DIY camber adjustable ball joints

[sambb]

Hi,

 

I'm over on the vw watercooled forums and have a vw polo gti 9N3 my2006. I've just started a little mod that you guys may be interested in since my car has the same control arms as your Fab.    I'm not sure if you guys have already have done this (I know that Fab 2 guys have but they have different control arms)  then I'm all ears and would be keen for any input, otherwise if it works hopefully it'll work on your cars too.

 

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f127/diy-adjustable-camber-ball-joints-mod-114195.html

 

sam

[Tech1e]

Don't think we can see the pics. May need to be registered and logged in.

[sambb]

hmm yeah that's probably the problem. Go on ... join.

[sepulchrave]

Brutal bodgery, not a chance I'd do that mod, there's so little metal between the back holes that they could tear through easily.

To be honest, once you've lowered the Fab there's plenty of negative camber on the front anyway, it's the back that needs some to match.

If the MOT man spots that horror you'll be buying new standard wishbones and ball joints to get it to pass.

[sambb]

classic... The audi ball joint flange is wider, longer  and thicker than the original so even though it sticks further out it is a much stiffer flange plus it fits far deeper/wider into the control arm casing spreading the loads much better than the original ball joint. If you squeeze the flat open ends of the control arm, you can flex it with your fingers easily. The flat central sheet metal is not what adds strength to the control arm its the ribbing and pressed curves - like how fragile an egg is if you stick your finger into it versus trying to crush it end to end between two hands.  A couple of little holes in the flat section is not going to do anything to the structural integrity of the arm. The bolt holes only locate the ball joint laterally but the loads are carried in the walls of the arm.    Yes the central hole could tear through to the next hole..... if 3 fully torqued bolts decided to move simultaneously - but has your standard ball joint ever just let go and shifted. It has undersized bolts that go into oversized holes in the ball joint flange that just slop around until tightened.

[sepulchrave]

classic... The audi ball joint flange is wider, longer  and thicker than the original so even though it sticks further out it is a much stiffer flange plus it fits far deeper/wider into the control arm casing spreading the loads much better than the original ball joint. If you squeeze the flat open ends of the control arm, you can flex it with your fingers easily. The flat central sheet metal is not what adds strength to the control arm its the ribbing and pressed curves - like how fragile an egg is if you stick your finger into it versus trying to crush it end to end between two hands.  A couple of little holes in the flat section is not going to do anything to the structural integrity of the arm. The bolt holes only locate the ball joint laterally but the loads are carried in the walls of the arm.    Yes the central hole could tear through to the next hole..... if 3 fully torqued bolts decided to move simultaneously - but has your standard ball joint ever just let go and shifted. It has undersized bolts that go into oversized holes in the ball joint flange that just slop around until tightened.

 

Sorry bloke, I'm a proper engineer and I'm not buying it.

Those holes that remain after the bodgery will rust out and enlarge over a couple of winters, that double back hole will tear through and braking and cornering forces will cause the ball joint to twist back and forth in the slotted outer holes until it lets go because the locating dimples are not there to restrain it.

You're removing strength in three critical areas of the wishbone AND slotting the holes in the balljoint, it's a recipe for a bad accident I'm afraid, probably when you're trying to do an emergency stop a couple of years from now.

[Tech1e]

Is it time for popcorn?

I've not seen the pics but it doesn't fill me with the greatest of hope for how it might look..

Problem is I work in chassis build/development and have to go through crash test and type approval. This kinda thing always makes me a little nervous as you have no idea how this will perform in a given situation.

[sambb]

If you've looked at the stock setup before, the dimples do nothing structurally. They are just protrusions that help you guide the ball joint flange back into the control arm end if you decide to separate the hub from the control arm without knocking out the ball joint. The flange does not seat against them at all when installed. They do not stop the joint from twisting back and forth. The flange free floats inside the control arm ends and is fixed in place when you bolt it up and it is sandwhiched only. Like I said the OE control arms holes are oversized relative to the bolts used and so they are too on the flange. There is tonnes of slop until you trighten them up. That's why if you separate the hub here you need to realign precisely because of the sheer amount of movement there.  If the modded setup is going to shift when tight, then so to would the OE setup. If anything the mounting pads that surround each slot on the audi joints offer much more surface area for the compression sandwhich fit than the OE ones do. I  haven't seen any rounded out holes in the ends of OE control arms where all this movement you expect to see would be happeneing. The bolt is not going to tear through if there is no movement. Valid re: the chance of corrosion but I have stripped back and repainted the control arms and I'm in Australia, not salty UK roads so I'm not fussed in that regard.

If I get really worried i'll just weld/infill those holes, and if it turns out that I have adjustment in spades, then I can always order another set of audi joints that I haven't extended the slots on.

Each to there own. I'm shooting for 1.75 degrees total, that's 3/4 degree extra. I mean we are not talking much here.

[faboka vrs]

Why not just buy the adjustable top mounts of Ebay? Would rather do that then bodge the wishbones although I've not seen the picture.

[sambb]

wasn't aware there are any. K-mac here in australia do adjustable tops that cost $600. There are a couple of brands of coilovers that come with adjustable tops, but no stand alone bolt in ones. What is there that's available for the fabia 1?   I'm all ears because anything that fits your car may fit mine.

[sambb]

and P.S if you lower the car to the extent that you have lots of static negative camber and rely on that for your handling then I could pretty well guarantee that your ball joints will be sitting higher than your inner LCA pivots and you will have butchered your roll centre location. Then  when you throw it into a corner the car will actually roll more than it would have previously and with a few degrees of body roll and a few inches into your suspension travel, the crappy camber gain characteristics of our hubs will have eaten through all the static camber you had by lowering the car and it will probably be going positive. Not to mention that your tie rod ends are probably pointing up at the sky too.

[Breezy_Pete]

I reckon that'll be OK.

As you rightly understand, a bolted joint doesn't rely on the sides of the bolt fitting tightly against the holes they go through to keep things from moving, it's the friction between the bolted-together surfaces, generated by the preload in the bolts. If a bolted joint does move then the fastener(s) will fatigue and fail in no time. This doesn't seem to happen with the OEM set-up, so the bolts/nut-thingy seem to provide adequate clamp force to prevent any such movement.

Edited 26 July, 2016 by Wino

[theezenutz]

Would you not be better by trying to relocate the geometry of the top strut rather than messing about with the wishbones?

 

I only say because its a well known mod on the Pulsar if you already have top adjustable plates, they achieve it by rotating the top plate and re-drilling one of the bolt holes increasing camber but more importantly castor.

 

This is from the guy who originally did the mod now many others have done it with much success I would post the link but you'll need to be a member to see so I'll put up a little bit of blurb.

 

This is an old thread but I thought I'd post up where I finished on this.

By calulation it adds around 2degs of castor. It improves stability, helps turn in and helps -ve camber gain whilst turning.

You move the strut as close in board as possible and adjust your camber at the bottom. (D2, Camber bolt or my coarse camber mod) The disadvantages are you need to drill and cut a few things and get a re-alignment done. I revesred the sides on my whitleine ARB and went from 3 holes to 2 so it would fit again.

Whiteline have started selling something they call a Max-C camber/castor plate. This does the same thing but with more bling. The marketing is nonsense about taking a car to a track and move the plate to the max position as you will find your toe out and your wheels pointing in funny directions. You will need a re-alignment whenever you change your camber or your castor.

I've since cut my towers to bits and fabricated some plates to add a further 2 degs of castor but the average owner will find this too extreme to do and IMHO may not like the results.

For most people I think this extra hole mod is simple enough and gives sufficient improvement to recommend to others.

 

Also from another well known member.

 

I’d like to add to this if I may. :-D

As for all that’s been posted above I would like to add to this information about the modification and the actual overall improvements.

A couple of weeks ago I spent my bank holiday in a workshop with Jim and Stu as they offered their advice (and some tools) to allow my attempt with adding some caster to my suspension.

For something that’s free over a whiteline kit that offers less but charges you your hard earned cash – it’s a no brainier really. :lol:

So I set out and drilled the holes in my car as well as my strut brace and within 20mins I had done one, 15mins on the other side and that was done.
So easy it was it to do I felt like I could do it again just to feel like I’ve spent long enough doing something on the car, as we know most jobs on the GTiR take about 6 months!

Anyway – once everything was reconnected we set my cambers:
o/s -1.9 and n/s -1.9 deg camber, Toe was also set at 0.0 and that was it!

Granted not everyone has a the tools for a camber and toe, but any garage can sort that out for you ;-)

The Conclusion

With my camber correctly set-up and the caster mod complete I can honestly say that the handling is more improved.
I have a specific road section that I use that helps me test my car and see/feel any improvements; whether new products or settings have helped or changed the way the car works.
The difference is noticeable when cornering at lower speeds. 20-70mph is where the real gains are. I could carry more speed into the corners without having to worry about understeer. On the exit again I could comfortably put the power down earlier and the car felt more stable. The only area that I could feel to be on any issue was the tyres. I had to push them to understeer, but the actual handling grip and stability has improved to my delight.

Granted, I had to build up myself up slowly, nor have I tried changing my ARB settings as yet, they are still on medium. Roundabouts used to be more of an inconvenience but now I can’t get enough of them, fast in and fast out and the car doesn’t even break out in a sweat.

Would I recommend this, yes I would.
I think Jims work has been lost/overlooked here and something so simple and CHEAP could help our cars handle better.
I’ve really appreciated both Jim and Stu’s help and I would seriously consider looking into performing this action if you’re a keen driver down the B roads or trackday enthusiast. 8)

However, if you’re just going to rev your car on McDonalds restaurant car park all night for the little girlies then ignore all the posts above!

Edited 26 July, 2016 by theezenutz

[faboka vrs]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222172225547

[theezenutz]

^ Job done just need to break out your wallet.

[Tech1e]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222172225547

I think my belly just fizzed.

[Picko98]

But they are for stock springs and need an internal spring size of 80mm

Not all coilovers will be that size however if you are friendly with an engineering firm they could knock you up some spacers for material money and a few beers

Seen these a while ago

[Tech1e]

Every set of coil overs I have seen have worked with standard top mounts and bearings though (other that BC racing).

[faboka vrs]

I think my belly just fizzed.

I aim to please I would have bought a set but I've already got a set of new top mounts and bearings to fit :(

[sambb]

Thanks for putting that up Faboka VRS.    I reckon  a few of the guys on my side will be checking into these for sure to see if they'll fit  our strut towers.  Also the fact that they are for standard springs is awesome. The only things really available here in Australia are for coilover diameters. thx

 

Theezenutz ill look into the strut top hole mod too and see if whiteline (an oz company) do those max-c plates here. They are not listed for my car but could be adapted I suppose. This would work great as the end game is to get my camber at the bottom and my castor at the top.

 

Well I got the  audi TT joints in and onto the car. The thread that I posted at the top has been updated.  If you can't see the pics, join so that you can because the site has a skoda fab section too!

 

appreciate the ideas and input. Thanks fellas

[theezenutz]

Here is a couple of pics.

 

 

 

But don’t be fooled here, I’ve not tuned them about 5-10mm they have tuned so that the threads on the coilovers have rotated to the next hole round, therefore requiring the drilling of a new hole

 

You can see where he has drilled another hole you can also see how the strut including the top plate has been rotated at an angle.

 

Not sure if it will work for the Fabia but to be honest they are similar cars in the fact that in standard form they don't handle particularly well, they are both front heavy and tend to want to understeer but with a few changes here and there they can be improved a lot. Worth a look into fella especially if you have access to wheel alignment equipment.

[Tech1e]

The Fabia doesn't have an open topped strut turret so you would have to cut that out.

[theezenutz]

How do the adjustable top mounts that Faboka posted fit? They seem quite similar maybe a smaller diameter but the adjustable part will still need to be accessible so that you can adjust them easily.

[Tech1e]

You can pop the cap off and get in, no where near the hole required for those type of mounts though.

[faboka vrs]

To me the adjustment looks to work from the 3 top mount bolts. Think this will mean you won't see any markers when moving it. Could be totally wrong though