Tracking ... the age old problem

[CRC]

I'm pretty sure that my Superb could do with a visit to the track alignment machine, but having read up about this on the forum, especially with regard to "raised toe" etc, I'm not quite sure what to do.

 

I get the impression that the car is always pulling very slightly to the left and that when I'm steering a straight course, the steering wheel is always slightly pointing to the left. On good flat surfaces ( not may of those round here), I can let go of the wheel and it's really not bad, but I can guarantee that any input needed will always be to pull it away from the kerb, never the other way.

 

The front tyres (Hankook) had been on for about 17,000 miles and the tread wear is good and even apart from some noticeable wear on the kerb side shoulder of the near side tyre, all of which seems to say that a slight adjustment would be a good thing. I swapped the rear tyres (9k miles) to the front (all Hankook) and it did improve things, but I get the impression that the same thing is starting to happen again as the tyres bed in.

 

I know that there are all sorts of stories about suspension bushes, control arms etc etc, but is there ever a scenario where just a tweak on the track rod setting cures the problem? I would say that the chances of me finding a wheel alignment place that understands the words "raised toe" are vanishing small, but I feel that I need to do something.

 

The car is running on Bilstein B4 shocks that are about two years old.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

[rotodiesel]

Find a good VAG specialist independent who has been trading in your area for years. Ask him on the phone whether he has the tool to set the "raised toe" on a Passat (year) clone.

 

If there's no reasonable response, try elsewhere. If you find intelligence, ask them to make a thorough check of all the suspension joints and reset the toe (4 adjustments - 2 trackrod length, 2 ball pin height). 

 

It won't be cheap, especially if there are any loose joints and seized bolts - but running these cars properly for peanuts is not an option. Don't waste any money with a tyre centre or a main dealer.

 

rotodiesel.

[CRC]

Thanks, Roto,

 

I'll start the hunt for a specialist.

[dieselV6]

Very slight pull to the left is normal on UK roads, just as slight pull to the right is in Europe. To make sure it is not road camber, find an empty flat road and drive on the wrong side of it for a moment, if pull changes to the opposite side there is no problem with the car.

But if you need to recheck tracking, best to check for damaged suspension components first, replace as neccessary, then find the specialist. 

[CRC]

As an update, I figured that I at least needed to know a little bit more about "raised toe" before I started ring round to try and find someone who knew what I was talking about, so I found the link below, which shows that it doesn't seem to be dramatically complicated.

 

It would appear that there are two positions where the toe is measured .... with the car in the normal position and then one where the car body is jacked up by 70 mm. This makes sense as the toe is being measured with the suspension in the normal position (supporting the whole weight) and also when the suspesion is partially unloaded as the jacks are now supporting part of the weight.

 

The geometry of the suspension arms will alter the toe as the car loads and unloads the front supsension, and the toe will alter depending on how the suspension is loaded, with the alignment procedure allowing setting at the two ends of the "toe curve"

 

http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/toe-curve-adjustment-various-vag-group-vehicles

 

 

I tried a few places with predictable results, and then  I called into my normal tyre place and asked them if they'd heard of "raised toe" alignment, and they were quite honest and said that they hadn't, but they've not had any problems in the past with A4s or B5 Passats, and that they would have a go at mine with their equipment, and if I wasn't satisfied with the results, then I wouldn't have to pay for the alignment.

 

This is one of the few tyre places I've ever been to where they treat me "like an adult" and are reasonable and will go out of their way to help, so I thought "why not?" ..... it can't be any worse and it might make it better.

 

It was a non computerised laser system and I was chatting to the mechanic as he did it and it was obvious from the laser positions that the tracking was out. He adjusted it and I took it for a few miles test run and it was massively better ...... tracking straight and true and feeling much more precise. He also felt for any wear in the suspension arms and couldn't find any and he also pointed out that all my tyres were 8 psi low ( which I've subsequently tracked to my pressure gauge needle not returning to 0 psi .....duhhhh).

 

For the £24 it cost, it was massively better, and I wonder if it needs any more fettling, but, I have great respecto for Roto's knowledge, and eventually found a fairly local specialist cars place with a state of the art Hunter alignment system .... phoned him up and he apparently knows all about "raised toe" alignment and I was just booking an appointment when I thought I'd better ask the price ..... £130 + VAT or £156 to us normal mortals.

 

At this point I beat a hasty retreat and ask " is it worth that sort of money, given that the car now feels fine, but may not be "exactly right"?

 

I figure that it might be worth paying the money, but as the suspension arms etc are all 10 years / 90 k miles old, and the roads round here are full of pot holes, how long will it be before another expensive visit is called for?

 

 

 

 

[jimbof]

My limited understanding of the matter is that any old alignment place can indeed make it track right on a straight road; but that most roads aren't straight / flat, and you'll end up with weird handling as you move across uneven carriageways / roundabouts with weird cambers, and I guess in cases of extreme mis-setting, acceleration and braking.  In my case I do notice this every so often just on road surfaces - the car drives perfectly 99% of the time - but occasionally you get an odd feel through the chassis when going over a bit of road you can't really see an obvious problem with, but the wheels feel like they're doing the wrong thing.  95% of my driving is on dual carriageways, and I always use quality tires (and winters at the moment), which I guess minimize the issue.

 

I am a little surprised by my suspension.  In the 4.5 years I've had my car (172K on the clock now, bought with 39K), the only suspension components I've had fitted have been shocks - after an advisory on misting on a couple I replaced all with Bilstein B4's.  Every time I take it to see "a man" about stuff I can't do I get them to check it out, no-one has found any work there yet...  I guess my kind of driving is kind to these parts, as reading the Passat forums you'd get the impression that the components are made of cheese on these.

[CRC]

I  know what you mean, but I think that "strange feeling" that you are talking about is indeed a function of the shocking state of the roads as our Honda Jazz (which is one of the most "planted" cars I've ever driven) will also occasionally display that feeling.

 

Closer inspection of the road surface shows that the mega lorries are starting to carve wheel tracks in the road, and those are the ones that seem to give the wierd feeling as you climb out of or fall into the depressed trench that they've created.

 

It's even more noticeable on a motor bike .......

[CRC]

I'm still a bit puzzled why so few places know about this raised toe procedures as there are plenty of Audi A4, A6 and A8 owners out there, as well as B5 Passats and Skoda Superbs, so I looked up a manual for the Hunter compterised wheel alignment system and in the section that deals with raised toe adjustment it stated the following:

 

At the "Toe Adjustment with Vehicle Raised"  on screen will be several messages why a vehicle may need a Toe-Adjustment with vehicle Raised. Such conditions as:
 

 Steering or suspension components have been replaced.
 There are damaged parts on the steering/suspension system or body.
 Customer complains about abrupt steering wheel movement when traveling over bumps or valleys.

 

 

It seems to give the impression that if none of the above are true, then just a normal toe alignment procedure is all that is required? In my case, it was just pulling a bit to the left on normal roads, but I had no "abrupt bump steer effects"

[rotodiesel]

British ignorance, a culture of trade bodging and a lack of understanding of the design.

 

The above response is precisely one which needs to be avoided. Setting the raised toe is easy if you have the jig and know what you're doing. Changing the trackrod length(s) without resetting the ball pin height will result in a wrong setting.

 

See my earlier post.

 

rotodiesel.

[CRC]

The other day I stumbled across a website that contained the following information regarding raised toe alignment, and took some screen shots for future reference while I was there. Just as well, as the link no longer works.

 

However, if the PDF attached shows the correct way to do the raised toe alignment then it looks a piece of cake, and almost looks as if no special tools are required as it seems that as long as the car is raised by 70 mm as measured at the points shown, the wheels are still in contact with the ground, then the rest looks a doddle ?

 

Only thing is that they don't seem to give the figures for the top and bottom alignment values, because I'd like to take this to my friendly tyre place and ask them to try it in the two positions ..... one in normal position and one in the "raised by 70 mm position".

 

 

Raised Toe Alignment.pdf

[CRC]

Ummmm.... has anyone, ever, in the history of the world, managed to find anywhere or anyone that does actually know the meaning of the words "raised toe alignment", and, more importantly, really does know how to actually set it correctly?

 

Thanks

[CRC]

Apologies for wittering on about this ad infinitum, but it's now become a personal crusade to get my wheels aligned properly.

 

It is now on my " bucket list of things to do before I die"

 

I have completely failed to find any company ( apart from one that I was a little unsure of ) who even recognises the term "raised toe", so I'm compiling a manual that I can take round with me and try and find someone who has the kit and is prepared to work on it.

 

I know that the Hunter Hawkeye 811 can do it because I've downloaded the manual and there is a section describing how to do it.

 

I also "think I know" that camber is not adjustable without moving the subframes and that the back wheels have no adjustment at all (without moving the subframe).

 

I know that the VAG special tools are effectively "posh spacers" that only raise the car by 70 mm ( long wheel base ) and unloads the front suspension. Shouldn't be hard to come up with an adjustable bolt spacer to do the same thing.

 

There are only two settings on each wheel to adjust as far as I can tell  ... the " normal alignment" at the inner end of the track rod end (done with the car in its normal position) and the raised toe setting, done at the outer joint. (see photo)

 

However, I jacked my car up to have a looked at the raised toe setting and am a little puzzled by the description of how to adjust it and how it relates to what I found in there .... see the photo attached.

 

It looks to me like there is a screw driver slot on the bolt that goes through Nut A .... and this would normally mean it was adjusted on this bolt and not on bolt B as the description states?

 

Please, Roto .......... could you tell me where the correct adjustment is on the joint?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jimbof]

They don't say anything about using the slot in the end of the bolt in the workshop manual available from ERWIN.  The instruction appears to be the same as you have written.

[CRC]

The more I look at it now, the more I think that the screwdriver slot on Bolt A is there to hold whilst tightening Nut A (which appears to be a nylock nut).

 

Round at the back of the casting, there is no sign of Bolt A protruding through, so would imagine that Bolt A is screwed into the casting body using the screwdriver slot, then tightening Nylock A would clamp things in place. 

 

Does the ERWIN manual go into a decent amount of detail with decent drawings that could be printed and used to explain to non believers?

 

Thanks

[CRC]

I found this picture of a new track rod which shows what goes on inside the clamp assembly.

 

There appears to be grooved slot that the locking bolt can move up or down in before being locked in place by the clamping action, which explains how the height can be set.

 

There also looks like there is a hexagonal hollow socket machined in the end of the pin, presumably so that it can be rotated into the right orientation for the locking bolt when fitting the track rod arm.

 

It would also explain the reason for the screwdriver slot as Bolt A would need to be extracted to enable the fitting of a new track rod arm.

 

However, I can't quite see how the the text referring to Bolt B works ..... how would moving  Bolt B cause the height to change? It looks just like a "screw cap" that is keeping dirt out of the interior. 

[CRC]

However, this photo of a Meyle track rod end would seem to indicate that there is indeed a thread inside the pin, and that a bolt and washer (as shown) can be installed to accurately set the height of the pin by first tapping down the arm, then inserting the bolt and washer and screwing the bolt in ( thereby raising the pin) until the right height is achieved.

 

If then clamped in the correct position, the bolt and washer can be removed and the cap nut can then be screwed in to keep the dirt out.

 

Seems like another bolt and washer is needed whilst setting the height?

 

Lights are starting to come on at last ....

 

 

[rotodiesel]

The "screwdriver slot" which you can see from the wheelarch is just an indicator so that you can check that the horizontal clamp bolt is properly located. It has a shallow head with nothing other than a flat on it, which locates on a machined step on the knuckle. It's vital from a safety point of view that this bolt is correctly located before tightening the nut - hence the "slot" which is the visual tell tale.

 

The trackrod ball pin is indeed threaded to take the bolt which screws in from the top. After slackening the clamp nut, the bolt is unscrewed several turns and the ball pin pushed downwards. When setting the raised toe, the bolt is tightened, which raises the pin. When the correct pin height is reached, the clamp nut is tightened (preferably use a new nut) and the top "jacking" bolt is tightened to a very modest torque to stop it falling out.

 

It's an elegant system - guaranteed to be messed up by UK dealers - rather like the undertray...

 

rotodiesel.

Edited 19 May, 2016 by rotodiesel

[CRC]

Ah, now I understand.

 

What I had assumed to be a "cap nut" on the top, is in fact the bolt and washer, but accumulated crud had looked like a fillet weld which made me think it was all one piece.

 

I can now see that by undoing the top bolt a few turns and pushing the track rod arm down will cause the bolt head to drop, and that by winding it in again, it will cause the arm to rise. The bolt head and washer will remain flush with the top of the casting.

 

When the clamp nut is done up, then the bolt head is "nipped up" to keep it in place.

 

Many thanks, Roto .... now to find a tyre place with a good piece of kit and a helpful attitude, as all the VAG independents, Skoda dealers and VW dealers round here have never heard of the procedure and all send their cars to tyre fitters for alignment.

 

You would think that there would be at least one tyre centre that would like to shout from the roof tops that they can align wheels on Superbs, B5 Passats, A4s, A6s and A8s exactly as the factory intended them to .... but time will tell.

 

At least I can go and talk to them from a "position of knowledge" now.

[jimbof]

 

Does the ERWIN manual go into a decent amount of detail with decent drawings that could be printed and used to explain to non believers?

 

The total tracking / alignment section is about 22 pages.  Much of it is taken up with repetitive information showing which adapters to use on which chassis, but it doesn't tell you the dimensions of the VW adapters - basically is assumes you have the correct VW tools.

Note that these docs say 50Nm and 5Nm for the A and B parts, and that they should not be re-used.

[jimbof]

Perhaps another route to finding someone who knows what they are doing; see if one of the suppliers of the VAG1925 tool will tell you who in the UK has it.  If they've got the tool they might know how to use it (perhaps...!)

 

Reading on an old UKPassats thread, apparently Elite Tyre in Rainham / Essex had the gear to do it.

[CRC]

Thanks for the help ... on my telephone search there was one tyre place with a Hunter alignment system who seemed quite keen to look at the possibilities of this, so I'm planning to drop in with the information and see if they will actually have a go now that it's all become clear.

 

Will let you know how it goes ...

[CRC]

So, I discover that there's a local tyre place near me with a website that says they have a "state of the art" 3D camera John Bean  (Snap On) Arago alignment machine, and a bit of research shows that the Arago system doesn't use the term "raised toe", but instead refers to "toe curve change", and another John Bean website even shows that they apparently sell the VAG lifting tools to enable their system to do the alignment correctly .... sounds good, so I print off a couple of pages of photos and wander in to ask if they can do it.

 

After I show them the pictures, explain how it's done, and suggest that their Arago machine could do it, I get told.

 

1. Yeah, we have one of those machines, but we don't use it.

2. There is no height adjustment on the pin (he even rings up a parts supplier to apparently confirm that the slot in the pin is just to allow the bolt to go through and nothing more.)

3. I'll need new track rod arms as everything is bound to be seized up.

4. If I happen to be right about the height adjustment in the pin (he's losing the argument now)  and it is free, then he can adjust the height, but doesn't know what settings to set it to.

 

If you want to experience unbridled hostility, try suggesting to a tyre fitter that you know a bit more about wheel alignment on your car than he does

 

Words fail me .....

[rotodiesel]

As I predicted. UK skills levels are appalling, but the disinterest and lack of understanding are worse.

 

Faced with the same problem, I would make use of the availability of cheap laser pointers, find a flat horizontal area with a perpendicular plane wall. You can then fix a pointer to each wheel and project and measure the images, using trigonometry to calculate the toe angle. After making or buying (not necessarily expensive) the VAG fixtures, repeat for the raised toe. Have a beer if you get it right.

 

Getting the lasers fixed parallel to each front wheel rim may require some original thinking - two walls and half a turn of each wheel might address this problem.

 

Alternatively, if you're near SE UK, contact VAS Motion at Merrow, near Guildford.

 

rotodiesel.

[CRC]

Unfortunately I'm near Bath, so it's about a 180 mile round trip to Guildford.

 

I like the idea of doing it myself with lasers, and notice that there are similar systems available quite cheaply on EBay which utilise wheel fittings, lasers and screens at a distance to work things out.  I have a pretty flat drive and could use a couple of scissor jacks set at the right height to lower the car onto to give the raised position.

 

Trigonometry's not a problem, but the only thing I don't have are the toe angle settings in the normal and elevated positions.

 

Wonder if the values are stated in the ERWIN manual ? (Jimbof, please?)

 

Hmmm ....

[jimbof]

Did you get anywhere with this? I was just in a place earlier today and got the usual glazed over look when asking about this.