PAS problem

[fireballxl5]

Water gets inside the capot and ends near the pump...

Not to sure what you mean by capot, do you mean it gets inside the PAS oil container?

[dm222]

Not to sure what you mean by capot, do you mean it gets inside the PAS oil container?

 

Sorry, capot = bonnet

Not inside, outside the PAS pump and container

It has an opening near the headlight and water flows through there and wets the pump. Bad car design along with poor repair from an accident has this result... I'm still trying to figure out if this is a normal situation or not, but anyway the pump seems to me like it's designed to be water resistent... 

 

Sorry for the deviation from the topic.

Edited 28 July, 2015 by dm222

[TMB]

but anyway the pump seems to me like it's designed to be water resistent...

 

They are sealed against water ingress but it has been known for water to get into the electronics occasionally. You should be OK with a new pump though.

 

This is what the pumps look like inside. They are just sealed with silicone...

 

 

[rum4mo]

Seriously, I've never seen a system that uses the electric motor as anything more than a force multiplier.

 

Well if I'm wrong I will go back into hiding!  Though, if I am right, and the steering effort is directly connected to an electric motor in the rack or column, then what is the great saviour for when that system fails as I'd expect the motor/gearing to stop any direct driver input managing to move the rack/column?

[KenONeill]

Well if I'm wrong I will go back into hiding!  Though, if I am right, and the steering effort is directly connected to an electric motor in the rack or column, then what is the great saviour for when that system fails as I'd expect the motor/gearing to stop any direct driver input managing to move the rack/column?

With the note that the personal account refers to a plain hydraulic system:-

 

I lost the aux drive on my car (Octy Elegance, with 205/55R16s), and the steering was hugely heavy needing 2 arms and force from shoulders rather than 1 hand from wrist/elbow depending on how much lock was being applied, but the steering still worked. I can't see any reason why a loss of power to an electric motor should actually lock the steering unless the connection is worm and pinion.

 

Does anyone have an exploded view of a pure electric PAS with good enough detail to let us identify the types of any drive gears?

[dm222]

 

They are sealed against water ingress but it has been known for water to get into the electronics occasionally. You should be OK with a new pump though.

 

This is what the pumps look like inside. They are just sealed with silicone...

 

 

 

Nice, seems so fragile, no wonder they break a lot

[sepulchrave]

With the note that the personal account refers to a plain hydraulic system:-

 

I lost the aux drive on my car (Octy Elegance, with 205/55R16s), and the steering was hugely heavy needing 2 arms and force from shoulders rather than 1 hand from wrist/elbow depending on how much lock was being applied, but the steering still worked. I can't see any reason why a loss of power to an electric motor should actually lock the steering unless the connection is worm and pinion.

 

Does anyone have an exploded view of a pure electric PAS with good enough detail to let us identify the types of any drive gears?

 

http://eb-cat.ds-navi.co.jp/enu/jtekt/tech/eb/catalog/img/pdf/cats1001ex.pdf

[KenONeill]

http://eb-cat.ds-navi.co.jp/enu/jtekt/tech/eb/catalog/img/pdf/cats1001ex.pdf

That's not as clear as I'd hoped, but I have the impression that there is no mechanical link from steering wheel to rack? (that begs another question; why they even bother to have a lower steering column?)

[sepulchrave]

That's not as clear as I'd hoped, but I have the impression that there is no mechanical link from steering wheel to rack? (that begs another question; why they even bother to have a lower steering column?)

 

It's pretty unequivocal frankly Ken, there are two distinct systems, motorised column and motorised rack, both are shown, neither system is hydraulic in any way and both systems rely on the presence of a completely manual steering system using torque sensing to trigger the electric assistance. In the event of assistance failure the steering would still be manually operable. Steering by wire is possible but would not be implemented on safety grounds, auto-park systems use these types of PAS due to the highly proportional nature of the electrical control system.

[dm222]

Is it possible to convert an electric-hidraulic PAS to hidraulic?

[rum4mo]

Is it possible to convert an electric-hidraulic PAS to hidraulic?

 

I think that the easy answer is, "nothing is impossible"!  One thing that I have picked up on is, when Audi changed its old school hydraulic power steering to electric assisted steering on the A4 B8 change to B8.5, initially there were a lot of complaints about lack of "feel/feedback" - but either Audi improved its S/W or people just got used to it.

[fireballxl5]

Just a quick update, over the past couple of days the PAS has been behaving itself. although I have not covered many miles, most of the miles I have covered has been around town, so touch wood, the little beasty is now doing what it says on the tin, running well and steering Huraah!

Lets just hope this is the end of the steering issue, but tomorrow is another day

[dm222]

Just a quick update, over the past couple of days the PAS has been behaving itself. although I have not covered many miles, most of the miles I have covered has been around town, so touch wood, the little beasty is now doing what it says on the tin, running well and steering Huraah!

Lets just hope this is the end of the steering issue, but tomorrow is another day

 

Hope it's fixed for good!

[dm222]

I take the oportunity to ask. The pump has 3 supports, can a broken support cause premature failure?

[Breezy_Pete]

Well it's not going to make it last longer than usual.

It will vibrate more, there will be less to resist counter-rotation of the case every time the pump speed changes, and the wiring is more likely to be damaged because of these extra movements.

Surely the bracket can't be so expensive that it's not worth replacement?

[dm222]

Well it's not going to make it last longer than usual.

It will vibrate more, there will be less to resist counter-rotation of the case every time the pump speed changes, and the wiring is more likely to be damaged because of these extra movements.

Surely the bracket can't be so expensive that it's not worth replacement?

 

I replaced the second time I changed the pump but it wasn't replaced the first time because I didnt knew and the garage that changed it didn't said anything... The previous pumps made more noise, I guess it was because of that.

Edited 30 July, 2015 by dm222

[fireballxl5]

Now getting at wits end, went for a drive over to Canterbury and about two thirds of the way there the PAS failed again, was changing down to take a 90 degree bend and the steering gave up, carried on to the next village and pulled over and as I came to a stop, it came back on and stayed on for the rest of the journey.

On the return journey the steering went off again, this time I noticed this happened when going over a bump at about 45mph, again pulled up a few miles up the road and just as I came to a standstill the PAS came back on again.

Seems to me that there might be some kind of short going on as the problem occurs when changing down or bumps in the road create vibration, when the pump works it works well, but this brings me to the steering angle sensor and the symptoms that can be caused if this is failing as this is the last port of call, to investigate.

[dm222]

Now getting at wits end, went for a drive over to Canterbury and about two thirds of the way there the PAS failed again, was changing down to take a 90 degree bend and the steering gave up, carried on to the next village and pulled over and as I came to a stop, it came back on and stayed on for the rest of the journey.

On the return journey the steering went off again, this time I noticed this happened when going over a bump at about 45mph, again pulled up a few miles up the road and just as I came to a standstill the PAS came back on again.

Seems to me that there might be some kind of short going on as the problem occurs when changing down or bumps in the road create vibration, when the pump works it works well, but this brings me to the steering angle sensor and the symptoms that can be caused if this is failing as this is the last port of call, to investigate.

 

When the PAS fails does your steering gets very heavy (so much that you almost can't turn the steering parking even with the two hands) or it just gets more heavy?

Edited 30 July, 2015 by dm222

[fireballxl5]

When the PAS fails does your steering gets very heavy (so much that you almost can't turn the steering parking even with the two hands) or it just gets more heavy?

Yes the steering gets heavier the slower your going, its still perfectly drivable at speed, but a right pain when low speed cornering or parking.

[dm222]

Yes the steering gets heavier the slower your going, its still perfectly drivable at speed, but a right pain when low speed cornering or parking.

 

Usually when the G250 sensor fails, the steering gets more heavy but it's still drivable even at low speeds, although with more difficulty.

When the problem is the pump the steering gets so heavy you almost cannot turn the steering when the car is stopped or at low speeds even with the two hands.

[fireballxl5]

Usually when the G250 sensor fails, the steering gets more heavy but it's still drivable even at low speeds, although with more difficulty.

When the problem is the pump the steering gets so heavy you almost cannot turn the steering when the car is stopped or at low speeds even with the two hands.

Quite used to cars with no power steering, as back in the day many cars had no power steering, just ended up with biceps the size of Arnies lol. But on a more serious note, I'm only prepared to throw so much at this car, so I'm now reaching the point of no return and as this is the first Skoda I have owned, its starting to look like the last, ok so I bought it with some crash damage on it, which was a cheap and easy repair, then had issues with the engine misfiring and that was a head off job and replace two exhaust valves and now to top it off theres this problem with the PAS and even if I can get this sorted out, I'm starting to wonder whats next.

[dm222]

Quite used to cars with no power steering, as back in the day many cars had no power steering, just ended up with biceps the size of Arnies lol. But on a more serious note, I'm only prepared to throw so much at this car, so I'm now reaching the point of no return and as this is the first Skoda I have owned, its starting to look like the last, ok so I bought it with some crash damage on it, which was a cheap and easy repair, then had issues with the engine misfiring and that was a head off job and replace two exhaust valves and now to top it off theres this problem with the PAS and even if I can get this sorted out, I'm starting to wonder whats next.

 

Actually recent cars get more heavy when power steering fails than a car without power steering.

When you replaced the pump it worked for how many time?

Edited 30 July, 2015 by dm222

[fireballxl5]

Actually recent cars get more heavy when power steering fails than a car without power steering.

When you replaced the pump it worked for how many time?

PAS was working ok but engine was running rough, sorted the engine out and no sooner had I done that the PAS started playing up.

[dm222]

PAS was working ok but engine was running rough, sorted the engine out and no sooner had I done that the PAS started playing up.

 

This PAS system is so bad that I'm considering changing my car too...

[fireballxl5]

Right seems like I've nailed the problem, but still got to sort it out, had a nagging feeling that this was a electrical problem due to the nature of the way the PAS has been cutting in and out, whilst braking, going down the gears or going over the odd bump in the road.

Got one of the lads to sit in the car and asked him to keep an eye on the Pass light whilst the car was running, no sooner had I reached into the engine bay and grabbed the wiring that runs down to the pump and gave it a wiggle that the lad called out that the PAS warning light had come on, so wiggled the wiring a little more and the light went out, repeated this a few times, with the same results, on, off, on off, looks like there are at least three earth wires heading down to the PAS pump area, one thinner one which maybe go's to the washer pump, then theres a intermediate one which seemed to throw the fault more so, then theres the heavier earth.

It now looks like I'm heading in the right direction, just got to figure out if the fault is at the plug terminals to the pump, or its a earthing issue, so its off with the bumper to access that part of the loom.