hence the earlier version of the repair kit relied on using a revised chain which would fit the original sprockets. There must have been some worry about this approach – hence the revised cam chain box (which now does not seem to be required with the latest cam chain/sprocket arrangement). I hope VAG look at their enginering drawings more closely in future!

 

Hope this is useful background information for all you 1.2 TSI owners with cam chain worries.

[jim157]

Great info, thanks.  Did Skoda do the work under warranty?

[Minimoke]

Great info, thanks. Did Skoda do the work under warranty?

No the warranty expired almost 2 years ago. Skoda made a generous goodwill contribution though as its a known problem and the car has always been serviced by Skoda dealers.

[Brimstage]

My wife has an 11 plate Fabia 1.2 TSI. Some weeks ago it developed a rattle and at service (not a Skoda dealer) the garage said it was the timing chain. I don't trust the Skoda dealer which sold me the car and I suspected that Skoda UK would prevaricate- so I took the car to a respected independent. He confirmed it was the timing chain and recommended immediate replacement. As I was concerned as to the implications of chain failure I had it replaced at a cost of nearly £600 - a cost which I have verified as fair.

I wrote to Skoda UK and told them that I was aware (from the forums) that there is a problem with these timing chains and that they have/were being replaced. I asked them to refund me for the work.

Unsurprisingly they refused to contribute and tellingly said " .... Skoda UK do not take into consideration anything that is posted on Internet forums" and " .... any failure is most disappointing"

So there you have it. They refuse to comment/confirm a problem with the TSI timing chains but are disappointed in the failure. They also have no interest in what we as Skoda owners think and post on the forums. A level of duplicity that you expect from the VAG group.

I'll pursue it and keep you posted, but I suspect I have bought my last car from this group.

[Rooted]

Welcome to the forum.

 

There is a Timing Chain Issue with some 1.2 TSI, and VW / Skoda / Audi / Seat know because there is a TPI on it and if you have an affected engine you get the Warranty Work.

 

I fully understand some Call Handler at Skoda not being interested in Work you had done or Internet Stories.

It is a shame you never went down the official lines of raising a case and having Skoda Approve the remedial work.

[xman]

Welcome to the forum.

 

There is a Timing Chain Issue with some 1.2 TSI, and VW / Skoda / Audi / Seat know because there is a TPI on it and if you have an affected engine you get the Warranty Work.

 

I fully understand some Call Handler at Skoda not being interested in Work you had done or Internet Stories.

It is a shame you never went down the official lines of raising a case and having Skoda Approve the remedial work.

Ha!! Dont believe it...

I tried the official line for 3 years during the warranty period and got the runaround from the dealer each and every time. There are many tpi's each superceeding previous ones. Just before the warranty period expired they finally relented but my octavia camchain passed tpi inspection by 1mm would you believe! No warranty work approved!! I gave up in the end.

[Rooted]

Run around from a Dealer and their staff. !  

Your warranty is not with a Dealership, and you can get the run around when you allow someone that is acting that way.

 

As it is the Fundamental Design and Manufacturing and Quality Control issues have been proven to exist.

You need to get your consumer rights and sometimes that needs an Independent Experts Report following an inspection, 

and then charge Skoda for your Expenses incurred.

 

But it is the Warranty Provider you are taking action against not some Official Dealership.

Edited 9 March, 2016 by GoneOffskiroottoot

[xman]

Run around from a Dealer and their staff. !  

Your warranty is not with a Dealership, and you can get the run around when you allow someone that is acting that way.

In year 3 the warranty is with the dealer ("retailer network")

[Rooted]

The Fundamental Design and Manufacturing fault is the Volkswagen Groups, and Dealerships and Motor Groups are not sucking it in and paying out.

The issue is ongoing where the VW Group have not actually replaced faulty parts, they knew the issues while the vehicle / Engines were under Manufacturers Warranty.

2 Years in some other World Regions.

[Minimoke]

My wife has an 11 plate Fabia 1.2 TSI. Some weeks ago it developed a rattle and at service (not a Skoda dealer) the garage said it was the timing chain. I don't trust the Skoda dealer which sold me the car and I suspected that Skoda UK would prevaricate- so I took the car to a respected independent. He confirmed it was the timing chain and recommended immediate replacement. As I was concerned as to the implications of chain failure I had it replaced at a cost of nearly £600 - a cost which I have verified as fair.

I wrote to Skoda UK and told them that I was aware (from the forums) that there is a problem with these timing chains and that they have/were being replaced. I asked them to refund me for the work.

Unsurprisingly they refused to contribute and tellingly said " .... Skoda UK do not take into consideration anything that is posted on Internet forums" and " .... any failure is most disappointing"

So there you have it. They refuse to comment/confirm a problem with the TSI timing chains but are disappointed in the failure. They also have no interest in what we as Skoda owners think and post on the forums. A level of duplicity that you expect from the VAG group.

I'll pursue it and keep you posted, but I suspect I have bought my last car from this group.

I know you are understandably upset but there needs to be some balance here.

 

I'm sorry but you made a fundamental mistake by not taking it to a Skoda dealer in the first place for diagnosis.

 

Skoda do NOT deny there is a fault with the cam chains on the 1.2 TSI engine. There is a specific TPI (see earlier in this thread) which covers precisely this problem – it details how the dealer should diagnose it, and how they should rectify it. 

 

There were several TPI's because Skoda initially did not diagnose the cause correctly. They thought it was a manufacturing fault (there were also issues with 1.4TSI cam chains failing at the same time which were caused by a defective die stamping machine at a sub-contractor, and Skoda seem to have jumped to the wrong conclusion). However it is a design fault – initially there were reports of replacement chains also failing.  There have been at least 3 iterations of chain design, and now the sprockets also have to be changed in order to achieve a reliable repair – again this is covered earlier in this thread.

 

Your wife has a Fabia which I guess is about 2 years out of warranty? I was also in the same position with my wife’s Fabia but Skoda made an 80% contribution to the repair despite her car also being 2 years out of warranty. However it had a full Skoda service history.

 

From what you have posted I guess the car has not been serviced within the dealer network? Also you have taken it to an indie for repair and then retrospectively attempted to get Skoda to pay for it? I’m sorry but that approach was doomed to failure from the outset.  Did your indie point out that this is a well known issue and that you should contact Skoda for advice BEFORE they did the repair in case there might be “goodwill” forthcoming? My local indie certainly did and this turned out to be good advice.

 

£600 for such a repair is fairly cheap even at an indies labour rate. Did they use the latest full repair kit rather than just replace the chain? Look at the part number on their invoice. See above for repair kit part numbers. There is a right way to fix this problem and a wrong way.

 

I’m not an apologist for VAG/Skoda. They have some serious openness/customer service issues to address, but this particular mechanical problem is probably not one to die on the barricades over as they effectively have acknowledged the existance of the problem via their TPI's.

 

BTW. Ignore what Skoda Customer Services may or may not say. They are just working from a script and their level of knowledge is just about zero. I found that a sympathetic main dealer who knows how to “work the system” will get you a better result over problems like this. If you don't trust your local dealer then find another one. 

Edited 13 March, 2016 by Minimoke

[Old Webbo]

I have bought a dashcam and hard wiring kit for my car and intend to connect it to the fuse box on the driver's side using a 'piggyback' connector. However I am not confident about removing panels, especially the one on the A-pillar, to run in the cable. Can anyone advise on the best way to do this. Much appreciated.

[Old Webbo]

Whoops, meant to start a new topic. Have copied the question under a new heading so please ignore this one.

[istannbullu34]

I know you are understandably upset but there needs to be some balance here.

I'm sorry but you made a fundamental mistake by not taking it to a Skoda dealer in the first place for diagnosis.

Skoda do NOT deny there is a fault with the cam chains on the 1.2 TSI engine. There is a specific TPI (see earlier in this thread) which covers precisely this problem – it details how the dealer should diagnose it, and how they should rectify it.

There were several TPI's because Skoda initially did not diagnose the cause correctly. They thought it was a manufacturing fault (there were also issues with 1.4TSI cam chains failing at the same time which were caused by a defective die stamping machine at a sub-contractor, and Skoda seem to have jumped to the wrong conclusion). However it is a design fault – initially there were reports of replacement chains also failing. There have been at least 3 iterations of chain design, and now the sprockets also have to be changed in order to achieve a reliable repair – again this is covered earlier in this thread.

Your wife has a Fabia which I guess is about 2 years out of warranty? I was also in the same position with my wife’s Fabia but Skoda made an 80% contribution to the repair despite her car also being 2 years out of warranty. However it had a full Skoda service history.

From what you have posted I guess the car has not been serviced within the dealer network? Also you have taken it to an indie for repair and then retrospectively attempted to get Skoda to pay for it? I’m sorry but that approach was doomed to failure from the outset. Did your indie point out that this is a well known issue and that you should contact Skoda for advice BEFORE they did the repair in case there might be “goodwill” forthcoming? My local indie certainly did and this turned out to be good advice.

£600 for such a repair is fairly cheap even at an indies labour rate. Did they use the latest full repair kit rather than just replace the chain? Look at the part number on their invoice. See above for repair kit part numbers. There is a right way to fix this problem and a wrong way.

I’m not an apologist for VAG/Skoda. They have some serious openness/customer service issues to address, but this particular mechanical problem is probably not one to die on the barricades over as they effectively have acknowledged the existance of the problem via their TPI's.

BTW. Ignore what Skoda Customer Services may or may not say. They are just working from a script and their level of knowledge is just about zero. I found that a sympathetic main dealer who knows how to “work the system” will get you a better result over problems like this. If you don't trust your local dealer then find another one.

Sorry to bring this topic backs but i have doubts about my new car after reading these failures

I ve got my octavia which has biult date of late october 2011 with 1.2 tsi engine, and it is one of the engines whic had the uptated chain from the tpi which was shared in first pages

The car is around 40k miles and all time serviced in skoda

I hear some sound during the cold start gor a few seconds but after that all is okay

I will book somw time to chech the cam and the tensioner with skoda as i do not havs the chance to leave it soon and their schedule is not fit for me

Just curious if this issue is also valid for the engines eith modified chain? Would you suggest to change whole or just tensioner?

[xman]

Sorry, this is a long reply for Istanbullu

I have exactly the same problem on my son's Octavia which we bought new in December 2011 - built 6 weeks earlier.

Because of my son's annual 20k mileage we decided to make use of the variable servicing, in hindsight maybe a bad decision. We started hearing camchain rattles on some cold starts after about 20,000 miles, and started complaining to the dealer who firstly ignored us and then insisted there was nothing wrong. On the third service under great threat from myself, with the car just under 3 years and 55,000 miles, the dealer finally relented and checked the engine in accordance with a recently updated skoda tpi which they refused to let me read. This check involved the removal of the hydraulic tensioner at the rear side of the engine and measuring how extended it is, as its related to the length of the chain. Just our luck, if you can believe my dealer (and I dont), the measurement came in at 73mm and the limit allowed was 74mm, so no warranty claim was possible!! You can imagine how angry I was, but the dealer refused any further investigation.

Anyway, I've researched this problem extensively over the years and with many observations and little tests Ive done, reached the following conclusions.

There have been at least 3 or more revisions to the chain, tensioners and sprockets over the years, in this example we seem to have the 2nd revision (engines built after approx jun 2011). This revision didnt fully fix the problem.

The problem is more complex than just a stretching chain and VW design engineers have long been looking at the wrong things.

Firstly, the top mounted filter has a sprung rubber seal that sits over a return to sump oilway in the filter housing. Its a poor design in that if the filter is under or overtightened, the seal doesnt seal or it distorts allowing the filter to drain down slowly to sump when the engine is stood. This means the engine can takes some time, maybe more than a couple of seconds to fully pressurise the hydraulic tensioner.

The OE filter was revised in 2011, but my dealer still fits the old type, I suspect because the old design is still used on the 1.4tsi camchain engine.

Old design Mann W712/93, new design W712/94, different seal arrangement.

Which leads to the REAL problem, in my opinion, in these early revisions. IF, for any reason, the engine runs back, for even a fraction of a rev, the chain on the return (slack) side is tensioned, the hydraulic tensioner will simply push back and because the engine is switched off and there is no oil pressure, will stay there.

This fractional run back can occur when you leave the car stood in gear, for instance, facing uphill in forward gear. I also think this happens when the engine stops with a piston near the top of a compression stroke, and the compression pushes the engine back anything up to half a rev.

So occasionally, the chain (which may be stretched) is allowed to go slack when stood. This allows it, on start up, to ride up on (probably) the bottom sprocket, making chain rattle noises and wearing the sprocket and chain, potentially slipping a tooth or more with disastrous consequences.

Back to my sons Octavia....Its now done 82,000 miles so what have we done?

1. Ditched the dealer and long life variable servicing.

2. Use the correct filters and changed the oil myself every 6000 miles for now. Its remarkable how dirty the engine internals were due to extended intervals which can only contribute to chain wear, and this can be seen in the oil we are draining out after only 6000 miles.

3. Never leave parked in gear.

4. If we hear a loud rattle on start up, IMMEDIATELY switch the engine off!! This is the sound of a chain riding up on a sprocket. Restart the engine after a couple of seconds and this time its quiet because the tensioner has retensioned sufficiently (so far, touch wood)

5. Keep fingers crossed and pray....

6. If the chain should slip and destroy the engine, forget all about Skoda/Volkswagen and associates and go buy Japanese/Korean, and post all about the experience here and other places for all to see.

Edited 18 September, 2016 by xman

[istannbullu34]

xman

 

thanks a lot for the detailed explanation.

 

I definitely understand that feeling when they gave you this comment with the measurement, I had a lot of issues with authorized services in 2 different countries with different brands. They will ignore and deny the issue as long as they can.

 

I was just reading from this Italian one (I suppose you already saw it)  but it sounds like the it is not up-to-date

 

http://a1.audi.club.forumfree.it/?t=69339806

 

Somewhere at the end, they mentioned also that all these updated kits were to solve the issue permanently, and there were reports about jumped chain cases and so on.

 

I was so tired of French cars and with their problems. Finally I thought I got something technically without `any critical issue` , I see that I was wrong. I just sold my Megane 2 and bought the Octavia a few weeks ago and we have found out by luck these threads about the cam chain issue on the internet after a few days.

 

I was about to buy a Toyota but then I decided to buy Octavia to have something younger. 

 

I do not trust in car mechanics easily, it looks like I will have a long run with Skoda dealer here in Poland for long time because of this. 

 

However, I am not sure if this sound i hear is the rattling sound as I have never used any car with cam chain. This is kind of powerful sound coming for 1-2 seconds, maybe I will make a video to show you how it is.

 

I hope it will not  but if it does, I cannot imagine how crazy I will be, we do not earn this money so easy

 

And most important point here  is : there should have been a recall for this.