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Felicia 1.3 Cylinder Head Corrosion Around Coolant Ways


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Hi guys,

I recently started working to change the head gasket on my Felicia 1.3MPI (T reg), having decided that it has developed a leak.  When I removed the head, I discovered that the old gasket had deteriorated significantly in the areas above where the coolant sits in the engine block.  Whilst cleaning the head, I found that it was quite badly pitted in this area:

 

eHuioPO.jpg

 

g8eYaP5.jpg

 

 

How serious is this?  I have never changed a head gasket before, I understand that it is possible to have the head machined flat but this will presumably be expensive and time consuming, and I am not sure that the car would be worth it.  From looking at the engine, the corroded areas do not press against any surfaces on the engine block, so perhaps these parts do not need to be perfectly flat?

 

Any advice anyone?

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Just 5 topics below yours there is one titled

felicia N-reg 1.3 glxi AFTERMARKET & SUPERIOR head gasket?

You will find answers in there. A machine shop knows best if the head is repairable or not. They measure it. Nothing can be said just by looking at a photo.

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[snip}

How serious is this?  I have never changed a head gasket before, I understand that it is possible to have the head machined flat but this will presumably be expensive and time consuming, and I am not sure that the car would be worth it.  From looking at the engine, the corroded areas do not press against any surfaces on the engine block, so perhaps these parts do not need to be perfectly flat?

 

Any advice anyone?

Neither particularly expensive, nor time consuming, I wouldn't say. Depending on where in the UK you live, I'd guess you could get change out of a hundred pounds, and possibly get it done within a day if there's a suitable engine shop near you.

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I think the OP is in fact asking if he could get away without machining the head at all. He has a technical reason ("the corroded areas do not press against any surfaces on the engine block") and a financial one ("I am not sure that the car would be worth it"). The latter is up to him totally, the former is wrong. You don't get a good seal just by pressing around the edges of the liners. Between the constand explosions in the combustion chamber and the coolant and outside respectively, sits the head gasket. It has to withstand tremendous temperature and pressure. So it needs a large contact area to seal properly. If you'd put a new head gasket directly, it will blow in 5 minutes.

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Thank you both for the replies, I've had another look at the thread you linked (I had already looked through it, but missed the pictures of his cylinder head somehow). It sounds like the thing to do is get it machined, as I feared.  No point wasting the new gasket and bolts if it will just fail straight away.  According to Google, there is a company about 15 miles away (I live in Cambridge) who do that kind of thing, so I will give them a ring in the morning to see what they say. Will be an interesting job getting the head to them without a car, that's for sure. 

 

Leaving the head off for so long is making me nervous though, if the wet liners are disturbed I get the impression that will be it for the engine.

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Leaving the head off for so long is making me nervous though, if the wet liners are disturbed I get the impression that will be it for the engine.

After the head is removed, exposed bores and pistons should be protected with a thin film of oil. No big deal. Then put an oily rag over the block. You can see in the same topic how you can prevent liners from moving. Again, no big deal. As for the part "that will be it for the engine"... I don't understand where do people get those apocalypse legends. Underneath liners there is a copper seal ring. So what if the liner moves up a little? You push it back down. Relax.

 

5FMkD0K.jpg

 

eoVJ2pD.jpg

Edited by RicardoM
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Thanks for the advice, at the moment I have just got some plastic bags over the block to keep water out but I will get some oil on there as soon as possible.  I did see that you can put bolts in to clamp them, though I have not got anything suitable at the moment.  I will see if I can get something sorted out tomorrow.  I said that simply because I'm working in a car park, and the Haynes manual lists working with the wet liners as an engine-removal job which is beyond my present resources! 

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Haynes manuals are not the Holy Bible. They are the interpretation of an(some) individual(s) of original factory service manuals. Haynes manuals contain mistakes and exaggerations very often. I wouldn't touch a Haynes manual even with a 10 yards pole.

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Yeah, I know they should be taken with a pinch of salt - the alternator mounting on my engine was nothing like the section in the manual for example.  But it is/was the only thing I have to go off of regarding jobs on my car, and with no prior experience I don't know any better ways for doing things unfortunately.

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That cylinder head will be fine with a skim, the corrosion is outside the fire rings on the gasket. I've seen a lot worse.

i wouldn't have though it would be more than £20 to skim that, most machine shops will do them while you wait if you go at the right time.

Edited by TeflonTom
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 But it is/was the only thing I have to go off of regarding jobs on my car, and with no prior experience I don't know any better ways for doing things unfortunately.

That might change because I am in the process of writing a guide for doing the head gasket job from A to Z. I've seen you take very good photos so I encourage you to take more photos of the entire process (machining included if they will allow you). Our other forum colleague, fpga (Dean), did the same but I wouldn't mind having more detailed photos for a better illustrated guide. When ready I will post the guide in the guides section. Meanwhile you can ask us anything you find unclear and wasn't already explained in Dean's topic. Have a look in your personal messenger too.

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Thank you both for the replies, I've had another look at the thread you linked (I had already looked through it, but missed the pictures of his cylinder head somehow). It sounds like the thing to do is get it machined, as I feared.  No point wasting the new gasket and bolts if it will just fail straight away.  According to Google, there is a company about 15 miles away (I live in Cambridge) who do that kind of thing, so I will give them a ring in the morning to see what they say. Will be an interesting job getting the head to them without a car, that's for sure. 

 

Leaving the head off for so long is making me nervous though, if the wet liners are disturbed I get the impression that will be it for the engine.

I see you're not far from me

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Thank you very much for the replies, glad to hear that it should be fine with a skim. I unfortunately did not take pictures during disassembly - I did write down what I did, but that's not so useful for you.  I will make sure to take plenty during reassembly in case those help.  

 

The company I found will do a head resurface for £30 plus vat, which is much less than I expected.  Unfortunately, I am a bit stumped for how to get there, I only moved here recently and so don't really have anyone I can ask for a lift.  My two options are to cycle it there, or take a taxi.  Taking a taxi feels stupid, but I am afraid that the head may be damaged if I cycle it.  We shall see though, hopefully if I can get this done the rest of the job will be straightforward...

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A taxi would be £28 one way, so that's out.  The head is not too heavy though, so I think I will cycle it over on Saturday and get it skimmed then. I will modify an old rucksack I have to ensure that the head is well protected during the journey.

 

I have a few more questions about the work remaining to be done.Firstly, how clean should the manifold surfaces be? I have looked at the previously mentioned other thread, where it doesn't seem like the manifolds are super clean.  Mine currently looks like this, I may be able to improve it a bit further but I don't think it will ever be perfect:

 

uiw0BwV.jpg

 

lQGRGaD.jpg

Previously, there were 5 separate gaskets fitted for the manifolds. The replacement I have is a single large one which I believe was fitted to earlier models, but I understand it should still be compatible. 

 

Second question is should I change the oil immediately? I was going to wait until I head home for Christmas as my dad has cans to drain the oil into etc, whereas I have nothing at present. 

 

Third is how concerned should I be about the crud in the engine block coolant ways? I was going to just try to flush it out with some water, but is there a better way (chemical flushes or something?) to make sure that the system is clear?

 

Fourth is regarding the thermostat/housing.  I took this off thinking that one of the gaskets in my set of new ones would fit it, but it turns out the housing takes an O-ring instead - can this be reused? Also, is it a good idea to replace the housing, given that the coolant was full of rubbish? I did think before I started this job that the valve was a bit sticky, as the engine would warm a fair bit further than the middle of the gauge before the valve would open and bring the dial back to the centre.  Would this just be due to dirt in the system though? Or maybe this is normal behaviour and I am just a bit paranoid.

 

Finally, in the other thread the guy was checking valves for leaks, removing valves etc.  Is this necessary or recommended?  I do not have a valve press or the like so this would add a fair amount of time to getting the car back up and running.  I have not had a problem with the car losing/burning oil, or at least not that I have noticed. 

 

Thanks again for all the help so far, and sorry for the big list of questions!

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Firstly, how clean should the manifold surfaces be? I have looked at the previously mentioned other thread, where it doesn't seem like the manifolds are super clean.  Mine currently looks like this, I may be able to improve it a bit further but I don't think it will ever be perfect.

Clean all rust spots with WD40 and you are good to go. Clean the studs first with a wire brush then use WD40 on them and also on corresponding nuts. After 5 minutes wipe out the excess and smear with regular car grease the studs and the nuts.

Previously, there were 5 separate gaskets fitted for the manifolds. The replacement I have is a single large one which I believe was fitted to earlier models, but I understand it should still be compatible.

If the new gasket fits well on studs and holes, you're good.

Second question is should I change the oil immediately? I was going to wait until I head home for Christmas as my dad has cans to drain the oil into etc, whereas I have nothing at present.

You must drain the 'milkshake' out of the system otherwise you risk damaging the engine for good. Then buy the cheapest suitable 10W40 engine oil and oil filter and refill / replace. These 2 items will be for sacrifice because you will drain the oil again in maximum 100 miles. Then refill with good final engine oil and replace the oil filter again.

Third is how concerned should I be about the crud in the engine block coolant ways? I was going to just try to flush it out with some water, but is there a better way (chemical flushes or something?) to make sure that the system is clear?

Flush the system as good as you can with a hose. After assembling the engine, fill the cooling system with tap water and a bottle of coolant system flush liquid (I used from Wynn's or 2+2). Follow the instructions on the bottle. Then drain the crud and refill with proper antifreeze.

Fourth is regarding the thermostat/housing.  I took this off thinking that one of the gaskets in my set of new ones would fit it, but it turns out the housing takes an O-ring instead - can this be reused?

I don't think it will seal well again and you might break the housing if you'll try torquing the screws it more. But you can use red 'liquid gasket' instead.

Also, is it a good idea to replace the housing, given that the coolant was full of rubbish? I did think before I started this job that the valve was a bit sticky, as the engine would warm a fair bit further than the middle of the gauge before the valve would open and bring the dial back to the centre.  Would this just be due to dirt in the system though? Or maybe this is normal behaviour and I am just a bit paranoid.

You must address the initial problem that got you here. If possible buy a new thermostat and housing (o-ring included)

Finally, in the other thread the guy was checking valves for leaks, removing valves etc.  Is this necessary or recommended?  I do not have a valve press or the like so this would add a fair amount of time to getting the car back up and running.  I have not had a problem with the car losing/burning oil, or at least not that I have noticed.

If your car has under 100,000 miles you should be good in terms of replacing the valve stem seals. But you should do at least a valve leak test using petrol as shown in a video I linked there.

Edited by RicardoM
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Thank you for such a detailed reply! A few followup questions from me:

 

 

smear with regular car grease the studs and the nuts

I have some copper anti-seize grease which I was going to use for the cylinder head bolts, would this be suitable?

 

 

 

You must drain the 'milkshake' out of the system otherwise you risk damaging the engine for good. Then buy the cheapest suitable 10W40 engine oil and oil filter and refill / replace. These 2 items will be for sacrifice because you will drain the oil again in maximum 100 miles. Then refill with good final engine oil and replace the oil filter again.

The oil is not all milkshake, there is some mayonnaise in the top of the rocker cover and there was some on two of the pushrods.  It sounds like I won't be able to get away with leaving the old oil for a while, though, so back to the shops it is.

 

 

 

If your car has under 100,000 miles you should be good in terms of replacing the valve stem seals. But you should do at least a valve leak test using petrol as shown in a video I linked there.

The car has done 127,000 miles so I guess replacements are in order.  I think I have a replacement set of seals that came with my gasket set.  The place doing the resurfacing can leak test and change the stem seals for £20, so I think I will get it done there. I don't have any petrol to leak test myself, nor any of the equipment to change the seals, and the other guy managed to break something which makes me a tad nervous.

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I have some copper anti-seize grease which I was going to use for the cylinder head bolts, would this be suitable?

Yes, you can. But do not use anti-seize copper grease on head bolts. A thin film of fresh engine oil is best. I encourage you to watch the 2-parts video about replacing a head gasket I linked in the other thread. Do what he says and you'll be good.

 

The oil is not all milkshake, there is some mayonnaise in the top of the rocker cover and there was some on two of the pushrods.  It sounds like I won't be able to get away with leaving the old oil for a while, though, so back to the shops it is.

The oil-coolant emulsion is a disaster for lubrication. The mayo is now on the bearings of the crankshaft rusting it slowly. Some more is clogging the oil filter. Why risking? Do yourself a favour and drain the oil in any plastic recipient. No big deal. Use jack stands, you have one life only.

 

The car has done 127,000 miles so I guess replacements are in order.  I think I have a replacement set of seals that came with my gasket set.  The place doing the resurfacing can leak test and change the stem seals for £20, so I think I will get it done there. I don't have any petrol to leak test myself, nor any of the equipment to change the seals, and the other guy managed to break something which makes me a tad nervous.

Perfect, let them do it. As an aside note, Dean used pliers instead of a small screwdriver. The seals are rubbery with a thin sheet of steel at the seat side. No pliers needed, unless Haynes says so :wall: . Skoda said 'screwdriver'.

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But do not use anti-seize copper grease on head bolts.

Interesting! I only bought it on the advice of someone I know, who said that putting copperease on the head bolts was a very good idea! I skimmed those videos earlier, will watch them after work properly and do as you say.  Could you tell me why copper grease would be a bad idea for the head bolts?

 

Why risking? Do yourself a favour and drain the oil in any plastic recipient. No big deal. Use jack stands, you have one life only.

Fair point, I am already invested enough in getting the car back up and running properly so I probably shouldn't skimp on the oil after everything else. I will buy two lots of oil plus filters, and change it once I have put the engine back together.

 

The seals are rubbery with a thin sheet of steel at the seat side. 

I will post a picture of the seals I have when I get home, to make sure that they are correct.  If not, I will need to hunt for some before I get the job done next week.  

Edited by areed
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Copper slip, which is an anti-seize, not a grease, shouldn't be used on critical parts where correct torque is essential, like head bolts. There are also recommendations for not using copper slip on aluminum where heat is involved. Having steel bolts in an aluminum block is a delicate issue already. One last argument: car manufacturers use oil on threads.

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Thanks for the clarification, oil on the bolts it is then! Kind of feel like I wasted my money on the copperslip now, ah well. 

 

These are what came with the gasket set:

9bMLPNO.jpg

 

There are 8 of them, so I assume they are the valve end seals. Do they look right to you?

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Yes. But inside diameter appears to be 8 mm. If T reg means registered between 1st March 1999 and 31st August 1999, the valve stem diameter is 7 mm, so you need a set for 7 mm valve stems. Check with a caliper both the stems and the seals. Let's hope my eyes deceive me.

Edited by RicardoM
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The car was bought in July 1999, so yes that's right.  I don't have a set of callipers unfortunately, but will pick some up tomorrow to double check.  Rough measurement with a ruler of the narrow end of the seals, and the shiny top of the valves, suggests that both are 7mm so I am hopeful that it will be ok.

 

Just been to Halfords, picked up a can to drain the oil into, as well as some rad flush (Holts, they didn't have either brand you suggested) and some stuff to clean the throttle body/inlet manifold.  Also managed to get some spacers from work so I can clamp the wet liners in place for cleaning the engine block surface.  Aim is to have everything I can clean finished this weekend.

 

I will pick up some oil and filters this weekend, plus a thermostat housing and sump gasket (this slowly seeps oil, so if I am draining the system I might as well change it).  I will get the head skimmed and valves done early next week (assuming the seals measure up ok tomorrow), then it will just be a job of putting it all back together I think. 

 

Hopefully there will no more complications, and I will get a good few more miles out of the car!

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It is a good idea to take off the oil pan. Most of oil-coolant emulsion is trapped in there. The replacement of the oil pan gasket is clearly explained in the manual I've sent to you. Make good use of it.

 

As for your early observation that most mayo is showing up only in the rockers cover area, well... that is because 1) only there you had easy access, and 2) the emulsion is churned up there by the rockers and foam is formed. If you'll churn the removed 'oil' you will get 'mayo' too. Please take a photo of that 'oil'. If you put that 'oil' on a hot plate, it will sizzle, instead of just smoke.

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Thank you for the reply, I have measured the valve seals and the valve stem (above the spring cap thing, couldn't fit the callipers inside the spring) and both are 7mm. Here is a photo of the mayo in the rocker cover.  This formed after two 60 mile journeys (havinng wiped away all mayo around the oil cap beforehand).

zCxKEww.jpg

 

Turns out I need larger washers to clamp the wet liners, so I will have to hunt for those.  I am also concerned for the quality of the engine block surface, having started to clean it today. If the block needs work, then I am screwed.  I don't have the resources to get it out of the car, or transport it.  I will feel very stupid indeed if after all the time and effort I have put in so far, the gasket just fails again :(

 

The current state of the block:

w3LQJYf.jpg

 

Dampness in the cylinders is penetrating oil, not water.

Edited by areed
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I didn't see yet a Felicia cylinder block in need of resurfacing. I've looked closely at your photo and I didn't see anything major to worry about. If you wanna see a really scary looking block, look below. You just clean bolt hole threads, the block and the top part of the liners of any gasket residues. And think more positive.

 

TFBiSKy.jpg

Edited by RicardoM
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