Judder Judder...

[storm blue 2]

Hi,

Experiencing some violent steering wheel judder when braking at speeds from 50-70 to a complete stop.

The judder does not always happen and only seems to happen toward the end of my journey to work (20mile A road).

I am thinking that the brake discs are warped? I know from a quick search on the forum that a number of other issues can cause this such as; console bush or ball joint etc.

It's going into the garage tomorrow for hopefully a cost no more than a set of discs and pads.

Very annoying as I asked the garage to change the discs and pads 2000 miles ago but they only changed the pads, stating that the discs still had life in them..

[SuperTurbo]

Most likely a warped disc, even if the discs were changed when the pads were it's likely you'd have warped the new discs instead, it's just one of those things that happens.

[mrgf]

I usually replace the discs as part of pad replacement now anyway as they are so inexpensive if you do the labour yourself. Its cheaper to replace the lot then to go to dealership/Kwik-bodge, etc and have just the pads to replace. The discs usually only have two small retaining screws as they are then held on along with the wheels, by the wheel bolts. Usually just a case of swivelling the caliber up, out of the way, removing the discs and re-fitting new ones.

 

If you purchase an inexpensive brake piston reset clamp too, it'll still be cheaper and makes the job of fitting the pads a doddle.

[MattGreen]

I would ensure your calipers are nice a lubricated and free to slide on the slider pins. Seized calipers will cause this symptom.

The phrase warped disc is a pet hate of mine.

Firstly how much heat do you think it would take to physically bend/warp a big chunk of steel like that? (Your brake fluid would boil first)

Secondly if your disc was warped it would judder all the time. Because the disc would be physically warped.

My opinion is that either your pads are overheating due to sticking calipers causing a them to basically melt a little. The judder is rapid loss of friction as the pad surface is compromised... or a possible poor surface to your old disk combined with new pads prevented them from bedding in properly resulting in similar symptoms to the above. Next time it happens pull over as soon as you can where safe to do so and see if your brakes seem super hot.Make sure you don't burn yourself.

Either way you will most likely need new disks and pads, but get the calipers checked too. If they are the cause you will only ruin the new set too.

If your brakes don't feel hot at all maybe check the other areas you mentioned.

Hope this helps, it's late and I ramble.

Edited 16 September, 2015 by MattGreen

[fabiamk2SE]

Go for a drive.. Feel the wheel.

If ones nice and cool and the other is hot.. Tadaa

[2ndskoda]

The phrase warped disc is a pet hate of mine.

Firstly how much heat do you think it would take to physically bend/warp a big chunk of steel like that? (Your brake fluid would boil first)

Secondly if your disc was warped it would judder all the time. Because the disc would be physically warped.

Either way you will most likely need new disks and pads, but get the calipers checked too. If they are the cause you will only ruin the new set too.

If your brakes don't feel hot at all maybe check the other areas you mentioned.

Hope this helps, it's late and I ramble.

 

MattGreen

I'm not trying to score points here - but in the trade, running brake disks in the lathe to true them up is quite a common occurance. Some do have run out problems. Several years ago a certain make had recurring problems with disk run out - if these were under warranty, the first remedial move was to place on a lathe to true them up. Believe me you do not have to generate super hot temperatures to cause disk runout. I will however admit that this is not so common nowadays.

 

I quote - "Secondly if your disc was warped it would judder all the time. Because the disc would be physically warped". - not so - with the brakes released the piston would be pushed back into the caliper commensurate with the disk high point during rotation. When brake is reapplied they will once again try to follow both the high and low points, hence the judder.

 

As original poster has wisely decided, it is best to investigate all contributory points re this problem.

 

Please note (in view of one comment made) if one caliper is lazy compared to the other - you will get a very noticeable steering swing to one side or the other when the brake is applied, BUT, not necessarily any judder.

[MattGreen]

Fair enough. I see what you're saying.

I meant that if the disk was warped it would judder all the time (under braking) as opposed to starting to judder after a period of driving as described by the op. The fact that it only happens towards the end of the journey means that it's most likely not actually warped.

I think we all agree though. Basically check everything...

Edited 17 September, 2015 by MattGreen

[storm blue 2]

Well on Tuesday I took it into my local trusted garage, who have looked after the car for the past 4 years.

The verdict was that all of the suspension bushes are in order. The brakes were checked and the suspicion is that there is a very slight warp in one of the discs.

I am wondering whether it only gets worse toward the end of my journey because that is where there are more roundabouts etc, hence more frequent braking and thus heat?

The garage I take the car to are never wanting to charge for uneccessary work etc. I had asked them to fit new discs/pads but they said they'd be reluctant to given the discs and pads have a load of meat on them, and because any warp seems to be very very minor.

If I can live with the judder until it's due it's MOT etc then I will. The vibration isn't noticeable most of the time, hence I can probably live with it until more funds are avaliable to get them done.

[snacr63]

I had the same problem on my fabia and it got gradually worse until I could put up with it no more and shelled out for a full set of discs and pads all round.  The used ones showed little signs of wear and the pads were still good.  All went well for a couple of weeks and then the problem began to reappear.  So I began to investigate what other reasons could cause these symptoms and came up with the following article.

 

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths

 

I do not brake heavily so it appears the cause of the judder is a build up of friction material on the discs as mentioned in the article. 

 

I decided to test their theory and did a number of high speed stops to burn off the friction material.........and guess what...........it worked!

 

I have now started to use my brakes more forcefully and the brake judder has now gone.  Perhaps this may be your cause?

[storm blue 2]

Well, it's certainly worth a shot before I spend money on parts and take a few hours from a weekend changing the discs/pads. My worry is that mine gets worse the hotter the pads are, so we shall see...

[dawpooldad]

Hi guys 

 

all the previous posts are like deja vu to me 'cos I too am suffering a similar problem to storm blue 2 although I would call it pulsation rather than shudder!.

 

I've had 3, yes 3 new sets of pads and discs and when new, the problem goes away only to return a few months later.

 

Each time they've been done the garage, be it the main dealer or Kwik fit and even myself, are convinced that it's either me (driving style) or faulty components. I've never had this problem on any other car that I've owned so I've discounted my driving style (Captain slow if you must know!)

 

So, I'm awaiting the arrival of a DTi gauge set up so that I can check the run out (if their is any!) and try to pin down the source of the problem.

 

Now, anybody know the what the maximum run out is allowed on the discs in metric?

 

Grateful for any help

 

Rgds

 

dawpooldad

[storm blue 2]

Dawpooldad,

Have you had the Console bush checked on the wishbone?

I am also Experiencing some clunking when going over bumps or sometimes just deviations in the road. Also, the front end sometimes feels very 'absent' in cornering with any enthusiasm.

I may change the discs and pads myself and if it still persists get the console bushes changed.

Very annoying and have no confidence under heavy braking.

Edited 21 September, 2015 by storm blue 2

[dawpooldad]

Storm Blue 2,

 

Hi

 

where , what and why are console bushes?

 

You've hit a nerve here as I do sometimes here a clunk when turning and going over some minor bumps!

 

Did this cure the problem?

 

Rgds

 

dawpooldad

[storm blue 2]

The console bush is toward the back of the front wishbone. Google it and you will recognise it instantly if you look under your car.

I have spoken to another garage who I am booking the car into, Unit18 in Milton Keynes. They know the fabia inside out and there are many threads on Briskoda about their work.

Apparently the console bush is a weak point and affects many of the smaller VAG range. It can produce symptoms of a warped disk, apparently.

Unit18 supply and fit an upgraded part with a lifetime warranty. I am booking it in soon so will let you know if it cures the problem.

I dont think I have a warped disc as I can't feel any vibration back through the brake pedal....

[dawpooldad]

Hi,

 

have now checked the discs with aforementioned DTi gauge and I'm very puzzled.

 

Both discs check out at less than 0.05mm variation which is about 2 thou in english money?

 

I checked the discs on both sides and at various positions in the swept area and the 0.05 reading was taken about half an inch in from the disc edge on the near side (which was the largest variation I could find!) 

 

I was expecting that I would get wildly varying readings suggesting that yet another set of pads and discs was required, in the main the gauge hardly moved at all.  I don't think that the "pulsation" lies with the discs and pads.

 

I have also tried doing some of the high speed brake applications as previously suggested but that hasn't worked either.  So, I think that Ill have to have the suspension bushes checked out.  I'm due a service shortly so I'll have to get the main dealer to check it out and steel myself for the outcome.

 

It's a pity that Unit 18 are so far away!!

 

Best Regards

 

Dawpooldad

[storm blue 2]

So, the problem has been solved.

I was certain that it was the console bushes. Took the car to Unit 18 on Thursday.

The first thing I was told was that my car does not have the console arrangement, it has the never wishbone arrangement. That was me wrong!

The issue was the old discs were lipped to such a degree that the newer brake pad was having trouble being 'seated' properly against the disc when the brakes were applied.

Unit 18 were very honest and stated that with some very harsh braking I may be able to rectify it. However I rely on my car every day and thus got new pads/discs fitted.

Sorted.