Driving in the snow in fancy 4x4

[Alvarado]

I live in West Yorkshire and there are plenty of hills around.  The tarmac roads had been gritted but we had a light snowfall this morning (including hail).  It was just a covering but it fell so fast in some places there was snow (rather than slush) on the road.  I was only on a short trip but got badly caught out driving both up and down hills.  I've only had the car, a 1.6 petrol manual 4x4 a few weeks, so don't know what to expect.

 

1 - Driving downhill - very slowly, first or second gear, got lots of juddering when on the brakes and did not feel comfortably in control of the car, though managed to keep a straight track (just as well as there were cars coming up the other way)

2 - Driving uphill, I had to give up going up an (admittedly reasonably steep) hill and wait. I was making very little forward progress, couldn't control the vehicle and was getting a strong whiff of something (clutch? brakes?  Odd as I wasn't on either? Is this some kind of management system kicking in?)  A couple of other 2 wheel drive cars also parked up.  Waited a few minutes and in the mean time six or seven cars and vans successfully went up - a mix of smaller 2 wheel drive cars, a standard issue 'white van' and a couple of 4 wheel drive vehicles.   I tried again and got up there but only after the snow had been turned to slush by the passing of other vehicles.  I really didn't fancy driving up the last few hundred metres (no sign that anyone else had made it) so abandoned the car.  At least I was able to do so safely.

 

To be honest I was a bit disappointed, it was not really any better than the Golf (front wheel drive) it replaced.  Traction has been great in the car up until now (for example in the rain or where there is no standing snow) but today was the first time it's been driven on standing snow (albeit just a covering).  

 

I was not using winter tyres but it didn't look like the cars passing me had them either.  Bearing in mind the vehicles passing me I wondered whether the fancy traction distribution/management thing was doing any good.  I turned it off but I it didn't seem to make any difference to my ability to get up the hill.  

 

Is it me?  Is it the car?  What (genuinely) are other people's experiences?

[nafeun]

Turn esp off?

[LS108]

How wide is your tyres?

 

However with summer tyres on that is normal behavior on snow/ice. The only way is to switch traction control off and apply lots of gas to make wheels spin and try to keep car straight. But that won't help much if incline is steep. In any case AWD car with summer tyres cannot outperform 2WD car with winter tyres - as many tests confirmed.

Edited 2 March, 2015 by LS108

[psycholist]

My 2WD car has cruised through the bit of snow we've had this winter without missing a beat apart from one single lane road to the top of a mountain I tried just for fun. The only other vehicle to make it further based on the tyre tracks was a full on 4WD with very off road looking tyres which got up by locking the diffs and putting 2 wheels in the ditch at one side for grip. This was all with Avon Ice Touring Winter tyres. The right tyres make a much bigger difference than 4WD in these conditions, especially when you talk about the car sliding around while going downhill. Summer tyres are already underperforming when the temperature is under 7 degrees C even in the dry, so winter tyres are not just for snow either.

[Phil-E]

You still need winter tyres.

 

4 x 0 is still 0!

 

Phil

[Huskoda]

You still need winter tyres.

 

4 x 0 is still 0!

 

Phil

This.

 

Winter tyres are far more important that 4 wheel drive in the snow.

[Phil-E]

Yup! A FWD car with good winters on would outperform a 4WD with summers on.

 

Always makes me laugh when you see big 4x4s bombing around too... yes you might have had more traction off the line and be able to get moving quicker... but don't forget you can't defy physics when trying to stop 2.5+ tonnes! lol

 

Phil

[Smudgers]

Yep - agree with above - its the tyres

 

Earlier this year had a bit of snow - slight hill on way to work - me in my Front wheel drive Superb with boot loaded with tools drove around a Freelander, X5 and Subaru. Feeling very pleased with myself even thought about offering them a tow - but was late for work so didn't

[superbpete]

Most of the cars have all weather tyres, its the width of the tyre not just the diameter most are 17s or 18s, the best winter tyres are on 16s and much thinner in width therefore they cut through the snow as well as a winter tread pattern.

[psycholist]

The width of the tyre matters very little compared to the rubber used and the tread pattern (Winter tyres have lots of narrow slits in the rubber to create square edges to bite into snow and ice as the tyre tread flexes at the point it contacts the ground, the bigger slits in the tread pattern are still more for surface water than for digging in snow).

 

The tyre pressure determines what area of the tyre contacts the ground regardless of tyre width. A narrow tyre at the same pressure will have a longer flat spot where it contacts the ground but the area in contact will be the same. If you have 30 PSI in the tyre and it carries a load of 800 lbs, the contact patch is 800/30 = 26.7 square inches (Ignoring the stiffness of the tyre carcass) regardless of width, so no improved digging effect unless you change the tyre pressure. At 35 PSI this will drop to 22.8 square inches.

 

My winter tyres are on 16" wheels because they're the smallest that clear my front calipers and I had a set spare from my last car. My Summer tyres are on 17" wheels because that's what came with the car though for comfort, durability and fuel economy swapping to 16" for the summer would be cheaper too...

[lowedb]

I have winters on my 4x4 and they work really well. They are the same size as the standard ones on an Elegance and therefore quite wide.  In January we had a significant snowfall one morning and many vehicles couldn't make progress but my 4x4 only twitched once and never failed to make progress.

[Joakim]

I have four of these     (Nokian Hakkapeliitta 8) in dimension 205/55-16" on my 4x4 Superb and I haven't got stuck once this winter!

 

I have been driving on snow and ice for more than 25 winters and would recommend a narrow tire for winter use.

 

Best regards

Joakim from Sweden

[JakeBlade]

It's all about the sipes (studded and Nordic winter tyres excepted, of course).

Edited 2 March, 2015 by JakeBlade

[StuartTunstall]

I was impressed with mine http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/342787-4-x-4-snow-and-steep-drive-think-i-am-impressed/

 

My drive is quite steep, around 40 degrees to start

[Laurie61]

Its not just about the equipment, there is a 'knack' to driving on low friction surfaces and in many area's of the UK people don't get a lot of practice. In many ways it's similar to off-roading and requires anticipation and measured use of car controls.  :sun:

[Pesmog]

Although not a Superb, this well known snow test from Auto Express on youtube pretty much explains it for AWD cars. It would have been nice if they had also shown the effect of switching on and off the electronic Traction control.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

Edited 4 March, 2015 by Pesmog

[Alvarado]

Thank you for these interesting posts, for the most part characterised by people saying 'you need winter tyres'.  I understand winter tyres are more important than 4x4 (my understanding of the 'pecking order', held even before I recently bought the car, is 4WD on winter tyres performs best; then 2WD on winter tyres; 4WD on standard tyres; followed by 2WD on standard tyres).

 

I am also pretty confident winter tyres would have helped me in my circumstances the other day, maybe I could even have left the Subarus/Land Rovers behind (as in the case above).  However that kind of weather doesn't happen all that often where I live (OK West Yorkshire is not Surrey but it's not Scotland or Sweden either).  There are days in the winter here when the weather is mild (the next 7 days daytime temps are forecast to be above 7 degrees) and at such times winter tyres would presumably give longer stopping distances and therefore perform worse than the standard tyres currently fitted.  So it's not a clear cut case for me, and furthermore, as well as the cost (£600/Euros 900 minimum) I have nowhere to store them (so more cost) and the chore of switching wheels/tyres twice a year does not appeal - I could end up with summer tyres still on in November and winters coming off in May, thus reducing any benefit that winter tyres might have further.

 

It all depends on specific conditions and I haven't made my mind up on tyres yet.  But in the meantime, it is interesting that only Stuart and Laurie highlighted that I might have expected better.  Stuart looking at your photos I don't think I can compare your drive with the hill I was trying to get up which even on a good day does not allow the climber beyond 2nd gear, and without momentum even 1st is hard to get out of.  I can't post the image (that's a newby for you) but a photo of the hill is here:  http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2215751

 

The lack of surprise amongst posters that a 4WD car can't climb a hill in the snow suggests I may be expecting too much of the car (at least with its current tyres on).  Laurie might be onto something with his 'knacks' to driving in the snow (perhaps an advanced drivers course beckons) but based on the replies above I'll not be rushing to the dealership to get the car looked at yet - though I might have to lower my expectations just a little.

Edited 4 March, 2015 by Alvarado

[Gazdok]

Alvarado,

The cost of a bang can be much more than the set of winter tyres. You loose your no claims discount and pay the excess.

 

If you have a car for longer you do not have the extra cost of winter tyres as you will use your summer tyres for almost twice the usual time as they sit in the garage over winter. You can get decent used wheels on Ebay. Go for a smaller size - like 16" - and that will save a lot and is equally safe.

Storage should not cost you anything and a 4 wheel tyre change at home is done in 1 hour.

[Huskoda]

If you haven't got anywhere to store the, perhaps a better compromise for you would be some all seasons like Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons or Vredestein Quadracs. The initial outlay may seem a lot, but as above, you can't wear them both out at once and smaller winters can be cheaper that standard summers, plus if they even save you from one small bump will pay for themselves.

I'm also in West Yorkshire and this winter there have been almost no days where I've been driving at over 7 degrees. They're not just for snow, they're excellent in all wintry conditions, especially heavy rain. Don't let the EU rating label fool you, all winter tyres do badly because the test is done at 20 degrees, so is all but irrelevant for anything bearing the mountain and snowflake logo.

They also don't magically stop working above 7 degrees but cross over with the average summer tyre up to about 20 degrees.

[Yorkshire]

That's what I have on my Octavia 4x4, Vredestein Quatrac 3 all season tyres; slush, snow and getting a caravan on and off muddy fields with no problem, traction control turned off. M&S and three peak mountain snowflake symbols on.

[psycholist]

I went for the Avons specifically because the 'B' rated wet weather grip is more useful a lot more often in Ireland than their full on snow grip. There appear to be no 'A' rated winter tyres for wet weather either, so it's as good as is available. Winter tyres will wear faster in warm weather, but don't automatically get dangerous if it's over 7 degrees. The all season tyres will never be as good as summer tyres in summer or winter tyres in winter, but if you're not doing the mileage to justify it and want one set of tyres to do you the whole year they'll get you a lot further in snow than what you have.

Edited 4 March, 2015 by psycholist

[JakeBlade]

I went for the Avons specifically because the 'B' rated wet weather grip is more useful a lot more often in Ireland than their full on snow grip. There appear to be no 'A' rated winter tyres for wet weather either, so it's as good as is available. Winter tyres will wear faster in warm weather, but don't automatically get dangerous if it's over 7 degrees. The all season tyres will never be as good as summer tyres in summer or winter tyres in winter, but if you're not doing the mileage to justify it and want one set of tyres to do you the whole year they'll get you a lot further in snow than what you have.

As stated previously, you need to ignore pretty much the whole EU label for winter tyres, as they are labelled based on their performance in non-Winter conditions. About the only thing that is useful is the tyre noise rating.