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EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 1


gadgetman

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Love the story about the fisherman who demands that Bob Geldof apologises to him for disturbing his protest.

 

Protestor angry that protest is disturbed by protestor lol

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It's amazing. She's been on one of their campaign hustings before the more youthful Priti Patel was wheeled out.

Interestingly I've seen some fall out on Twitter against Boris after his announcement he's Pro immigration & wants an immigrant amnesty.

As I've seen a few mention, it's quite funny he's done this at a time when many have already voted by post!

Even a friend I tried to warn about Boris only caring about Boris & a strong leaver is spitting bullets over Boris comments last night.

I did try to warn him that Boris is a born liar

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Even a friend I tried to warn about politicians only caring about politicians 

I did try to warn him that politicians are born liars

Corrected for improved accuracy,

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Something I've just seen which hits the nail right on the head;

http://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154108358141068&id=628561067

I said I’d stay out of it. I said I’d keep my opinions to myself, but I was tipped over the edge by arriving home today to find a pamphlet in my other half’s name, and on the same doormat, a lies-ridden rag in my own name.

I started scribbling a response on it, which the intention of mailing it back to them, but after a few minutes listening to the sound of my own indignant breath snorting through my nostrils, I realised the only way I could expunge this fury was by battering my keyboard into submission.

Respectfully, Vote Leave, I would like to unsubscribe from future communications, and here’s why:

It is a pack of lies. Seriously, this is GCSE-level stuff. We as a country are about to take the biggest decision of several generations, one that could not feasibly be undone in my lifetime, and we’re being asked to do so on the basis of lies, half-truths, distortions and, in case that wasn’t enough to hoodwink you, a bit of old-fashioned racism to boot.

Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year

And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year

( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11620356/Emigration-nation-who-are-the-thousands-fleeing-Britain-each-year.html )

(but because they’re British, they’re called “Expatriots”). You can argue the toss about whether free movement of people within the EU is a good or a bad thing, but you cannot argue that it doesn’t work both ways. You can also argue the toss about whether immigration is a net good, but when a leading Leave campaigner comes out to say that immigration was only a positive until 2002 (when those nasty east Europeans were allowed in), I start to smell racism, and hear a dog-whistle.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/immigration-could-overwhelm-britain-says-pro-brexit-minister-andrea-leadsom

Lie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.

Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members - in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s - but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members?

Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t. See also Lie #6.

Lie #3: The EU has changed enormously since 1973

Thank you Sherlock; so have most places. I almost gave you a pass on this one, until I noticed the rather disingenuous claim about needing to prop up the Euro… erm, we’re exempt from Eurozone bailouts. Next.

Lie #4: EU law over-rides UK law

You almost had me on this one, but you need to look at the small print… immigration, counter-terrorism, prisoner voting… thaey are not ECJ decisions, but ECHR decisions. And that is a totally different story. Excuse me while I go off on a tangent…

What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights, membership of which is a precondition of EU membership. They would instead replace the Convention with a British version - telling called “rights and responsibilities” - which would defeat the entire principle of universal human rights that we the UK helped to forge. Namely, that regardless what the government of a particular country thinks at any given time you are entitled to be treated with dignity.

Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory. In doing so, they did nothing illegal but breached every standard of human decency. So after that, we decided it would be a good idea to write down that “standard of human decency” just in case anyone was in any doubt.

So if you belive Lie #4 on the basis of the examples they offer there, then you are falling for one of the bigger porkies of human history.

Lie #5: The EU costs us £350m a week

This isn’t so much a lie as a cluster-lie. It’s several lies packed into one big one. Let me break it down a little:

Lie #5.1 £350m a week.

Which doesn’t count a) the rebate, b ) the funds we receive in EU grants for projects we’d otherwise have to fund out of government spending.

Lie #5.2 Enough to build a new hospital…

Spare me. Frankly, if you fall for this one you deserve all you get. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Nigel Farage the defenders of the NHS and British public services? Despite their track records in government and / or stated public positions to the contrary?

Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent

Rubbish, because…

Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels…

Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament, which is so democratic it actually gives anti-EU parties such as UKIP disproportionately more seats than their share of vote entitles them to. For example, in 2014 UKIP got 25% of the vote in the UK, and received 35% of the UK’s seats. In the British elections to the Holy Seat of Democracy the following year, they received 1m more votes and took home a paltry one seat.

Lie #5.5 … not by the people we elect

This is not technically a lie. They should be decided by the people we elect, but the ****ers never turn up.

( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-european-parliament-votes-of-any-party-in-the-eus-28-countries-10316962.html )

Lie #5.6 [On the reverse they equate this figure to £19bn a year]

£19bn a year is about 2.4% of the UK government’s annual £770bn spending. So turn that into household budgeting… imagine you earn a typical salary of £35k, meaning you take home about £2,100 a month. The equivalent would be a subscription that cost you £51.66 a month. So, on a par with your gym membership or Sky Sports subscription.

Lie #5.7 We get less than half of that back

49.2 % actually. That’s worse than Spain, which just about breaks even, and certainly much worse than Poland which contributes -22%. But compared to Germany, which only gets back 39%, we’re doing pretty well. More here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

Lie #6 You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it

First bit’s true. Switzerland’s a really bad example though. Why choose Switzerland when it undermines your argument so badly? Switzerland and Norway are part of the wider European Free Trade area, which allows them free access to the common market in return for accepting a few conditions like freedom of movement for EU citizens… which kind of undermines your racist fearmongering from Lie #1.

And as for all UK firms having to obey EU rules, are these the rules you want to emancipate us from?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgaiTdWoAAhYvD.jpg

Lie #7 While we’re in the EU we can’t negotiate our own trade deals

Two points in response to this: 1) the USA has already said that negotiating a trade deal with the UK wouldn’t be a priority, and 2) most small businesses don’t do import / export. There you’re just re-hashing lie #6.

Lie #8 There are risks in voting either way

Experts, politicians and business are divided. I’ll give you politicians, and maybe give you busin… nah, who am kidding? This is Captain Redbeard Rum’s “opinion is divided on the subject" which he clarified as "all the other Captains say it is, I say it isn’t.”

Lie #9 [special Bonus Racist Dog Whistle]

What the hell are Syria and Iraq doing on this diagram? Are they applying for EU membership too?

So no, all in all, my mind’s made up, and I think you can save yourself some postage by taking me off the list.

I'm guessing you take everything Remain say as gospel?

 

Both sides are guilty of the most enormous, disingenuous hyperbole. Most sensible people don't believe much of what either side says and will base their decision on their 'gut feeling' as to how much they think the EU looks after their individual interests and how much they trust the EU to look after UK interests.

 

With regard to Turkey joining the EU, ask yourself one question: will Turkey (and those other countries) join the EU BEFORE we have another referendum on our membership of the EU? If the answer is 'yes' then it is fair to consider it as part of your decision making process for how you vote on Thursday, if the answer is No, then how can you be so sure?

This is a quote from the UK governments Ankara embassy webpage (http://www.gov.uk/government/world/organisations/british-embassy-ankara):

"Our network of posts in Turkey, including the British Embassy in Ankara and our Consulate General in Istanbul, develop and maintain relations between the UK and Turkey. We work on a wide range of issues including Turkey’s bid to join the European Union, the economy, energy policy and international security.

 

We have a dedicated team working on projects to improve Turkey’s prospects of joining the EU. We are improving ties between British and Turkish companies to ensure that we meet the target set by the British prime minister and his Turkish counterpart in 2010 to double bilateral trade by 2015."

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I'm guessing you take everything Remain say as gospel?

 

Nope. I've read a lot from both. Neither side have been completely candid but when you scrape away the leave campaigns BS; their sole argument is immigration and I'm not a xenophobic, bigoted racist.

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The leave campaign lost all credibility when they insinuated that Syria and Iraq are likely to join the eu by highlighting them on a 'map' of likely joiners, talk about targeting the uneducated. I have no doubt that there as been selective truths on both sides but that is so blatant BS. Taking the figures it works out at about £20 pp/pa which is a lot less than the cost of a visa or the increase in the cost of holiday insurance on a personal level.

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With regard to Turkey joining the EU, ask yourself one question: will Turkey (and those other countries) join the EU BEFORE we have another referendum on our membership of the EU? If the answer is 'yes' then it is fair to consider it as part of your decision making process for how you vote on Thursday, if the answer is No, then how can you be so sure?

This is a quote from the UK governments Ankara embassy webpage (http://www.gov.uk/government/world/organisations/british-embassy-ankara):

"Our network of posts in Turkey, including the British Embassy in Ankara and our Consulate General in Istanbul, develop and maintain relations between the UK and Turkey. We work on a wide range of issues including Turkey’s bid to join the European Union, the economy, energy policy and international security.

 

We have a dedicated team working on projects to improve Turkey’s prospects of joining the EU. We are improving ties between British and Turkish companies to ensure that we meet the target set by the British prime minister and his Turkish counterpart in 2010 to double bilateral trade by 2015."

 

Turkey have been trying to join for nigh on thirty years. Membership of the EU requires 35 'hurdles' to be jumped before entry. In those nigh on thirty years, Turkey has met only two of the thirty five credentials.

Also, Turks, historically, tend to migrate to Germany IIRC.

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I'm loving the fallout from Warsi today.

All these leave folk claiming that they never saw her campaigning, then a journalist tweets them a pic of them with her at a leave event.

Then you have Farage defending his comments that Jo Cox death was bad timing for the leave momentum.

I need to buy shares in butterkist....

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Nope. I've read a lot from both. Neither side have been completely candid but when you scrape away the leave campaigns BS; their sole argument is immigration and I'm not a xenophobic, bigoted racist.

It's the same when you scrape away the Remain BS; their sole argument is that leaving will result in recession, WW3 and the breakdown of civilisation as we know it. No positive reasons for staying at all (because there aren't any of course).

 

Also, you don't have to be xenophobic, bigoted and racist to have concerns about immigration. Many people are concerned at the effect on public services and their local communities. Remain want to paint anyone who questions un-controlled immigration as xenophobic, bigoted and racist, but to do so demonstrates a staggeringly blinkered and naive view and will hopefully be the reason Remain lose on Thursday and Cameron and Osborne are toast on Friday,

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Opel have already said the Astra would be unviable to manufacture in Ellesmere if we leave.

I'm not sure there would be much of a reason to buy an Astra if it wasn't produced here, so Vauxhall/Opel would effectively be pulling out of the UK market. I can't see that - it's just more Remain sabre rattling BS.

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