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Auto gearbox issue


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Sorry to post another auto gearbox thread, but couldn't find the same problem with the search function.

 

My car has developed an issue with reverse gear, it's a 2005 1.9 TDI Auto Edition 100. It will engage reverse gear and start to back up just fine, however if you try to give it any throttle, engine revs increase but nothing. It's fine if you're on a flat but as soon as you need to reverse uphill it becomes a real problem.

 

Has anyone experienced these symptoms, I'm really loathed to spend circa £1000 having the gearbox reconditioned, if it came to that I think the car would be finished sadly.  :no:

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I had the same. Gearbox refurb, cost me £1600 a couple of years back. Does yours also "buck" if you put it in reverse and keep your foot on the brake?

Hi Jimbo, 

 

Yeah it does, if you put your foot on the brake and engaged reverse it would try to pull off then stop, try again and then stop. 

 

I had read your experiences with your gearbox and to be honest, was hoping to find another account of the same issue with a less costly solution! I reckon the car is probably only worth about £2300 working, it's covered 111,000 miles. It's a dilemma because it's a nice car and in good order otherwise.

 

I noticed you had the oil and filter changed but I'm loathed to try this on the off chance it improves it, the kit costs around £120 when I looked and it looks pretty involved for the home mechanic, especially as the car needs to be raised but level.

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At about 95k I had a single incidence of it slipping in reverse. I promptly had the fluid done with genuine VW fluid / filters and in my case it was a waste of money - with the clean fluid it shortly became useless in reverse (unable to travel, bucking with foot on brake). The damage was already donr, and putting slippier fluid in there just makes it slip more I think...

I've had 70k out of the replacement box so far. First time they did the box they left me with a clunk down into 1st, which they sorted, but took a while. Also left my exhaust MIS aligned and banging under acceleration. Not altogether sure I'd recommend the process...!

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Yeah, I've only had the car a couple of months so its going to be costly either way sadly...

 

I'm going to look around and see if I can find anywhere north of the border who can fit a refurbished gearbox and take mine in part exchange... 

 

It's also needing some front suspension work and probably wheel alignment... money pit. I do a lot of miles, circa 25000 per year so if I can get it fixed and it does me for two or three years it does make financial sense. Decisions, decisions.

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I'm feeling like I'm about to bail on mine.  I've had 172K out of her now (30+K / year), did the belts, thermostat, waterpump and rad the other day.  Now I can hear the turbo whistling a fair bit louder (still original at 172K, I'm surprised), it is like a sauna inside the car as the temperature control flap motor has gone (with my new found hot water from the thermostat!), got an advisory on one of the suspension joints, and I had a single clunky downshift the other day.  

 

It is interesting though.  Our cars were probably built in the same week and have both eaten their reverse at roughly the same number of miles.  That'll be sealed for (it's disappointingly short) life, sir.  :)

 

There was an outfit in Bristol I recall who were doing repairs on these for about £1K, I went with someone a bit more local but not as extoritional as the local outfit round here.  It is a lot of money to spend on a car that's not worth much now...

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I'm feeling like I'm about to bail on mine.  I've had 172K out of her now (30+K / year), did the belts, thermostat, waterpump and rad the other day.  Now I can hear the turbo whistling a fair bit louder (still original at 172K, I'm surprised), it is like a sauna inside the car as the temperature control flap motor has gone (with my new found hot water from the thermostat!), got an advisory on one of the suspension joints, and I had a single clunky downshift the other day.  

 

It is interesting though.  Our cars were probably built in the same week and have both eaten their reverse at roughly the same number of miles.  That'll be sealed for (it's disappointingly short) life, sir.   :)

 

There was an outfit in Bristol I recall who were doing repairs on these for about £1K, I went with someone a bit more local but not as extoritional as the local outfit round here.  It is a lot of money to spend on a car that's not worth much now...

Yeah it is disappointing these gearboxes seem to have such a short life, especially when the rest of the car is solid, a few inherent faults aside. Mine is bone dry and the interior is in remarkably good condition, engine is spot on as far as I can tell.

 

It's a hard one, I'm not sure if I should pay up and get it fixed, run it into the ground until the reverse gear packs in entirely or cut my losses and sell it now. I think the second option probably makes most sense, it's a lot of money to spend and then have it followed by a series of smaller faults.

 

I can still drive it with a bit of thought, just have to think about where I'm parking... 

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Good luck with that, I got fed up with the hassle after about 3 days. It got quite a bit worse quite quickly. Depending on which failure mode it is, they might be some pretty big hunks of metal loose in there... :(

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Good luck with that, I got fed up with the hassle after about 3 days. It got quite a bit worse quite quickly. Depending on which failure mode it is, they might be some pretty big hunks of metal loose in there... :(

Gulp... I'll be sure to let you know how I get on! 

 

If I'd had it longer I'd probably just get shot of it, but I want to at least get some use out of it! 

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Good luck, hope it works out.  

 

I am by no means a mechanic - more an interested amateur - but the following is what I found out when I looked into this.

 

This is a ZF 5HP19 transmission.  The symptom is tipical of the reverse drum failing... it has an aluminium drum with a clip in it which holds the reverse clutch packs tight.  The lip of the drum snaps off (it was made very thin to accomodate the snap ring), and the various bits are then loose, which is probably not a good thing in a transmission where things are toleranced to fractions of a mm.  

 

You can see a piccy of a failed drum here - BMW also used this transmission:

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1833201-DIY-ZF-5HP19-Reverse-Drum-Fix&s=7021725b4ce828b5e3b57f78bf8f7c2d&p=24292303#post24292303

 

One useful bit of additional info is that the blowing of the drum is often a result of over pressure caused by the pressure regulation in the valve body failing - I think the common fix for that is they re-machine it and use an oversize valve.  So if you do have it sorted you want to make they're doing the lot (gearbox and valve body), otherwise the fix can be short lived (you just break the new drum much quicker than the original one).

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Mine had fresh oil and filter (at main dealer) at 75k miles.  Now at 150k miles (90% of which were pan-European cruises, not town/city work) the oil is completely worn out, as I drained it and dropped the sump on Saturday.  So these are definitely not sealed for life.  And at 150k miles mine is still working well with no dodgy shifting.

The dealer said to me they would based on their observations, condition of oil when it comes out etc, and repair jobs they have undertaken recommend on these boxes and oil and filter change every 40-60 k miles.  And I would agree with that 100%.  Thick old oil will run at higher pressure and may contribute to over pressurisation type failure symptoms.  I thought that because mine has hardly seen any city type duties that the oil will still be good, but this is not the case.  I can't even imagine the condition of oil in a car that's done 100k miles and a lot of those around a city…  that box is condemned to death.

If you have VCDS and a way of safely suspending the car up in the air for 3 hours, I would recommend doing this, as it will cost 70 quid instead of 250-300 for someone else to do it.  Either way, it's too late if you already have problems, but for those who don't, just preventatively do it.

Edited by oh_superb
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi all,

 

Just an update, I eventually decided to get rid of the Skoda, I got a very good price in part exchange against another car from a large dealer who were very lax in their inspection of the car... Almost what I paid for it so no real harm done.

 

The reverse gear quickly got much, much worse very quickly and the car wouldn't even reverse up a slight incline by the time I got rid it's MOT was due next month which would no doubt have required work on the front suspension. Had a look for a suitable gearbox nearby to no avail, a replacement would have cost me the best part of £1000 and required an overnight trip down South so her fate was sealed.

 

It was a lovely car but the gearbox and complex and fragile front suspension were a constant source of annoyance, Although cheap to buy, the continual expense of rectifying niggling problems which afflict these cars can quickly see them becoming a false economy in my experience... basing this on that car and a couple of other VAG group cars I've owned. Maybe I'm just unlucky!

 

It was supremely comfortable though and fantastic on a long run, as tempramental as some other components seemed to be, the interior was beautifully appointed and built.

 

If you see a Superb Edition 100 coming up for auction in Central Scotland over the next couple of weeks, maybe don't buy her... it's probably the same one!

 

 

 

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Sounds like you did well to get rid.  I keep trying to give in my Superb habit; spent a little time in a car supermarket and the weekend and left feeling disappointed at what £8K will get these days.

 

I think unless you're inclined to sort the niggly things yourself these cars into old age can indeed become moneypits...  I keep hoping a low miles high spec manual 1.9 will turn up, but there is some plain ridiculous money being asked for Mk1 Superbs with low money.  Worst I saw recently was a 56 plate 2.5V6 at £6K (ridiculous).

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  • 3 weeks later...

Could well be parting with mine Jimbo. 193k. Edition 100, 1.9PD 5 speed manual. Right spec but probably too leggy for what you want. Couple of niggles too. Deffo not 6k though.

 

As for the auto transmission, as you rightly point out the box is a ZF and there are one or two things which are common to a lot of their transmissions.

1. The Mechatronic unit (Valve body) is rarely (if ever) serviced by the autobox reconditioning people and this part is what causes most of the trouble. I know, I've done a few of the 6HP26 and 6HP28 units fitted to BMWs and Land Rovers. Anyone who might be interested in having a go definitely should. If they are stripped and cleaned with a strong solvent, replace any weak solenoids and re-assembled they will massively improve the life of the clutch packs. A digital camera is your friend for remembering how they go back together. ZF service centres will supply parts.

2. Sealed for life. Erm, that means "Sealed for the life of the warranty Sir". Interestingly, Land Rover modified this to say 150k miles or 10 years for a fluid change which is still madness. BMW, on the same box (minus the 4WD transfer box) quote 60K. I always change fluid via the cooler circuit. 25L drum on a workmate feeding new fluid in and another empty 25l drum on the ground to catch the old fluid. Then just let the gearbox pump do the work. :) 

3. Cooler circuits get blocked. On some (not Skoda that I'm aware of though) it's even known for them to leak across engine and box cooling leading to antifreeze in the box. Death nails. Heat or antifreeze are both sure fire ways to cook clutches.

4. Correct oil is essential. Not cheap copy stuff which doesn't meet spec. Most modern autos need electrically inert oil as well as the right fluidity properties. A lot of generic ATF is not electrically inert and this fries the ECU, not to mention confusing the hell out of the valve body solenoids.

5. Torque converters. Genuine ZF only for me, not recon ones. OK with a Superb it's not so big a job but with a Discovery 3 it's another 5 hours to get the body off again. Pay cheap, pay twice.

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Yup, as you say, too leggy.  I get the feeling with mine that either I'll tire of replacing all the ancillaries (my elbow has just worn a hole through the pleather used for the door cards grrr) or the gearbox will eat itself again before the engine has anything seriously wrong with it.  To move on I'm really looking for another car at the low end of mileage to then stuff 30K / year onto it again.

 

Useful info.  I did wonder about doing the fluid via that method.  Do you end up with the correct level, or do you then go through the temperature / top up procedure afterwards?

 

I'm in a bit of a quandry with mine.  It is just now due fluid (last done at 112K, now at 174K).  I swapped the rad when I did the belts etc and the tiny bit of fluid lost at the rad was definitely redish - which must mean they gearbox place used a generic multi-application fluid (when I asked them they were non-committal).  I either take it back to them to get the fluid changed, or I guess have the whole lot swapped out.  I would imagine mixing fluids can't be good?

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I always go through the correct top up procedure afterwards. it's the only way of getting it spot on but I've never been out by more than half a litre. As for mixing fluids I never do that either although once someone has put the wrong stuff in it it's hard to get a 100% change.

 

They are getting to that age though. Mine's a Jan 06 and starting to show signs of general wear although the engine is still strong. Original turbocharger as well. I do over 200 miles a day to work and back so I need reliability but I get the feeling this one is going to need money spending before too long. I wouldn't mind throwing some money at it but they do tend to get to the stage where it's a constant stream of issues. When I add up stuff like a clutch, brakes, shocks, springs, suspension arms, CV joints etc it looks like the thick end of 2 grand, probably better spent getting a lower mileage one. It's just the matter of finding a decent one, as you say there are some mental prices out there. I gave 2 grand for mine over 2 years ago and have done 80k in it yet some similar ones are still at 3 grand now. Madness.

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We're in a similar boat I see.  I'm also on the original turbo which I must say surprises me at 174K; all original suspension too apart from the shocks.  Think I might have a wheel bearing needing some attention soon (again, all original).  I'd love another one of these now as I've got the investment in knowing how to maintain it and the various tools etc; just have to find it for sensible cash.

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  • 3 months later...

LOL... have you seen the pictures of what will be wrong with your gearbox...?!  I'd have been impressed if that had fixed it.  The gearbox place I took mine to did have a bottle of it on the shelf, mind, perhaps that was all they did...  :D

 

Look at the missing pieces off the edge of the reversing drum:

 

D-Drum_A5S-325Z-0151.jpg

 

You'll probably have some of these bits knocking around there.  These pieces were holding a circlip in which kept your reverse gear clutch packs tight.  Not being held tightly = lack of drive in reverse.  Apparently this failure is for two reasons: 1) the original drum isn't strong enough and 2) one of the valves in the valve body starts developing too much pressure, which blows the already weak part.  The proper fix for this involves replacement of the drum and clutch packs and really sorting out the valve body issue (there is a special reaming kit and oversize valves).

 

zf23.jpg

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