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Out of interest, how much weight would have to be removed to notice a real difference in MPG and performance? Removing the rear ballast weights, spare wheel and changing for a smaller race battery would save.. 40-50kg? Obviously I have no plans to do this just for that reason, but I was curious! Been tempted for ages to remove the ballast weights to see the difference (if any) in handling and been wanting to buy a smaller battery for a while now too so I can fit a decent air intake.

Cheers!

Mike

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It is not just about removing 25 kg from the extreme rear of the car,

it changes the balance, and you get more grip at the front wheels ie Traction.

Spare wheel out 19kg.

Then maybe just the battery in the boot, or the smaller battery in the front.

 

Not just lighter, but easier on the Brakes.

 

Saving on fuel used at NSL's.  very little,

 less weight climbing hills. is a saving, but for up you need to go down again.

 

*Skoda seem to think the New Fabia is better for being as much as 60kg lighter,

yet they put rear Ballast weights on a vRS in 2010 and not on a Monte Carlo Diesel,

or a VW Polo GTI (battery in boot) or Seat Ibiza Cupra.*

 

...............

Obviously the vRS is no Race Car, but you might go tracking it.

The much more powerful BTCC cars are obviously considered to be Handicapped by 45 kg being added.

http://btcc.net/2014/10/28/regulation-changes-for-btcc-2015

Edited by goneoffSKi
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Would significantly lightening the rear end without changing the spring rates not be a detriment to the handling?

I can see issues with high speed handling and lift off oversteer.

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You have to consider that.

 

But then the Longer & Heavier Estate was given the different Springs, to cope with carrying loads,

yet the Max Revenue Weights are the same.

Less the 5kg.

 

So check what spring Rates are on the Polo & Seat & A1 Twincharger cars, all really with heavier Kerb Weights than the Fabia when the Weights and Spare Wheel are Removed.

 

So if you are fitting Lowering Springs, maybe uprated Dampers & ARBs, to the Fabias & Removing the rear Weights,

Maybe moving the Battery to the Boot, or a lighter one in the Engine Compartment,

& fitting 215/40 R 17 tyres the same as were standard on the Sister Cars, 

You are already getting the Suspension where it could have been if Skoda did it right from the Factory.

 

Rather than adding 25kg, to make the Hatch 5kg heavier than the Estate, and the same VED, as the Estate and the Seat.

But showing the Slowest Max Speed, 0-100kmh, and the worst economy of the 5 vehicles.

 

Even on Standard Springs, Dampers & tyres, they handle just fine in the UK roads with the 25kg off the rear Crash Bar.

Proof is in the trying it.

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Would significantly lightening the rear end without changing the spring rates not be a detriment to the handling?

I can see issues with high speed handling and lift off oversteer.

Do you notice the difference between a full tank of fuel and an almost empty tank?

Does having 2 rear seat passengers result in those characteristics?

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Do the VW or Seat have handling issues without rear Ballast Weights,

or a Fabia Monte Carlo Diesel Remapped to 135 ps & on 205/40 R17's?

 

Does anyone put 25kg weights on the rear crash bar of a Monte Carlo Diesel?

 

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Nice that he likes the same jumper style 5 years on.

He should have maybe looked in the boot of the Polo GTI in 2010,

& noticed the Lack of Space, & a Battery in the Boot, & an optional Spare wheel or not.

(Plenty of space in the Engine compartment in 2010 with the 1.4 TSI / DSG)

 

** If anyone is thinking about a new 2015 Polo GTI 1.8tsi and watching Roadtests & the extra BHP interest you and the 320NM of Torque they mention, that is the Manual,

With the 1.8TSI with DSG the Torque is 250 NM same as the 1.4TSI Polo GTI 2010-2014

Edited by goneoffSKi
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A liter of fuel is approximately a kilo so full tank to empty could potentially be a difference of 40-45kg without getting to scientific about things and weights off crash bar and spear wheel out could make up to around 80kg maybe more between a standard car fully fueled and modified on empty, I'm trying no exaggerate with the numbers but 80kg is around the weight of average bloke, so would you want to pick your mate up and throw him or stop him if he ran at you? The maths is there, whether you feel it or not depends on how sensitive you are to feeling what your car dose underneath you.

I have weights removed and no worries of oversteer, I drive it hard and it's not a dangerous problem like some would have you believe.

Edited by wrightcnc2009
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I think actually that 2 litres of petrol weigh 1.5 kg near enough ish...

But that might be wrong, must weight 5 litres later on.

 

(Like 1 litre of Engine oil weighing 857 grams)

 

Lighter than Water so they float on top.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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If you wish to achieve real gains in economy or performance then you'll need to remove a serious amount of weight, I.e. more than the weight of a small passenger. It seems pointless in the real world of speed cameras and traffic congestion. What will you achieve -safely- that Skoda engineers couldn't? I am sure they didn't put weights on the rear to slow it down.

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Why did they put rear weights on, making its kerb Weight Greater than the Estate,

Reducing front end grip, & making it the slowest on paper of the 5 sister cars.

(it was the Cheapest Obviously, and was as light as the 3 Door Seat or VW without the Weights, 

and would have been the same VED & Co2 as the VW & Audi.)

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^ What he said you need to remove a lot of weight to make a significant difference in performance

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Do you.  

Performance as far as in efficiency is always being chased by car manufacturers in components,

and they give Kerb / Unladen Weights, and make big on this.

(How much do you think it cost to Design & Maunufacture the Weights to add to the Skoda Fabia vRS,

rather than the correct rear springs and put the battery in the boot same as VW did.?)

 

Skoda think the As Much as 60 KG lighter on the New Fabia is a big Deal, and they are not all lighter.

The Success Ballast in BTCC was from 7kg - 45kg till this Season.

Do you need to add a lot to the very rear most corner to make the front go light, if the Spring Rates do not compensate.

 

Stronger springs on the rear of the estate, Stance & Front Grip Altered.

Add weight to rear corner of the hatch, you accelerate and the rear drops the front goes light.

(On a BMW say or Rear wheel drive car, Accelerate, Rear Drops (Squats) more traction more action.)

 

But lets forget the Hatch vs Estate, (unless the weights are off the rear of the hatch)

The vRS Hatch vs the 5 Door Polo GTI,  or even better the vRS Estate vs the 5 Door Polo GTI is maybe more interesting

Edited by goneoffSKi
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Really Green Technology from VAG as they introduced Euro5 Emission Cars.

The Hunt for Lightness in all the Motor Industry Work Wide.

Engine Efficiency,

Lighter Components, Small Capacity Fuel Tanks, less paint coatings, no Wheel Well Inners, lighter interior materials,

no spare wheels as standard etc etc??

 

Did these same weights get used for any other purpose on other Volkswagen Group Vehicles.

How much do you think these cost to Design, Test & Manufacture & install ?

How many did they produce?

Edited by goneoffSKi
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BTCC cars weigh 975kgs iirc and the ballast makes them only a little slower , not at all relevant for road use or even occasional track use

 

You can play around with weight on this , to see the effect on 1/4 mile times

 

http://www.torquestats.com/modified/index.php?pid=calculator&action=calculate_times&drive=FWD&bhp=200&weight=1300&submit=Calculate

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Better still you can just play around with the real cars and see the difference,

Remove weights, do the timings, before after etc  because plenty owners do.

you had 2 did you not, did you never try.

 

The Calculator is fine, but then it does not envisage the added weight at the Rear Most point of a FWD car.

 

VW Official Figures are always interesting.

Shame that the Tester never put a 5 Door Polo GTI vs a 5 Door Cooper S,  or 3 door vs 3 door.

 

................

Re BCTT.  Success Balance is a Handicap on Handling & Brakes worked harder etc.

And they are not added to the extremity of the car.

 *Fulcrum Forces / Levers, if you remember that at School with a See Saw made of a Ruler and weights moved up the length.*

Minimum weights are.

1085 kg FWD H Pattern Gearbox

1115 kg  FWD SEquential Gearbox

1115 kg RWD H Pattern Gearbox,   so really light.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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I didnt try no , because its a Fabia VRS, hardly a race car !

 

Overall weight matters less than weight distribution

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Exactly.

 Weight Distribution is very very important.

 

So why no Rear Weights on a Mk2 Fabia Diesel Automatic or Manual.

Front Heavy.

&

Then put the Battery in the Boot of a 3 Door & 5 Door VW Polo GTI, & do not put Weights on the REar Crash Bar.

Plus give Weights Officially so a Tow Bar can be fitted, and Braked & Unbraked Trailers Towed.

 

VORSPRUNGDURCH TECHNIK.

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Do you notice the difference between a full tank of fuel and an almost empty tank?

Does having 2 rear seat passengers result in those characteristics?

Removing 25kg off the very rear end of a car is totally different to removing 25l/25kg of fuel that is a lot closer to the middle of the car.

 

The weight and forces involved are multiplied by the distance away from the cars centre of gravity.

 

Also I was talking about high speed driving and dynamic changes and weight transfer not just overall mass reduction

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Wakey,

what do you reckon the reason is for adding weights to the rear crash bar of the vRS taking the given Kerb Weight in 2010 to 

1,243kg with a Spare Wheel in.

Making the Car 9 3/4" shorter than the Estate 5kg Heavier than the Estate Version.

 

No weights on a Skoda Fabia Monte Carlo 1.6TDI CR Hatch, because they are chasing lightness.

 

No weights on the Seat Ibiza Cupra or Polo GTI (only 3 door Seat & VW at Launch) in 2009-2010 or the Audi A1 in 2011.

And they are on wider Tyres and have Lower Emissions and shown as quicker.

*Later both Manufacturer had to publish new Kerb Weights, because the Official Ones were incorrect, as in less than true weight, then in 2013 Skoda changed the Kerb Weights Published for the Skoda vRS Hatch & Estate.*

 

Was it just that the Skoda Engineers could not be bothered to Tune the Handling of the Hatch, Set up as on the 

Seat & VW,

or was it that VW instructed that the Cheapest Model could not be lighter or quicker or better handling than the 4 other cars. or than its more expensive Estate Version ?

 

?

How much do you reckon the Production of 25KG of weights cost in Materials & Design/ testing/ Manufacturing?

 

Weights on and you can still c0c-k a wheel.

Edited by goneoffSKi
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With the weather being nice and days longer I might be bothered to remove the rear ballasts.

Int the meantime I put light'ish weight rims with RS'Rs on them when I go to a track and I take rear seats, spare wheel and such like (47kgs if memory serves). And the most important thing, take a hearty dump before you set off for a track day ;).

 

More seriously, the rear crash bar weights were put there to prevent rear tyre hop during very hard cornering due to harmonic vibrations. Rear tyres oscillating between grip and slide caused harmonics and exaggerated the effect. Ballast was supposedly put there to cure it. I did not know anything about oversteer with or without ballast.

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Just thought I'd add my 2 pennorth here. I whipped off my 25 Kg of excess baggage a couple of months ago - & before anybody says it - no, I didn't leave the Missus at home. The only difference I noticed was improved traction, especially in wet conditions.

Now I'm no techy, or a rally driver, but I do know when a car "feels" right.

I've had a H&R RARB (purhased off this site) gathering dust in my garage for several months, & I've just had it fitted.

 

The difference is amazing - you can now go into a corner at speed as it's as if it's on rails, instead of wallowing around like a Sherman tank. It handles more like the 1275 Cooper S I used to have in the 70's.

Best mod so far. 

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'Zwingen',  i think is the term,

but someone with some German might know if that is the correct term.

Or maybe 'pytel pisku' in CZ, someone maybe knows.

 

On sundays BTCC live they discussed the Success Ballast, and i know they are race cars, with more power and less weight.

They are Lighter & More Powerful.

Yet the drivers that had the Handicap weights which are now up to 63kg max in a Carbon Box where a Passenger Seat would be,

were on about the difference to braking and acceleration out of corners. 

ie Handling, Speed , Performance,  the added weight having an adverse effect, very noticably so.

 

? Does anyone want a set of 25kg weights for free to put on the rear of their Fabia Monte Carlo or even a VW Polo to see what improvement to handling, braking, safety & economy it makes?

Edited by goneoffSKi
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