Octavia Mk III vRS Estate Sound System Upgrade

[scottpcs]

Having exhausted all options regarding the Amundsen and standard speaker setup on my MY15 Octavia Mk III vRS Estate (see this thread http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/363592-my15-vrs-amundsen-volume-tone-suppression/) I’ve decided that the only resolution is to upgrade the sound system itself to something more substantial.

 

Knowing nothing about sound systems except what I perceive to sound good or not, I paid a visit to my local car audio dealer for a chat and recommendation. My only stipulations were that I want no wires cutting or splicing as I want to be able to return the car to stock without leaving a trace and making a custom sub enclosure for that ‘standard fit’ look.  So far, the following have been recommended:

1. Hertz ES250 10” sub with custom enclosure in the boot, Hertz ESK265 component speakers in the front and Hertz HCP 4 amp. Installed cost £988.00

 

1. As above + Audison Bit Ten Sound Processor. Installed cost £1367.00

 

1. Hertz ES250 10” sub with MDF (standard) enclosure in the boot, Hertz ESK265 component speakers in the front, Hertz HCP 4 amp and Audison Bit Ten Sound Processor. Installed cost £1087.00

As an initial set of recommendations and prices, I would like to get any thoughts on the above and whether if any of it is worth the cost?

 

Considering I’m planning on keeping the car for a good 4 – 5 years, I’m thinking it’s a long time to ‘put up’ with the standard setup but at the same time, it’s more money than I thought it was going to cost!

 

The custom sub enclosure by the way is to be made of fibreglass with a carpeted finish to match the boot lining and will fit in one of the cubby holes. Obviously the MDF enclosure would have to be placed somewhere in the boot itself which is not what I’m after.

[l4wrence]

The amp looks a little underpowered to me based on those speakers. A large chunk of the cost is labour so fitting two amps or a more powerfull one should be mostly the cost difference of the hardware. Did they say if they were including any soundproofing? I would recommend they at least do the door cards. Good sound proofing around speakers can make a massive difference - more so than putting in a better quality speaker (disregarding OEM speakers of course)!

 

Personally I would go with the custom sub enclosure and sound processor. Consider adding sound proofing and a separate mono amp for the sub or a more powerful 4 channel. It really depends on what you can afford and if your keeping it you'll want the best you can put in it now. I've been through a number of audio upgrades on my own car and it would have certainly been cheeper had I have just gone for what I have now originally. Plus I have spent an obscene amount of money on my car audio but that's why I've still got the car after 16 years!

 

Audio systems were easier to install back then. New cars seem to have a lot of electronics even on the battery. Make sure they know what they are doing with the amp install as it can mess with the stop/start system. Refer to this thread: http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/354520-fitting-ampsub-has-broken-startstop/

[scottpcs]

I wouldn't know what amp would be powerful enough but I'd say anything should be better than the standard output from the head unit of 4 x 20W. Also, I'm 'only' looking for a big improvement in sound quality and a volume boost to overcome the stupid volume limitation on the Amundsen. My days of sound-offs are long behind me and all I want these days is a nice balanced sound.

 

I don't think soundproofing is included in the quotes as there's no mention of it and I'm sure he said at the time that it was an option when we were discussing the make-up of the system.

 

The start/stop interference concerns me somewhat after reading that thread you mentioned but it is something I'd make sure I was covered on before any install was to commence. Certainly modern cars are much more difficult to work on with all the electronic wizardry they have on them these days but all that means now for us is higher labour costs.

 

To be honest, it's not really about affordability but more what I'm prepared to spend and it certainly doesn't amount to an 'obscene' amount of money. At the end of the day, I just want a system that will provide a nice, balanced sound and give me a reasonable degree of volume which the standard head unit just (artificially) can't. Obviously I'm at a disadvantage in not knowing much about audio system components and what all the figures mean but at the same time I'm finding it hard to swallow that it'll cost me £1k+ to get what I'm looking for, especially when Skoda can offer the Canton upgrade for a mere £400 (although the quality of this system is a marmite subject it seems.)

 

I was gearing myself up to take option 1 before the dealer started talking up the sound processor which then inflated the overall cost to nearly £1400. Trouble is, I really don't know how much of a difference the amp itself will make in terms of both quality and volume of sound before I start considering a sound processor on top of that. I can only assume that the speakers, amp and sub that's been recommended will do the job - I was advised against spending any money on the rear speakers as the sound stage needs to be in the front, not the back.

 

Any further thoughts are much appreciated!

[l4wrence]

Correct about rear speakers - they interfere with the sound stage. From what it sounds like you'll be happy with just the sub, amp and speakers you mentioned in your first post. As long as the audio place sets up the gains correctly on the amp to avoid clipping.

 

Save the dosh on the processor and invest in some sound deadening. Car audio isn't cheap and even if you try and cut the system down further it's the labour cost that isn't giving you the value. That's why I'd suggest if a shop is installing then go for the best components you can afford (Hertz are considered a good quality brand).

 

You have another option on the sub that doesn't have to be installed in the boot. You can chose a smaller under seat 8" sub. It wont drop as low or be as punchy as a 10" in the boot though. Something like the Alpine SWE-1200 http://www.alpine.co.uk/p/Products/powered-subwoofer-boxes45/swe-1200

 

You could then use a digital amp under the other seat to drive the front components, then that removes any need to install in the boot (and associated labour costs). This will give you a balanced sound at reasonable volume (enough to listen to at motorway speeds). That sort of system wont be pushed though but from your reply sounds like it's all you need and will be cheaper.

[scottpcs]

Thanks for the advice and for a first install I think you're right in that speakers, amp and sub will give me what I'm looking for.

I'm close to doing a deal with my local car audio dealer now which includes the custom sub enclosure. To be honest, if I'm spending hundreds of £££ on a professionally installed setup then I don't think it makes sense to cut too many corners so I might as well do it properly without spending silly money.

The recommended speakers and sub look fine to me and I know the Audison Bit Ten could be added later if I really want it so the only decision now is what amp to get.

I've spent the last couple of days researching what I can and I've come across the Focal FPP4100 amp as a competitor to the HCP4 from Hertz. The Focal is a little dearer than the Hertz but the power output per channel (RMS) at 4 ohms is 90w (240w bridged for the sub) vs 65w (190w bridged for the sub) on the Hertz.

Do you think I'm looking a bit too much into this and my dealer's recommendation will be fine or is there some merit in the different amps available?

I should point out by the way that the recommended speakers are Hertz ESK165 not 265 as I'd mistakenly put in my opening post and only just realised.

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Edited 23 July, 2015 by scottpcs

[l4wrence]

From what you've said you want from the system I'd say you are better off sticking with what has been suggested by the audio shop. Also it depends on the shop as to what makes they stock - do they deal in Focal gear? Also, the Focal amp seems to be an old model and the signal to noise ratio isn't great. When I looked at what specs I could find they were quoting 75w @ 4ohms.

 

Have another word with them and ask if you wanted a little more power from the amp what they would supply and what the extra expense will be. The HCP 4 is a class A/B amp which tend to have a large footprint and run hot. If you went for class D (digital) they are smaller and run cooler maybe giving you more options on installation location. The Hertz HCP 4D seems to be the next step up but price seems to jump up a fair bit.

 

If I was going for a new audio install I would go digital with the amps. The three in my car are all A/B (rather old now) and require cooling fans in a boot build and they are big. In fact I still have my original amp installed from 16 years ago - a Rockford Fosgate Power 800a4 and that alone cost me £800! At least prices have come down a bit since then

 

Also forgot to add if you do go for a more powerful amp then you'll definately want sound deadening in the doors. Nothing worse than rattling trim! I had SWMBO Aygo car audio upgraded by a specialist a few years ago. The Aygo doors are so shallow we could only go for some bottom of the range £50 Alpine speakers in the doors. However, I got them to deaden the doors and foot wells and I have to say those speakers sound great. Audio fitter said they wouldn't sound half as good without the sound deadening but Aygos do have paper thin doors! We also had a 200w digital amp fitted under the passenger seat and the Alpine sub I posted above under the drivers seat. She didn't want anything in the boot (it's tiny, but I would have had a sub in the boot). However, it's good enough to have loud when on the motorway and get reasonable volume with full range sound. Although the sub is putting out the most it can without distorting.

Edited 24 July, 2015 by l4wrence

[scottpcs]

The shop sells gear from all the major manufacturers, including Focal and Hertz so supply wouldn't be a problem. I'll contact them today to ask about more power and / or looking to accommodate any future requirements where the amp is concerned and see what they say.

 

Price of the HCP4 I've been quoted as £249 with the HCP4D being £100 more at £349 and the next one up, the HCP5D is the same difference again at £449 so yes, there's a step up in price with each one but it's finding that best bang for buck combo. The Focal FPP 4100 is listed as £299 for comparison.

 

I know the 4D is a more powerful amp but you also mention about heat with the A/B amps. This hasn't been mentioned before as a potential problem and it's not something I'd thought about. I wouldn't have thought that the physical size of the amp would be a major issue in an estate car like mine. My only concern is that the speakers are rated at 100w RMS and the sub at 250w yet the HCP4 'only' puts out 65w and 190w respectively - sounds a bit underpowered to me (as you mentioned yourself in your first reply.) The HCP 4D on the other hand is much closer to the speaker ratings at 85w and 290w respectively, plus it also has the size and heat advantages too but you do pay that bit more for an increase in power.

 

The doors sound pretty substantial to me as they give that nice 'clunk' when they're shut rather than a hollow-sounding 'twang' that some cheaper cars do, not sure if this has any relevance to their sound-containing qualities though. I haven't discussed sound-deadening with the shop and I've no idea what cost this would entail but again, I can ask the question before I book the car in with them.

Edited 24 July, 2015 by scottpcs

[l4wrence]

Would love to see the results if you get it installed - keep us updated

[scottpcs]

Don't worry, I'm definitely getting it installed! It's just a case of getting the right amp now - think I might just push the boat out that bit further and opt for the HCP 4D over the HCP 4. On paper at least, this amp should get the best out of the speakers and sub whilst still retaining enough power and versatility for a future install. There might be an exchange of opinion on the A/B type amp versus D in terms of sound reproduction but this can be subjective from what I've read.

 

Once it's all worked out and the install is complete, I'll post some pictures along with a breakdown of the details. No doubt there's a few fellow Briskodians who are thinking of an install like this but there's little I can find on this forum with any info or details. Complaints about the standard sound setup, however, I can shake a stick at!!

[scottpcs]

Quick update - car booked in for the install, agreed on a deal this afternoon! We've gone for:

 

Hertz ESK165 component speakers in the front

Hertz ES250 10" Sub in a custom-made fibre-glass enclosure in the boot

Hertz HCP 4D Amp

 

All the above, including labour, time and install materials we agreed on at £1000 all in which I don't think is too bad, especially considering they want the car for 3 days to do the install.

 

I did moot the question about soundproofing when asking about the effect of an upgrade in power but that if it would incur a significant further cost then we'd be back to square one. I think by this point we were both just hankering after a deal that would suit us both and as he had agreed to upgrade me to the HCP 4D effectively for free, I don't think we could've gone any further without starting again with the budget.

Edited 24 July, 2015 by scottpcs

[l4wrence]

Sounds like a good deal there. Sound deadening isn't cheap on either materials or labour, and it's a messy install job. You could DIY if you really wanted to save money or it can be added afterwards by the shop if you need it.

 

Car audio can be a slippery slope. You get used to the system and want a bit more etc. Think you've made the right choice on the HCP 4D. It'll certainly be way ahead compared to a car with Canton.

Edited 24 July, 2015 by l4wrence

[ryan-re]

The bit 10 would have given you much much more control over your system. This is likely why they shop suggested it. Remember, your oem headunit will not have much in the way of audio adjustment.

 

As mentioned above deadening is not cheap and is very time consuming. In the Octavia you'd need to drill out the rivets holding the inner door trim in place when have to re-rivet it once the outer skin is done. Then fit it to the inner skin and door card with the addition of a noise isolator between door and door card. Do this x4 and you are talking of a huge amount of time and materials.

 

Id say thats a good price overall, you should be pleased with it if installed correctly. I'd suggest 4awg cable at then very minimum, 0awg would be ideal though. Overkill is always best

[scottpcs]

I've no doubt that the Audison would make an appreciable difference but then so would the extra cost involved.

The owner of the shop did say that the Audison and sound deadening can always be added later if I wanted it so I've worked on this basis. To be honest, I just couldn't bring myself to spend well north of £1000 on my first audio install, especially as I've no experience of an aftermarket system and I think for what we've agreed on, it's a good starting point.

I know the shop that's doing the install is very reputable and have been in business for many years. Even the local car dealerships use him, including the Skoda dealer where I bought my car from so he must know what he's doing, at least I hope so!

Although the Amundsen head unit only has bass, mid and treble controls, I'm hoping that the amp and speakers between them will give a somewhat more balanced sound stage, even without a DSP.

The problem with the stock setup is the terrible cutting of frequencies, particularly bass, at higher volumes and creating an ear-splitting shrill tone as a consequence. It also has severe volume limiting at anything higher than half volume and the low-mid range is lacking somewhat - certainly I can't cure it with any of the controls on the head unit.

We'll see what the finished install sounds like but surely spending even a modest amount of money on it like I have should yield a very noticeable improvement.

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[l4wrence]

When is the install booked in for? Would be interested to see a picture of the sub and enclosure.

[scottpcs]

Booked in Monday 10th August for 3 days. Pictures to follow once it's all done

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[Priezti]

Let me know if you want any build pictures

[scottpcs]

Sure thing! I have to say the install is spot on and it sounds amazing! Might be coming back for the sound processor but I'll leave that till I've recovered from what this little project cost...!

I didn't realise that Dynamat sound deadening was included in the project cost, that was a nice little surprise when I got the worksheet from Jeff.

Just taken a couple of pics myself but if you have some start to finish ones then please feel free to post them.

Guys, I never mentioned the shop where I got it all done - R.A.M. Mobile in Wakefield. I can heartily recommend Jeff and his team and I'll be more than happy to write him a little testimonial in the coming days.

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[Priezti]

Just messaged you. Although I've floated about on the forums for a while I've never registered until now so don't think I can upload images

[scottpcs]

Ok, here's the install pics:

 

[l4wrence]

That's nice and neat Scott. You sound rather impressed. I guess you need to sell after market audio to the masses as no one really knows how things can sound in a car. I myself have sepnt enough to know. Seems like you're already happy with the results. Let us know

[scottpcs]

I can't tell you just how impressed I am with the results, both aesthetically and audibly. I'm not sure what I was expecting but the end result has certainly exceeded that.

This being my first install, I can't believe I didn't do something like this years ago, it's simply transformed the listening experience in my opinion although it's not been cheap to achieve.

The most impressive thing is you wouldn't know that the car had been in pieces, no visible wires or signs of tampering anywhere. The only obvious signs that anything is different about the car is the presence of the amp and sub like you see in the pictures, otherwise you honestly wouldn't know anything was different... until you turn the stereo on.

The sound difference itself is immediately noticeable. Depending on the song choice (Michael Jackson's Billie Jean and AC/DC's Back In Black were the demo tracks of choice by my installer, along with a couple of dance tracks for good measure) the bass kick from the sub is deep and, literally, moving. The mids and highs from the front components fill in the rest of the range and are much warmer sounding than the OEM speakers.

I will say that having an external amp and better speakers makes the output of the head unit sound much much better but at the end of the day there's only so much you can do with a badly tuned, factory output from the head unit and you can still hear the shrill treble in places along with missing mids in certain songs. I guess I'm talking myself into the Audison Bit Ten here at some point to complete the sound stage but really, I am very impressed already by what's been installed.

If I were speccing a new car up now, having heard what an aftermarket system can sound like, I don't think I'd bother with a factory upgrade no matter how good they purport it to be. Quite honestly, if I had the choice of a £500 Canton system upgrade or spending double that and having what I've got now, there'd be no hesitation in choosing the latter.

I should also add that I've not experienced any issues with the start/stop system or any other system on the car for that matter. I guess the guy who had problems in this regard just dropped on an installer who wasn't experienced in such modern wizardry. I had a few warnings on my car upon turning the ignition but all warnings then disappeared the moment the car moved. Such things are to be expected considering the battery had been disconnected for the install but this aside, any worries about malfunctioning electrical systems on the car appear to be unfounded.

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Edited 12 August, 2015 by scottpcs

[l4wrence]

Great news, enjoy it!

[peter312]

Please may I ask, are your rear door speakers still connected or were they disconnected in favour of the subwoofer?

Many thanks

[ryan-re]

The rear speakers can be run aswell as a sub. The oem setup makes them enhance the midbass up front due to the positioning. Nothing todo with the low frequencies a sub plays

[BATVANVRS]

Wow this is amazing, that install looks really neat & no doubt that the sound is much better...do you still have the same setup in your vehicle currently?

I also have a mk3 with the Amundsen standard speaker setup, which definitely is poor on the sound side of things, definitely some form of sound clipping or sound protection

circuit in-bedded to protect etc...

This is something I definitely want to do to my mk3 & this thread here has been so helpful, props to you mate for actually proceeding & taking the leap to getting this done

Just out of interest, did the remote amp wire & any other wires come from the glovebox where the CD player is installed?