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1.2TSI cam chain problem


Minimoke

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I have a 2011 Monte Carlo on 56000 miles that been Used Daily mostly then parked up for week intervals at times more.

Its always had a slight rattle on start up but settles down. Ive yet to be concerned but this.

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Just to chip in here.

I agree with Xman regarding the oil change regime. Extended servicing intervals on these engines is not a smart idea in my opinion.

In June 2015 my wifes Fabia had what was the latest chain/sprocket/tensioner kit (part 03F198158B) and this seems (touch wood) to have fixed the problem. Now absolutely no rattles on start up - the difference in noise was very noticeable.

Earlier repair kits are reputed to also fail so the very latest kit is essential. Changing just the tensioner provides no long term solution - I know as I tried it.

Edited by Minimoke
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I was just reading from this Italian one (I suppose you already saw it) but it sounds like the it is not up-to-date

http://a1.audi.club.forumfree.it/?t=69339806

Somewhere at the end, they mentioned also that all these updated kits were to solve the issue permanently, and there were reports about jumped chain cases and so on.

I was so tired of French cars and with their problems. I thought I got something technically without `any critical issue` , I see that I was wrong. I just sold my Megane 2 and bought the Octavia a few weeks ago and we have found out by luck these threads about the cam chain issue on the internet after a few days.

I was about to buy a Toyota but then I decided to buy Octavia to have something younger.

I do not trust in car mechanics easily, it looks like I will have

However, I am not sure if this sound i hear is the rattling sound as I have never used any car with cam chain. This is kind of powerful sound coming for 1-2 seconds, maybe I will make a video to show you how it is.

I think that you are right that the link is a little out of date. The latest repair kit has a different number. The chain design is on its third revision. I posted a picture of all types in another thread on this forum. Search on my user name.

Regarding the chain jumping the sprockets. I dont think this is an issue with the latest revision. At one stage the TPI mandated fitment of a revised cam chain cover to counter this but that is no longer the case.

If you have a rattle that only lasts 1-2 seconds after start up it is almost certainly from the cam chain. Injector rattles are a constant feature on these engines and the noise from them is always present.

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Just to chip in here.

I agree with Xman regarding the oil change regime. Extended servicing intervals on these engines is not a smart idea in my opinion.

In June 2015 my wifes Fabia had what was the latest chain/sprocket/tensioner kit (part 03F198158B) and this seems (touch wood) to have fixed the problem. Now absolutely no rattles on start up - the difference in noise was very noticeable.

Earlier repair kits are reputed to also fail so the very latest kit is essential. Changing just the tensioner provides no long term solution - I know as I tried it.

 

Hi,Thanks for your continued contribution,

 

My car has the timing chain issue and suffered from the infamous start up rattle along with a light engine judder on idle, my engine code (CBZA) was one of the engines that had been effected.

I changed the oil to GM 5-W30 and added a bottle of Lucas engine oil additive just for extra lubrication, i found that this covered up the initial start up rattle and has been driving fine since.

The underlining issue is still present so a new timing chain needs to be fitted.

If i was to Purchase the revised timing chain kit from dealers and have it fitted through a  reputable independent garage, will this be the best option for me?

As my car is outside of warranty and i don't really want to pay dealer prices for this fix.

Edited by FabialicousMonte2012
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Thanks a lot Minimoke.

 

Looks like from yours and Xman`s experience, the issue is really disturbing and sounds like I will feel uncomfortable every time I turn the key.

 

I am checking now the latest kit you have mentioned, here in Poland from some website and it is worth around 90-100 quid when I want to buy it myself. And I have some small car mechanic that they can do it for me, however I am a little scared that they are a little old-fashioned, if they will be able to take care of the change properly. They will ask for around 100-150 pounds to fit these I suppose, so it will come for 250 quid.

 

When I asked the authorized service, they mentioned some amount around 500 pounds with parts and the work and I am not sure if they will use the latest kit.

 

I am thinking it is better to  change all than sitting on kneedles, sounds like a time bomb. Now, it is time to decide with whom to change it. It is a lot of money to do it in Skoda authorized service but the thing is that I will not be able to get anything from Skoda if I do not change it there.

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By the way just to add, the service intervals are so long, I was surprised when I saw in the book that next service should be at 86000 km when I bought the car. Looks like the previous owner did not pass the limit of 13-14 k miles between the 3 servicing he had. I cannot even imagine how the oil may look like after 20k miles.

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Hi,Thanks for your continued contribution,

 

My car has the timing chain issue and suffered from the infamous start up rattle along with a light engine judder on idle, my engine code (CBZA) was one of the engines that had been effected.

I changed the oil to GM 5-W30 and added a bottle of Lucas engine oil additive just for extra lubrication, i found that this covered up the initial start up rattle and has been driving fine since.

The underlining issue is still present so a new timing chain needs to be fitted.

If i was to Purchase the revised timing chain kit from dealers and have it fitted through a  reputable independent garage, will this be the best option for me?

As my car is outside of warranty and i don't really want to pay dealer prices for this fix.

 

My experience is that changing the oil etc will disguise the problem for a while but the rattle will return.

 

Personally I would not let an independent garage do the work unless they really know what they are doing. The latest repair kit involves changing both the camshaft and crankshaft sprockets so it is essential that both camshaft and crankshaft are "locked" so that the valve timing is not changed. If the timing is changed then the engine will likely go bang very quickly. I spoke to several independent garages at the time and both claimed NEVER to have changed a camchain on a 1.2 TSI. I think they really meant they didn't want the job because they didn't know how to do it.  The main dealer who changed mine said their workshop had done loads - he knew immediately what the problem was when I took it in to be inspected and lodged the warranty claim with Skoda about 2 hours after I dropped the car off for inspection! Having said that the main dealer who I used prior to that consistently denied there was a problem whilst it was under warranty and it was "not a known problem".  Just quote the TPI to any dealer who takes that line - they cannot deny the issue.  

 

I think the dealers have access to special tool from Skoda to do this job. I'm not 100% sure but I think the generalised tool they use to lock an engine when changing a cambelt is not suitable. Anyway these engines are camchain so they don't normally require a locking tool!

 

So I would be inclined to take it to a main dealer. They know what needs to be done, have access to any special tools they might need and will have to warrant their work.

 

The cost of the job on mine done by a main dealer was £700 (including 20% VAT). That includes 6 hours of labour.

 

But I only actually paid a fraction of that. You may get lucky with a "goodwill" payment from Skoda if the car is out of warranty. Mine was out of warranty for over 2 years, but it had always been serviced by a main dealer. I think you will be lucky to get any contribution if the car has been serviced outside the dealer network.

 

Best of luck. I would get it fixed without delay - camchain failures can frequently wreck the motor, and if that happens the cost of replacing just the chain will look very cheap!

 

EDIT: I forgot to say that the cost does not include the cost of any oil. I'm not sure if they have to drop the sump to get to the crankshaft sprocket, in which case an oil change is obviously also required. In my case I asked them to do an oil/filter change whilst it was in the workshop (it was due an oil change the following month anyway) so I paid 100% the cost of the oil. This was included in the total invoice so I can't tell whether they would have had to fill up with fresh oil as part of the cam chain job. You will have to ask the workshop to clarify this point as it may add to the costs I quoted.

Edited by Minimoke
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Thanks a lot Minimoke.

 

Looks like from yours and Xman`s experience, the issue is really disturbing and sounds like I will feel uncomfortable every time I turn the key.

 

I am checking now the latest kit you have mentioned, here in Poland from some website and it is worth around 90-100 quid when I want to buy it myself. And I have some small car mechanic that they can do it for me, however I am a little scared that they are a little old-fashioned, if they will be able to take care of the change properly. They will ask for around 100-150 pounds to fit these I suppose, so it will come for 250 quid.

 

When I asked the authorized service, they mentioned some amount around 500 pounds with parts and the work and I am not sure if they will use the latest kit.

 

I am thinking it is better to  change all than sitting on kneedles, sounds like a time bomb. Now, it is time to decide with whom to change it. It is a lot of money to do it in Skoda authorized service but the thing is that I will not be able to get anything from Skoda if I do not change it there.

 

Why on earth wouldn't Skoda use the latest repair kit? The earlier kits are known to fail again which is precisely why they issued a kit revision!

 

You will require more parts than just the kit alone. For example there is special grease for the camshaft and sealent for the cam cover etc. Total for all parts and materials for changing mine by a dealer was £136 excluding 20% VAT.

 

£100 to fit it????? Crikey, I know labour rates in Poland are lower than here in the UK but that works out at £16 per hour! As I posted in another answer it requires 6 hours labour.  

 

I'm not normally a huge fan of dealers, but in this case (and for peace of mind)  I would get a dealer to do it for the reasons I gave in an earlier post.

 

Whoever you choose my advice is get it done without delay. A rattling cam chain on these engines is indeed a potential timebomb.

Edited by Minimoke
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By the way just to add, the service intervals are so long, I was surprised when I saw in the book that next service should be at 86000 km when I bought the car. Looks like the previous owner did not pass the limit of 13-14 k miles between the 3 servicing he had. I cannot even imagine how the oil may look like after 20k miles.

Which is why I always use the fixed service regime on any make of car I own. In my opinion you cant beat a regular oil/filter change every 12 months at least.

 

Cam chains are normally reliable and can do a lot of miles in normal service, but dirty oil is their enemy.

Edited by Minimoke
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Why on earth wouldn't Skoda use the latest repair kit? The earlier kits are known to fail again which is precisely why they issued a kit revision!

 

You will require more parts than just the kit alone. For example there is special grease for the camshaft and sealent for the cam cover etc. Total for all parts and materials for changing mine by a dealer was £136 excluding 20% VAT.

 

£100 to fit it????? Crikey, I know labour rates in Poland are lower than here in the UK but that works out at £16 per hour! As I posted in another answer it requires 6 hours labour.  

 

I'm not normally a huge fan of dealers, but in this case (and for peace of mind)  I would get a dealer to do it for the reasons I gave in an earlier post.

 

Whoever you choose my advice is get it done without delay. A rattling cam chain on these engines is indeed a potential timebomb.

 

A car after warranty, I do not think they will care if my problem is solved or not, with dealers, my experience they always try to fob you, maybe I am exaggerating but I did not have good experience until now.

 

My service is very small and local one, they do their job good and do not charge much but from what you said above, I see that better is to go for the dealer for this. I will try to do next month and give update how it worked.

 

Thanks a lot again, really appreciated!

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Thanks minimoke understood clearly

I am so disappointed that we have to pay for VW group s mistake - and it is a huge mistake which causes car to be immobile.

My next car wont be from VW group for sure, i suppose i ll go for Toyota. They are not also perfect but at least they seem to admit their mistakes and make recall for important issues

Edited by istannbullu34
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  • 4 weeks later...

Hello everyone,

 

I have just contacted one dealer here and I was told that the kit which is fit my car is 03F198158A -  which I also had very bad comments about their service department, I tried to push them but they insisted that the kit 03F198158B is not fit with mine (10/2011 built) - now you can understand why I hate dealers but for this case I have to go for them

 

I will try the second dealer soon, I am not able to leave the car due to some emergency I have these weeks.

 

I was able to make a video about the sound when I turn the key, the sound is not so strong but it is audible from 7th second to 8th.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKUM6AsCDxg&feature=youtu.be

 

And popped the hood, tractor sound :)  I am supposing this is normal for these engines

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHrXcDxbv8E&feature=youtu.be

Edited by istannbullu34
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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi guys. With all the web trawling and reading about this camchain problem I'm still not 100% sure my 2013 TSI is affected or not? The only date code I can find stamped is on the timing chain cover, ??/06/13.

I tried to make out the cover part No. to see if it's the same as updated replacement in TPI but hard to fully make out the number.

Also my engine No. is different range to those mentioned in the TPI. Mine is CBZBE33537 going by the V5C. Couldn't find it stamped on the engine, any ideas where it is?

Edited by Gonzini
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A 2013 engine is very likely to be ok, unless you've gone 100k+ miles and you've been going regularly over 10k between oil changes.

Certainly skoda will not look at it under warranty unless the chain is obviously rattling. 2013+ models are not subject to any tpi/recall afaik.

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Cheers xman, i couldn't work out when the problem had been supposedly fixed. I thought i did read that early 2013 engines might of been affected but i don't know now. I did check on a Skoda website somewhere about any recalls with the car using the VIN number, nothing came up.

When i questioned about this problem with the dealer before buying the car they basically denied any knowledge about the issue. You can read them like a book!!
Im going to get it serviced i think in Dec as it done quite a few miles after the last service last year and I've put about 1.5K on it since I've had it. It at about 12.5K at the mo.

I'd prefer yearly servicing over the variable which they seem to of put it on now, its another 9K on the info display before the next service.... That would be 2 years i guess.

Got a few engine noises to investigate, I'll post some examples up when i have something. Hopefully someone will know whats causing them.

Its a great car i really like it so far after a few months now. I've come from a 1.8T VW Bora, I've not been left wanting anything from the car which is good.

The jury is still out on the reliability side not that it has played up yet. (other than the cold start knocking and other weird noises it makes at times....)

Edited by Gonzini
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  • 2 weeks later...

A quick update on my faulty timing chain, i found out that my engine code (CBZA) was effected with the timing chain issue as mentioned in Skodas TPI report, so i rang skoda UK and booked the car in for a check up at the local skoda garage.Upon hearing the noise rattle/chatter from the engine it was evident that the timing chain had been stretched. Skoda then messaged HQ in Czech republic with copies of mileage, service history and the diagnosis.

 

i than received a call from the service team telling me that Skoda is willing to cover me 100% on parts and 70% on labour, i was very pleased with the response and said yes to the offer  :)

 

so i had to pay a total of £220.00 including £99  for diagnostic fees which couldn't be wavered, considering a timing chain replacement from dealers would have cost me £600 to 800.

 

Even though my car was over a year out of warranty and had been serviced twice from independent garages, they still decided to cover majority of it under goodwill

 

so if anyone has the start up chain rattle or the  intermittent chatter which can be heard when the car is at idle, check your engine code against the TPI report and if they match pick up that phone and get down to the dealer right away or else you will be risking engine failure

 

thanks to @briskodian for the advice.

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  • 1 month later...

I can't find my original thread on this subject when my trouble started so here is potted history.

Yeti 1.2 Tsi S petrol. 2010. Bought by me Mar 2014 with 20,108 miles on clock with full makers service history. (From a large Scottish Main Dealer -Used Approved)

 

Sep 2015 Major service at 31555 miles at my nearest English main dealer in Devon now I was home again.....(no mention of possible timing chain problems)

 

May 2016 at 35,842 miles Car suddenly became very difficult/not possible to start.  RAC taken to main dealer ....investigation found timing out by 2 teeth.....Replaced timing adjuster, chains and guides.....run and stated all ok.

 At this stage I found this website documenting this known fault (by VAG) and was able to quote the Technical Product Information (2026513/5 issued by VW 1 Oct 2012) to the main dealer who had of course denied any problems or knowledge of having received the TPI.  Then Skoda UK offered to pay most of bill but said I would have to make up the rest.  NO said I.....component unfit for purpose....Outcome was dealer footed the remainder of bill......cost to me zero.   BUT BUT -

 

35,916 car stopped....RAC without turning engine over diagnosed failure of piston No2....took to main dealer....found engine wrecked with many bits in sump.....they persuaded Skoda Uk that this was caused by original timing chain failure.  New up to date engine fitted at zero cost to me.

 

A very big thanks to all those who have made us aware of these VW denied problems and enabled us to get it all fixed.  To those who have paid for the new engines/timing chains, revisit your dealer with the evidence (TPI quoted above) and fight again.

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I complained for two years about the worsening rattle in our Octavia 1.2 tsi, while still in warranty. No joy/stonewalled/told it was normal/tpi test showed in spec (by 2mm!!!)

In the end after the warranty finished, I ended up paying £371 to change the chain.

That and a failed ignition lead/coil (known issue again) that cost me over £180 (with 50% contribution). Now I have an ongoing issue with fabia steering rods (see seperate thread), lost faith in Skoda.

Edited by xman
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I am in the process of buying an October 2012 Fabia MC 1.2 TSI with the engine code of CBZAC31190 and can't work out from the post where it was manufactured or if its affected by the chain 'stretch' issue - can someone help please?

 

Best wishes,

 

John

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I am in the process of buying an October 2012 Fabia MC 1.2 TSI with the engine code of CBZAC31190 and can't work out from the post where it was manufactured or if its affected by the chain 'stretch' issue - can someone help please?

 

Best wishes,

 

John

 

What I see from what people said here, it is not just about the chain but the design error, the cars that are produced in 2012 have updated chain however, the latest kit 03F198158B should be fitted to it in order to be sure that she will not give you any trouble.

 

I went for the second dealer today which has good comments for their service department, they said that they know the problem (of course :) ) and they can fit the kit xman mentioned - 03F198158B. They asked for 355 GBP plus oil and oil filter. I told them that first  I want to leave the car so they can check how stretched it is and diagnose the issue and asked them if they can contact Skoda to see if they will participate in cost. They said as the warranty is out since last February - they suppose Skoda will not accept - I told them the warranty is out but the customer should not be the one to pay for the mistake of VW Group.

 

If Skoda  says no to them, I will contact personally with Skoda and cry out. It would be good to get something at least around 50% for their own mistake. Leaving the car next Wednesday.

Edited by istannbullu34
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I complained for two years about the worsening rattle in our Octavia 1.2 tsi, while still in warranty. No joy/stonewalled/told it was normal/tpi test showed in spec (by 2mm!!!)

In the end after the warranty finished, I ended up paying £371 to change the chain.

That and a failed ignition lead/coil (known issue again) that cost me over £180 (with 50% contribution). Now I have an ongoing issue with fabia steering rods (see seperate thread), lost faith in Skoda.

 

That is sad!! 

 

And you know what, I remember the old timer cars with classic engines (without turbo, supercharger, dpf or whatever) were maybe not performing well but they were with little less issues. When I check for cars  right now - if I would like to change, I can hardly find something, mostly there are a lot of common faults discussed on the internet which are expensive to fix - especially when your budget is limited.

Edited by istannbullu34
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Only £355 to fit a new timing chain????? I'd grab that offer with both hands. I would expect a main dealer to charge nearly £500 plus VAT for labour alone. Its a non trivial job to change the chain.

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Its only 3.5 hours book time. Mine was done in half a day. The chain kit costs £71 plus vat full retail. Only other cost is gasket sealant, oil, filter and some coolant.

So no its not such a big job and anything much more than the £371 I was charged would be a ripoff.

And dont lose sight of the fact that vw/skoda should really be doing these foc, I remember way back in 2004, the fabia brochure had the printed words "maintainance free camchain" for the recently introduced htp engine.

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Agreed with xman, i can afford that amount but why to pay for wv group s mistake? they did not recall these cars it doesnt matter that there were a lot of them affected and after warranty is out, they want to avoid all costs related to that

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