Felicia 1.3 Cylinder Head Corrosion Around Coolant Ways

[areed]

It's not that I don't know how to properly jack up the car or that we do things in here disregarding completely safety rules or for not having the proper tools or other means.

 

Didn't mean to suggest that at all, sorry if it came across like that!  Was more posting what I did in case there was something wrong with it.  When I first started working on the car I had to guess where to put the stands, as the manual (owners or Haynes) doesn't mention anything other than the jacking points.  To make things worse, I had never jacked up a car or used axle stands before so had no prior experience to work with.

 

Will crack on with a mallet tomorrow!

Edited 7 December, 2015 by areed

[areed]

Bad news, the thermostat I ordered (the one linked earlier) arrived today and does not look like the one in the picture.  Instead, they sent me this:

 

 

I am most disappointed, hopefully I will be able to return it and buy a better one...

[RicardoM]

Oh well... that sucks indeed. They used false advertising, unless they mentioned the photo is just orientative. Between you and me, even such mention sucks since we don't buy 'orientative' parts. You were so angry that your hands were trembling when you took the photo

 

I have a quick question for those in-the-know about which side of the head gasket faces up. If you look at this very nice photo took by our friend, the gasket is seated properly because it is clearly marked TOP, has the label of the manufacturer, and most importantly, the hole on the right side (circled in yellow) is aligned with the oil passage that feeds the rocker gear through the head. Put the gasket backwards and the oil passage will be blocked resulting in rockers squealing. So everything is cool. Except one thing. Usually the fire rings on the head gasket (around the bores) are in union on the side facing DOWN, towards the block. Yet we see this is not the case here. Why is that?

 

Edited 8 December, 2015 by RicardoM

[areed]

You were so angry that your hands were trembling when you took the photo 

 

Take photos in haste, repent at leisure! I have started a return request on Ebay, will have to hunt down something else to use instead.  Even if I use a clip-in thermostat, I would not use this one as it feels VERY cheap compared to the one I took off.  On the original, the spring was very strong - disassembling the thing required a screwdriver and some considerable force.  This one can be compressed easily with my thumbs, I could definitely see it self-destructing like the picture you posted earlier.

 

Usually the fire rings on the head gasket (around the bores) are in union on the side facing DOWN, towards the block. Yet we see this is not the case here. 

 

Having watched the two-part video you posted, I wondered this myself.  Would be interested to know why this gasket is different.

Edited 8 December, 2015 by areed

[RicardoM]

Having watched the two-part video you posted, I wondered this myself.  Would be interested to know why this gasket is different.

I'm on the case, I am curious too. Let's see who can help. Meanwhile, do you still have the old head gasket? Or photos of it? Might help.

[areed]

do you still have the old head gasket? 

 

I do but it's out in the car at the moment, I will bring it in for some photos tomorrow.

 

Following your advice, I obtained a nice big rubber mallet with which the sump was "encouraged" to free itself from the engine.  It appears that it was not fitted with a gasket, but with some kind of greyish/yellow rubbery substance - perhaps similar to the RTV stuff above?  I've sanded back the corroded paintwork tonight, will repaint it tomorrow evening and post pictures if I can.

Edited 9 December, 2015 by areed

[RicardoM]

Following your advice, I obtained a nice big rubber mallet with which the sump was "encouraged" to free itself from the engine.  It appears that it was not fitted with a gasket, but with some kind of greyish/yellow rubbery substance - perhaps similar to the RTV stuff above?

You see? That's the spirit. There are indeed jobs where utmost care, precision, and cleanliness are required. I will mention when that is the case. But removing the oil sump is not surgery. The gooey stuff that you found in place of gasket is probably an adhesive silicone, that is why it was hard to move the sump. Not a good idea. RTV silicone is like a rubber resistant to lubricants. It seals by its elasticity, not by gluing. RTV silicone works well when surfaces are perfectly flat. The oil sump is usually not so flat, so personally I prefer a proper gasket.

 

I recommend cleaning well those 19 screws, washers and holes in the block. The screws should run smoothly, without feeling friction like trapped sand on threads. Follow the torque order and torque value (10Nm).

 

Waiting for old head gasket photos (both sides).

Edited 9 December, 2015 by RicardoM

[RicardoM]

I have several generic critical observation to make about the cylinder head and head gasket for 1.3 l engines. See photo below.

 

The head itself: it is not matching the outer shape of the block! Why, Skoda?! It's like they slammed in a hurry a new head over an old block and hoped for the best. Then produced millions of copies/ See bottom left & right corners.

 

The template used by all manufacturers for the head gasket: who designed the template?? A blind man? I mean, look at the cutouts that don't match the contour of the block. Again... why, Skoda?

 

[areed]

As promised, pictures of the old gasket:

 

 

Put a couple of coats of paint on the sump today, plus I collected the correct sump gasket and ordered another thermostat which should be better.  Also ordered some copper washers for the sump plug - is this really meant to be done up to 65Nm? That is quite tight!

[RicardoM]

 Also ordered some copper washers for the sump plug - is this really meant to be done up to 65Nm? That is quite tight!

It is indeed a lot of torque. Probably that applies to the situation when a new copper washer is used. It takes quite a lot of torque to crush it to mould in and seal. On an oil sump with a washer already crushed, I guess 25Nm is enough.

[KenONeill]

Also ordered some copper washers for the sump plug - is this really meant to be done up to 65Nm? That is quite tight!

I don't actually have a manual for the Skoda 13N engines to hand, but any I do have are universal in saying 30Nm for a sump plug with a new copper washer.

[areed]

Progress update for the last few days:

Sump removed:

 

 

 

Corroded paint taken off:

 

And repainted:

 

 

Not the best job, but better than just leaving it to rust in my opinion.  The sump was refitted with a gasket (instead of the strange rubber glue type stuff that I took off) over the weekend.  Also, adjusted the valves as per your excellent guide Ricardo, and refitted the rocker cover:

 

And the inlet manifold:

 

Could do with a new accelerator cable as the plastic on the old one is broken, but I can't find one for sale so will have to hunt the local scrap yards once the car is back up and running.  Also, bought this from the motor factors today:

 

 

Quite a lot more expensive than the eBay one, but hopefully it will do a good turn! Got some new copper sump washers too:

 

Just waiting for a new o-ring to be delivered for the thermostat housing.  Should be ready to test later this week!

[RicardoM]

The oil sump looks amazing. Nice job! The thermostat looks good too. I've told you a good one is not cheap. But it is worth it, looks rustproof. A tight, well bled cooling system with a good thermostat, rad fan switch, and coolant replaced every 2 years does wonders. Good heat during winter, rapid engine warm up, cool engine during summer. All these keep you far from major trouble.

 

I like your attention to details, you will love your car knowing you did everything by yourself. Oh well, maybe with a little help from me    I am glad my guide helped you. I was afraid my English ruined my good intentions. But I will polish my grammar and style and I hope people will gain more confidence in my knowledge and experience.

 

Throttle cable should have a little slack, otherwise the idle will 'hunt'.

 

Does the engine rotate smooth and quiet by hand? Of course, except for the force necessary to compress the air and the puffs from the holes of the spark plugs.

[KenONeill]

Particular agreement with "coolant replaced every 2 years": A failure to do this was what caused the head corrosion up at the top of the thread.

[areed]

Thanks for the reply!  I'd say your English is very good, certainly far better than my skills in any other language :p

 

Throttle cable should have a little slack, otherwise the idle will 'hunt'.

 

The throttle lever can rotate a few degrees before it engages the flap inside the throttle body, is that enough slack?  I adjusted the cable so that the lever hits its end stop when the pedal hits the stop inside the car.  

 

Does the engine rotate smooth and quiet by hand? 

 

I think so yes, though it did occur to me last night that maybe I should have put some oil on the rocker gear/valve springs as these are quite dry after cleaning.

 

Particular agreement with "coolant replaced every 2 years": A failure to do this was what caused the head corrosion up at the top of the thread.

 

 

If the repairs succeed and the car is still going in two years time, I will most definitely do this!

Edited 15 December, 2015 by areed

[RicardoM]

The throttle lever can rotate a few degrees before it engages the flap inside the throttle body, is that enough slack?  I adjusted the cable so that the lever hits its end stop when the pedal hits the stop inside the car.  

It is OK.

If the repairs succeed and the car is still going in two years time, I will most definitely do this!

Felicia 1.3 dies from rust in key points, not from engine / gearbox problems. Well maintained, it will last years to enjoy it.

[areed]

Felicia 1.3 dies from rust in key points, not from engine / gearbox problems. 

 

Reassuring! Think the bodywork is pretty good on mine, some rust on the wheel arches that I touched up after I bought it but nothing that looked super serious...

Edited 15 December, 2015 by areed

[RicardoM]

I have seen and repaired hundreds of Skoda Felicia. Those that ended in a scrap yard were neglected, abused, bad maintained, rusted or had been involved in an accident. No modern car in the same price range and performance will last so long as Felicia. Not to mention how easy and cheap it is to repair it at home. You have just witnessed that.

 

Ref. to your concern about not oiling the rockers, here is something scary but very reassuring below. You are looking at rockers, lifters and pushrods without lubrication after 300 km... The reason was the head gasket mounted upside down.

The engine still runs fine. Nothing was bent or seized. A new, properly seated head gasket will be fitted soon. The gasket had no markings on it whatsoever. Very easy to put it wrong if you don't know about the oil passage for the rockers.

What modern engine would forgive such mistake?

Edited 15 December, 2015 by RicardoM

[areed]

You are looking at rockers, lifters and pushrods without lubrication after 300 km... 

 

Good grief! Feel more confident about my repair job being successful, if the engine can even cope in that situation!

 

The current plan is to refit the last few bits early tomorrow morning, then refill with coolant and cheap oil.  I am going to wait to flush the coolant until I drive home to my parents for Christmas (this weekend), as I can then use a hose to flush the system properly (as opposed to running up and down stairs with buckets of water).  I will also change the oil again when I do so, as recommended.  This will mean doing a bit more than 100 miles with the cheap oil unfortunately, but that can't be helped.

 

A few questions:

 

1. What torque should I do the spark plugs up to? This isn't mentioned in the owners manual or workshop manual, so all I have to go on is the Haynes setting of 30Nm (for plugs with washers) which seems fairly tight.
2. What would be recommended as a good non-cheap oil for the engine? The Owners Manual lists a variety of different ones, either "multigrade high lubricity" or just "multigrade". When I bought the cheap oil the shop mentioned 5W/30 I think, but I really am clueless as to which would be the best thing to go for...
3. Does the brand of coolant matter that much?  I have some made by "Triple QX" that I bought to top up the car when it was leaking, which says on the back that it is compatible with G12 (I think G12 itself has been phased out, as I couldn't find any more official looking stuff).  Will that be OK?  

Edited 15 December, 2015 by areed

[trundlenut]

Good grief! Feel more confident about my repair job being successful, if the engine can even cope in that situation!

The current plan is to refit the last few bits early tomorrow morning, then refill with coolant and cheap oil. I am going to wait to flush the coolant until I drive home to my parents for Christmas (this weekend), as I can then use a hose to flush the system properly (as opposed to running up and down stairs with buckets of water). I will also change the oil again when I do so, as recommended. This will mean doing a bit more than 100 miles with the cheap oil unfortunately, but that can't be helped.

A few questions:

• What torque should I do the spark plugs up to? This isn't mentioned in the owners manual or workshop manual, so all I have to go on is the Haynes setting of 30Nm (for plugs with washers) which seems fairly tight.
• What would be recommended as a good non-cheap oil for the engine? The Owners Manual lists a variety of different ones, either "multigrade high lubricity" or just "multigrade". When I bought the cheap oil the shop mentioned 5W/30 I think, but I really am clueless as to which would be the best thing to go for...
• Does the brand of coolant matter that much? I have some made by "Triple QX" that I bought to top up the car when it was leaking, which says on the back that it is compatible with G12 (I think G12 itself has been phased out, as I couldn't find any more official looking stuff). Will that be OK?

TripleQX is Euro Car Parts own brand. I have used their coolant before without issue. G12 was replaced by G12+, then G12++, then G13. Don't think there should be a problem.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

[RicardoM]

areed

Seems like a good plan.

 

What torque should I do the spark plugs up to? This isn't mentioned in the owners manual or workshop manual, so all I have to go on is the Haynes setting of 30Nm (for plugs with washers) which seems fairly tight.

Haynes got it right this time. It's 30 Nm indeed. See PM.

 

What would be recommended as a good non-cheap oil for the engine? The Owners Manual lists a variety of different ones, either "multigrade high lubricity" or just "multigrade". When I bought the cheap oil the shop mentioned 5W/30 I think, but I really am clueless as to which would be the best thing to go for.

Buy a semi-synthetic 10W40 multigrade oil. Don't go fully synthetic. 5W40 is good if you plan doing Christmas with Mrs. Santa up North. I am using VATOIL Syntech 10W40 (made in Holland) for a long time. MANNOL Classic 10W40 (made in Germany) is very good too. Avoid Castrol.

 

Does the brand of coolant matter that much?  I have some made by "Triple QX" that I bought to top up the car when it was leaking, which says on the back that it is compatible with G12 (I think G12 itself has been phased out, as I couldn't find any more official looking stuff).  Will that be OK?  

Avoid any expensive marketing BS with lots of X-s, ultra, max, + or other $hit like that. I use G11 coolant from STARLINE (made in Czech R.).

Edited 15 December, 2015 by RicardoM

[RicardoM]

Correction: I am using G12 coolant (conforming to TL VW 774 D) - 3l canteen + 3l distilled water.

 

Edited 16 December, 2015 by RicardoM

[areed]

Well, I finished reassembling the car today after a few mistakes.  Started her up first time, and she was running well it seemed.  I was waiting for the car to get up to temperature, while keeping my eyes peeled for leaks, when after a couple of minutes I spotted smoke coming from the engine.  Stopped it immediately, had a close look with a torch and couldn't see anything. I suspect it was just oil/grime that had made its way onto the exhaust manifold during reassembly, as I couldn't see any leaks of any kind.  

 

So I decided to start the engine and carry on, except now it won't start!  Initially it would barely manage to keep running, idling extremely slowly, and now it doesn't even manage that.  Very worrying!  I have switched it all off and disconnected the battery, will try to start it again in an hour or so, just in case its some software thing or the engine is flooded.  Unfortunately, beyond that I don't really know what to do, could it be a blockage in the fuel line perhaps? Any help or suggestions would be very much appreciated, as I was planning on driving home tomorrow! :(

[areed]

OK update:  Reconnected the battery and tried again after an hour, this time it started fine and so I let it idle until the fan cut in.  The idle speed hunted a little bit once it was up to temperature, I will take it for a test drive later tonight and see if it keeps this behaviour.  Could be that I didn't leave quite enough slack in the throttle cable, as suggested earlier.  

[RicardoM]

Alan,

Re. the smoke: don't worry, it's the oil on manifolds

Re. the no start issue and erratic idle: the throttle body needs a reset procedure after messing with it.

 

Read thoroughly the topics below:

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/172373-felicia-mpi-13-throttle-body-reset/

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/265017-reset-throttle-bodies/

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/233610-throttle-body-reset-without-vag-com/

 

The good news is you have the engine running after a blown head gasket. That is huge for a DIYer.