Emission Controversy

[Raptor]

Well, went on the Skoda UK website today, put in my VIN and received confirmation that my car is affected by the software cheating. They advise that the car is safe to drive etc. That was never in doubt but I, like others, was advised of the improved fuel efficient engine and emission levels. Do we know if the "fix" will result in a fall in fuel efficiency? Is it possible that this is simply higher levels of Nitrous Oxide levels? Does anyone have a clear understanding of the issues relating to this piece of software designed to cheat the emission test?

[Juhagpl]

Nobody! Even not VAG!

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[lichfielddriver]

whose gonna go first?

 

HMG have already said the cars affected will not have the road tax increased if the actual emissions are higher than declared but id like to see VW fined 10 years difference in road tax per car to teach em to be honest

 

mines £30 a year, my previous car was £230 a year, £200 x 10  = £2000 x 1 million cars....... wow, cop for that

 

PLUS, if my mpg tumbles I dont want the car, have I a case with trading standards? 

[Jaytip]

whose gonna go first?

HMG have already said the cars affected will not have the road tax increased if the actual emissions are higher than declared but id like to see VW fined 10 years difference in road tax per car to teach em to be honest

mines £30 a year, my previous car was £230 a year, £200 x 10 = £2000 x 1 million cars....... wow, cop for that

PLUS, if my mpg tumbles I dont want the car, have I a case with trading standards?

Why would you want to see them fined like that? Yes they cheated but if it doesn't affect my wallet, I couldn't care less if they are fined or not.

Let's be honest, however much they lose in fines and lawsuits, they are going to try and recoup that money somewhere.

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[CombatWombat]

I have only a vague understanding of the situation.

 

I think people are rounding on diesels about all tailpipe emissions, but the VAG situation is really about just one of the many that are measured.

 

Some of the EA189's emission equipment (in this case a 'lean NOX trap' in the exhaust, I think ???) has been coded to only work when the car is on an emission-reading dyno. That is not as difficult as it sounds as engine ECUs measure so much data. It could be, say, that the car is revving at 2000 rpm but the steering wheel doesn't move at all, or it could be that the car has sat at exactly 25C for 24 hours (a test pre-requisite?), in which case the car 'knows' it's being measured.

 

For the lean NOX trap to be purged (it chemically stores the NOX) it needs the engine to over-fuel it, (I suspect a bit like a DPF), this then reduces overall mpg and can change driveability in the short term. (In this situation NOX = any of many nitrogen/oxygen gases - all v.v. unhealthy).

 

The fix is maybe just a software change, or perhaps the fitted NOX trap is undersize as well (as it wasn't doing much, some tech. speculated) and will need replacing??? NOX isn't measured in an MOT btw.

 

But obviously it's not a scandal about particulates (soot) or EC quoted mpgs as such, it's about fudging the NOX figures. From an owners viewpoint the cars mpg may be lower with the NOX trap being purged when required (so VED is now wrong?).

 

The NOX levels permitted in the US are lower than in Europe, so it's harder to meet their targets levels, and VW were trying so very hard to persuade the yanks to buy their diesel cars as they attempt world domination, so mpg/drivability/cost was very critical.

 

Also, as diesel performance (bhp per llitre) increases so does combustion chamber temperature. Higher temperatures mean more NOX created.

 

The higher powered VAG EU6 diesels have now gone to a Urea (Adblue) injection system to get around this, but that's extra weight and cost/ complexity, but they do pass the test, apparently.

 

HTH

 

Someone else who knows more will be along soon, no doubt.

Edited 9 October, 2015 by CombatWombat

[Danny 57]

I have just posted this in the AE189 thread but thought it was suited in this thread also.

 

I have tried to take a step back.

The only thing that is affected was the fake test when the cars ecu was programmed to know that it was being tested and therefore reduced the various elements to kid the out come.

As far as I know at all other times it worked as normal hence the car mags claimed and actual CO2 varied by between 20-40% over the last at least three years that I remember Auto Express quoting in their tests.

Now is it that element that may be changed which may officially increase your V5 form and therefore your yearly road. I do not think the government will do that because of what is involved as it is far easier to fine the car makers which at this time is only VW!

[supersnail]

All the other manufacturers seem to be very quiet about this. How long before others are implicated?

[lichfielddriver]

Why would you want to see them fined like that? Yes they cheated but if it doesn't affect my wallet, I couldn't care less if they are fined or not.

Let's be honest, however much they lose in fines and lawsuits, they are going to try and recoup that money somewhere.

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If I get caught cheating HMG I get the full force of law, why not VW?

[james0james]

Its given other manufacturers time to review their own situation,the motor trade is very secretive  .

 

The emission increase,will not be road taxed at a higher band as per our goverment,you believe that !,maybe for a temporary period but not till the end of time.

 

Maybe a freedom of information (FOI) reguest should be sent to the government.

 

Many London borough's are in the process of charging  residents/business parking permits according to the vehicles emission's http://www.airqualitynews.com/2015/01/27/emissions-link-to-parking-permits-approved-by-hackney/

 

The main problem for most drivers is the vehicles MPG, ok the manufacturers state a figure as a guide and as this is the only guide available we have to believe them,so any significant increase than stated MPG could be a cause for compensation.

 

The case continues  .

[cnc]

 

 

The higher powered VAG EU6 diesels have now gone to a Urea (Adblue) injection system to get around this, but that's extra weight and cost/ complexity, but they do pass the test, apparently.

 

The US spec VW's have been using Adblue for years - and they still failed the test.

 

This video is from 2012, shows how to refill a Passat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h9hWlvg6sM

 

VW US has now withdrawn their certification to sell diesels in 2016 so maybe there is more to it than we know

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-withdraws-request-to-certify-2016-model-year-vehicles-1444243809

Edited 11 October, 2015 by cnc

[james0james]

ADDBLUE  I thought that was one of those naughty freeview channels.

 

 

[peterposh]

All they'll do is delete the line of software code that allowed them to fiddle

[timbear]

My 2012 Superb Estate is also affected.

 

You can get all het up about the fact that they lied and cheated, that when the fix is installed the MPG may change slightly (performance shouldn't, apparently),You know what though? I'm not that fussed, even if the MPG drops a couple of points after the fix it's still a bloody good car.

 

That's what matters to me.

 

[CombatWombat]

A US link here about performance and mpg change  with the 'cheat mode' on and off:-

 

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20151009/COPY/310099941/vw-diesels-with-operative-emissions-gear-are-slower-and-thirstier

 

8% is mentioned.

 

 

 

I read (somewhere???) that the US cars had the SCR kit 'turned down' a bit so the cars would run to the US 10,000m service interval before needing a urea top up. That way the owners never had to get involved with that chore.

Edited 11 October, 2015 by CombatWombat

[StuartTunstall]

My 2012 Superb Estate is also affected.

 

You can get all het up about the fact that they lied and cheated, that when the fix is installed the MPG may change slightly (performance shouldn't, apparently),You know what though? I'm not that fussed, even if the MPG drops a couple of points after the fix it's still a bloody good car.

 

That's what matters to me.

 

Too right it is a damn good car, is now and still will be when this issue is cleared up... IF it is an issue in the UK

 

All they have said is "We regret to inform you that the Type EA 189 engine built into your vehicle with the Vehicle Identification you submitted, is affected by software that MAY cause discrepancies in the values for oxides of nitrogen (NOx) during dynometer runs." 

 

Notice the word "MAY" .. As far as I am aware this DOES NOT mean :-

 

It does

It has

It will

 

It means it "May" effect ... If it was ever active in the UK market in the first place... 

 

 

A US link here about performance and mpg change  with the 'cheat mode' on and off:-

 

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20151009/COPY/310099941/vw-diesels-with-operative-emissions-gear-are-slower-and-thirstier

 

8% is mentioned.

 

 

 

I read (somewhere???) that the US cars had the SCR kit 'turned down' a bit so the cars would run to the US 10,000m service interval before needing a urea top up. That way the owners never had to get involved with that chore.

 

Until there is an "official" comment from the relevant manufacturer saying "xyz" I treat everything I read as bull****... 

 

Think about it ... you have a car that can be upto 6 years old that MAY be effected.. .I am damn sure that a 6 year old car with 50-60000 miles plus on the clock, all nice and worn in will not be kicking out anywhere near the regulation limit, so I suspect these will benefit more than anyone... If someone turned round to me and said (AS SPECULATED IN THE PRESS FOR SOME ENGINES BUT NOT CONFIRMED) "The fix for your car Mr XYZ will need 4 new injectors, an new catalyst/DPF and a software update" I would say get them bloody fitted! £2000 of work on a 6 year old car with 50000 plus on the clock for nothing... RESULT!

[lichfielddriver]

Theres an opening here, for REAL driving MPG and emissions testing, how many have bought Vauxhall Insignia diesels on the back of the advert declaring 72mpg?

[lichfielddriver]

Mondeo Mk3 TDci 130PS - 49mpg

Chevrolet Epica 2.0ltr TD - 41 mpg

Skoda Superb 1.6td estate - 56mpg

 

Fact not fantasy

[lichfielddriver]

If it aint broke dont fix it

[lichfielddriver]

Will the new parts fitted come with new warranty on them and any bad effect they may have on an engine running well prior to the new parts being fitted?

[Kazimir80]

depends on what the solution will be... soft update? adding SCR? injectors? or just commenting, ok the real figures are still ok in EURO5 limits....

 

nobody tell you now

[Raptor]

Some interesting replies and clearly not everyone is concerned. I have taken a back seat approach of wait and see. For me, the key issue is one of trust. I have possibly been sold a product with a specification for a low road fund tax and lower emissions, thus, bringing into compliance with UK law. I am possibly driving about In a car that is in breach of the law.

I am sure if I deliberately flaunt the law I would be held to account.

Have I paid a higher price for my car in order to meet the then new emissions level due to the cost of the redesigned engine and software? What will this mean for the resale price of my car? Let us be clear, the motor industry will not forget this and will be looking for an excuse to undervalue the car.

I am currently enjoying a very decent MPG, if as suggested, a software redesign will give me an 8 percent decline, is not in my view, acceptable. I was sold the car also on decent consumption figures.

I do agree wholeheartedly that this is a very good car and a delight to own.

[lichfielddriver]

I am currently enjoying a very decent MPG, if as suggested, a software redesign will give me an 8 percent decline, is not in my view, acceptable. I was sold the car also on decent consumption figures.

 

 

 

Except mpg figures are never warranted whereas the emissions ARE, so any court case would be better aimed at that

[Kazimir80]

I think the Germans are really considering the options what to do with the engines. They for sure know if they publish whatever solution which would led to underpower the engine for meeting the emissions issue, VWAG will be facing prosecution from the customers as the engine does not meet the power parametres. So from my point thats why is not that easy to officially answer the question what will VWAG do with the engines out there...

Edited 11 October, 2015 by Kazimir80

[lichfielddriver]

VAG should take a few and try every means to put the engines to rights, trouble is this takes years of testing, and 100,000 miles, time is against them

 

id 1st remove any cheat software but after a dyno and emissions check, and do the same after, if the power/torque is unchanged in normal driving that would be a step in the right direction

[Danny 57]

I have just posted this in the AE189 thread but thought it was suited in this thread also.

 

I have tried to take a step back.

The only thing that is affected was the fake test when the cars ecu was programmed to know that it was being tested and therefore reduced the various elements to kid the out come.

As far as I know at all other times it worked as normal hence the car mags claimed and actual CO2 varied by between 20-40% over the last at least three years that I remember Auto Express quoting in their tests.

Now is it that element that may be changed which may officially increase your V5 form and therefore your yearly road. I do not think the government will do that because of what is involved as it is far easier to fine the car makers which at this time is only VW!

As I stated above earlier I now believe it WILL make a difference in mpg FOR the TEST results only and not for us mere mortals in normal driving which is NOT under test conditions.