Battery problem

[rum4mo]

No, I said "good luck getting any meaningful numbers", to be fair you went off half-cocked. I wasn't looking for an argument.

 

 

As usual, on this forum, it is you that is taking the "I'm never wrong" line, I was only explaining why I responded to your posting - I think that you will find that is all I did if you look at what you wrote and what I posted after that.

[sepulchrave]

As usual, on this forum, it is you that is taking the "I'm never wrong" line, I was only explaining why I responded to your posting - I think that you will find that is all I did if you look at what you wrote and what I posted after that.

 

Be serious, I didn't say anything wrong, I responded mildly, it was you that jumped on me, not vice versa. What's right is right.

[Clunkclick]

Gents, note below extracts from two of the two documents that came with the meter (2016 vintage)

 

Verbatim from the  325 Fluke Quick Reference Guide. . . . . "DC Current with Jaw", Range . . . . . . (40.00, 400.0) A , Resolution (0.01, 0.1A), accuracy . . . . . 2.0% +/- 5 digits.

 

So,  I take that to mean that, using the jaw, it measures two ranges, 0-40 amps and 0-400 amps, with resolutions of  1/100 of an amp on the 0-40 amp range and 1/10 of an amp on the 0-400 amp range.

 

Verbatim from the Fluke Corporation Statement of Calibration Practices ( ISO 9001)

 

"Fluke Corporation certifies this product was calibrated with applicable calibration procedures during the manufacturing process. Fluke's certified ISO - 9001 quality system controls these procedures.

 

The measurement standards and instruments used during the calibration of this product are traceable to SI units through internationally recognised measurement standards."

 

 

I applied the clamp to the negative lead of the battery in order to get the measurements I stated above.

 

 

In slower time, I will check the measurements so obtained against my 1970's vintage Fluke, but its more likely that the latter's calibration will have slipped over the last 40 years.

 

 

Back on topic

 

I left the battery off-charge overnight and the voltage this morning is 12.9 Volts - that's good. I switched to the charging mode last night  to re-condition (After half an hour ot rest) and the voltage across the battery terminals  under charge only went up 0.1 volts from 14.2 to 14.3 volts.

 

I'm going to do the equivalent of a deep discharge test  (That the motor trade do) by re-installing the battery, connecting a voltmeter across the terminals and then cranking the engine.. So that should tell me whether the battery is fit for further use i.e. an observed voltage below 9 volts whilst cranking the engine would tend to indicate that the battery has lost capacity - SAE J537 specifies that a battery with a CCA reading of 500A can deliver 500A at –18C (0F) for 30 seconds without dropping below 7.2 volts. My battery's rated at 610CCA  and will be tested at 20C, hence the higher expectation.
 

 

Nick

Edited 3 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Looks promising.

 

At 11.00 the stage 6 lights came on the C-Tek charger - one stage short of fully charged..

 

Voltage across the battery terminals went up to a whopping 14.8 volts (From 14.3 in stage 5) for the next hour eventually falling back to 13.4 volts.

 

I was a little concerned about that as I understood that voltages above 14.4 Volts damaged lead acid batteries through over-gassing and rcausing the electrolyte to boil.

 

However,  my concern s were misplaced as the battery I am charging is lead/calcium :-

 

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/search-by-vehicle/varta-d15.html

 

 

And apparently these can tolerate and respond better  to higher voltage, as this series of posts from a US boat owning forum seems to indicate (Post # 5 in particular)

 

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?362114-Battery-Charging-Absorption-Voltage-Calcium-Calcium-Batteries

 

If anybody knows about the problems with batteries associated with low use and extended periods of dis-use, its them.

 

 

Stage 7 light (Green) has just come on (12:35), indicating that the battery is fully charged.

 

Total charge time has been about  13 hours.

 

I'll leave it on for another day, so it gets well into the maintenance charge routine (Stage 8). From what I understand there is no chance of overcharging with the C-Tek.

 

As the one of the posts in the boating forum says, why the **** can't regulators on alternators be made "Smart" in the same way as the C-Tek and similar devices.

 

I've got better things to do than waste 24 hours of my life every two years doing this ****e.

 

And with the demographic timebomb already taking effect, isn't about time the dimos in the motor industry took account of the fact that there is going to be a widening gap in the usuage patterns between private vehicles and commercial fleets, by modifying the design of some components destined for the private market.

 

 

Afterthought/reminder

 

Once I've re-installed the battery, I need to allow at least 30 minutes before measuring the drain, as the electronic convenience unit (Gimmicky Inconvenience in effect) which controls things like the courtesy light, windows, etc  continues operating even after the ignition key is withdrawn and the doors closed. I hadn't appreciated that.

 

Nick

Edited 3 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

Contemporary powertrain management systems do have a charge conditioning module to control the battery charge levels.

[rum4mo]

When I had starting trouble with a 2009 Ibiza, I got lazy and with other uses in mind, (better car sleeping in the garage for long periods) bought a CTEK charger-tester with some LoveToShop vouchers I just had to use up. After running the reconditioning profile on the Ibiza battery using the CTEK, I refitted the battery and used the CTEK as a cranking tester which which just gives a GREEN, AMBER, RED indication of battery performance while crankng the engine, the CTEK relies on the car battery for its power and its lower operating voltage is 9 volts (I think), so when I started the Ibiza with the freshly re-con'd battery, the CTEK switched off, which was a bit annoying, but indicated that the voltage had dropped below 9 volts, and so indicated a useless (for that engine) battery. At least that made me grab a new Bosch Silver one from Costco(and used the CTEK to charge it fully) - it managed an AMBER "result" on the cranking test. All this battery issue stuff ended up being, for that car, a bit of a distraction as the module under the steering wheel was wakening up the BCM by sending changing voltages back when the car was locked up sometimes, so the battery,even the new battery did sometimes get discharged sometimes to a level that would not allow the engine to start - very very annoying as I did not consider that that could happen. Still mean to buy a cheapish moving coil volt meter - handy for checking minimum cranking voltage as things happen too quickly for a DVM even a Fluke to respond to.

 

Edit:- actually that quote from the Fluke spec is a bit optimistic, while that current clamp on 0-40A DC will have a display resolution of 0.01A that does not mean that in use, it can discriminate between 0.000A and 0.010A in real world conditions, maybe it can discriminate between 25.11A and 25.10A - but I'd doubt it when you take all the measurement uncertainty into consideration - it just means that the smallest display unit on that scale is 0.01A.  After checking Fluke specs, I once bought as a calibrated work tool, a Multifunction thing, Fluke claimed on certain TC simulator and reading modes, that it could "work" for -100C, for an instrument checking/setting I needed to input -87C - it could not do that, Fluke sales answer was that not many people asked for that and these meters were just checked over what they expected to it be used for, so that "sub reference standard" unit ended up getting a "no cal" label on it which defeated the purpose of buying it, at least it has now found a good home!

Edited 3 September, 2016 by rum4mo

[rum4mo]

Be serious, I didn't say anything wrong, I responded mildly, it was you that jumped on me, not vice versa. What's right is right.

 

I'll let others, if they can be bothered, be the judge of that, let's end this here!  I contributed to this thread to offer help not look for a boring argument, as I suspect most other do also.

[sepulchrave]

I'll let others, if they can be bothered, be the judge of that, let's end this here!  I contributed to this thread to offer help not look for a boring argument, as I suspect most other do also.

 

Ok, AFT too.

[fabdavrav]

It takes way longer than a nice 1hr motorway jaunt to fully charge a battery, just another "false" quick fix.

 

I have walked to work for the past 14yrs so car only gets used for long journeys & I always once every couple of months plug my C-TEK in & leave overnight & do about a good 16hr charge.

 

My new car has various other electronic modules etc which shut off after 30mins, but have to close the bonnet as the MDF shows bonnet open status which sods things up!...aarrggghhhh 

[rum4mo]

Oh, I'll need to check my car and wife's new Polo for that - before the time comes for needing to check "sleeping current drain" - actually I have checked the "sleeping drain current" on wife's new Polo during my looking into why Ibiza was draining its battery, so either the Polo monitoring works differently to your Golf(?) or something else as I got a suitably low drain figure, now you're making me needing to check if the warnings come on with the ignition key out and doors shut!

 

I also don't like using any of my cars for short journeys, for that and many other reasons - but sometimes that is not a popular way of thinking I find, now what we need are sensible small electric cars at a sensible price for using as local runabouts- ah well, nice idea!

[Clunkclick]

Left it off charge overnight and the voltage across the terminals (Off-charge) early this morning showed 13v .

 

Prima facie that would seem OK.

 

However, when  I  re-connected the C-Tek to the battery at 0900, it resumed charging at stage 4 (I.e. bulk charge) - not stage 7 where it finished yesterday. So its lost a substantial amount of the charge overnight, even though the standalone output voltage is good at 13 volts. However, it only took half the time (3.5 hours) to re-charge back to stage 7 (Green light) that it did yesterday. Does this mean that successive re-conditioning charges may bring the battery back entirely ?

 

Anyway, on the figures, it looks like two cells may have gone (Usually its the cells nearest the + terminal) .Thing is, as the battery is rated at 610 CCA, it could probably loose two cells (Out of the six) and still knock out 400 CCA  at an acceptable voltage, which would be enough, just about, to crank the engine to start.

 

As a previous poster has suggested,  with reasonable and frequent use, it could probably go on to the winter before the cold would kill it off.

 

Wouldn't that be a surprise if Calcium/lead batteries had an  increased susceptibility to low use and reduced life span - no surprise to the marketeers of "Progress", I bet.   And all because manufacturers design is targeted at fleet use and saving the pennies.

 

And my journies are not short (Usually 30 mile) it just the frequency, once to twice a week. You telling me that a car battery can't get a decent charge in an hour a day ? That's the length of the average return  commute. That was the length of my commute, when i was working 5 days a week and I certainly didn't have any batteries which failed in two and a half years then. It was the frequency of use that prevented that.

 

Manufacturers will have to start thinking about this issue as the private use bods who are retirees increases in number and a lot of them are on lease -purchase contracts inc servicing.

 

And, no doubt, you won't be able to get a lead/antinomy battery for love . . or money. 

 

 

Nick

Edited 4 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Well, i never :-

 

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2078533

 

Calcium batteries need at least 15 volts to charge properly . . . . . They kept that one quiet, didn't they ?

 

 

Nick

[rum4mo]

I might have picked the wrong time to buy my CTEK as shortly after I bought it, they started quoting suitable for EFB and AGM ones, wife's new Polo has EFB.

 

I'm guessing that your CTEK does not have a built in battery "charge level" test function, handy to see if it had dropped off a lot over night maybe - as if the CTEK found that it was now "not good", it would start charging it when switched back on. I think that my CTEK has, for charge test level checking "brilliant" "okay" "rubbish" - my words not CTEK's!

 

Anyway, if you suspect that your battery has lost a cell or two, be aware, that while taken in isolation, this mighty not look like being a major problem, but all these cells are connected in series and what can limit a battery's ability to deliver current, is its internal resistance.  In the situation where you have "lost" a cell, unless the effective resistance across that cell is 0.0000000000001Ohms (for instance), it will seriously derate that battery, and obviously if that "lost" cell has infinitive resistance then the PD across that battery will be "nothing".

 

Edit:- I think that if you were to go by the open circuit voltage of a battery as the only way of assessing its present charge level, you need to do a couple of things, first wait until it has cooled down to ambient and wait until it is at a stable state as batteries will not hold the "just after switched off " voltage for long as that is an over charged false state. Using internet sites to source open circuit voltage/charge %age charts seems a bit hit and miss, even if you pick the correct chart for that battery's chemistry.

Edited 4 September, 2016 by rum4mo

[Clunkclick]

According to Haynes, across-the-terminals, off-charge, voltage of 12.6 volts, in lead/antinomy battery terms, means fully charged.

Who knows what it is for lead/calcium - as I said I got 13volts early AM and that was, as later events proved, below full capacity.

From what I understand, 80% capacity of rated capacity, when fully-charged, used to be considered the limit of battery life. In a six cell configuration, that means to be useful, the battery can only tolerate the loss of one cell and in a 60 amp hour, 610 CCA battery that means a threshold of 50 amp hours 500 CCA approx.

The publicity blurb says that Lead/calcium are better for short journeys and do not loose their charge as easily as lead/antinomy. Hmmmm ? That's one 5 year warranty that's going to be claimed against.

But before doing so, I'm going to give Skoda Customer service an opportunity to get a technical opinion as to what sort of replacement battery would be best for my car.

Remembering of course that this car has been in for main dealer service on at least two occasions since the current battery was installed, without attracting any comment.

Be interesting to know what life people are getting out of lead calcium batteries nowadays. Judging by that Australian example I quoted above, its pretty poor and is well down on lead/antinomy. my experience was that Lead/antinomy batteries could be restored, even when well depleted.

this has got the potential to line up as another select committee interview with the motor industry, coming out of it looking ver, very silly, underlining the fact that what works well on the back of fag packet (Lab) doesn't always translate into useful or safe products.

Nick

Edited 4 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

My old 2000 VW Passat 4Motion, which tended to be used every other week for 5 days to work, lasted for 11 years 75K miles roughly. Wife old 2002 VW Polo 1.4 petrol, which tended to be used 6 days a week for most of its life, still had its original battery when disposed of at 13 years 105K miles. Older daughter's 2009 SEAT Ibiza 1.4 petrol used to get used 6 days a week for its first almost 4 years of its life, then for the next 3 years used at least twice a week unless the weather included deep snow, it asked for a new battery at about 6 years old - but this was seen as typical of a SEAT as dealers did change some batteries under warranty (Exide made in Spain)  None of these cars tended to get used much for short journeys - work runs were roughly 10 miles each way.

 

Prior to buying VAG products, wife's Fiesta batteries tended to last about 4 years before they tended to die and not just reduce performance, I can't say if these Fords had calcium lead batteries though.

 

Edit:- I'd doubt if any dealer from any marque would bother too much about the brand of battery fitted when a car came through their doors, unless of course the customer had problems that pointed to an inappropriate battery having been fitted to it - or that dealer found a problem which could be due to the battery type/model which was in that car.

Edited 4 September, 2016 by rum4mo

[sepulchrave]

Calcium batteries are designed for a long shelf life at the stockist when new, they have NO advantage to you the end-user whatsoever, in fact they tend to have thinner plates which warp easier when heavily discharged. Hateful.

[Clunkclick]

Calcium batteries are designed for a long shelf life at the stockist when new, they have NO advantage to you the end-user whatsoever, in fact they tend to have thinner plates which warp easier when heavily discharged. Hateful.

So, not a good idea to take a  lead calcium suspected of being on the way out to a garage/motor factors for a deep discharge voltage test - my recollection of those was they caused the lead/antinomy batteries to bubble and squeak a bit ? Better to use one of these momentary discharge meters -even if they have a 9v floor on operation ?

 

Nick

Edited 5 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

It had 16.5 hours on charge yesterday, with the stage 7 lights (Full charge) illuminating at 12:30 pm and sticking at that level until 01:30 am this morning. Final on-charge, voltage was 13.4 volts. It was then disconnected from the charger and the off-charge voltage, across-the-terminals, was 13.1 volts

 

At 09:00 this morning, the Voltage across the terminals, off-charge,was 13.0 volts.

 

When the leads were attached,  and charging started, got the same deal as Sunday,

 

The C-Tek went straight to stage 4 (Bulk charge)  and was showing showing an across-the-terminals voltage of 14.5 volts. By 10:30 the C-Tek had reached stage 6 and was showing 15.3 volts across-the-terminals and by 12:50 it was at Stage 7 (Fully charged) and showing 13.6 volts.

 

It looks as it it lost  up to 19.15 amp hours of charge overnight (My C-Tek charger delivers max 5 amps @ 3.75 hours charging time = 19.15 amps). That's about 30% of the capacity (19.15/63 amp hours (Rated capacity of battery)) - nearly 2 cells worth of storage capacity are being lost post-charge.That would take it below the 80% floor of rated capacity,  below which the battery is only fit for chucking.

 

Interestingly, from the wrtten instructions that came with the battery, it says apply a trickle charge to the battery if the voltage falls below 12.3 volts - now if that were a lead/antinomy battery with uncompromised capacity, I understand  that  the 12.3 figure would equate to a 75% charge.

 

Put in a query with Skoda Customer Services asking what was the best battery size/ type for my vehicle, given current usuage,  and asking whether lead calcium was suitable.

 

I want hold my breath for a meaningful or speedy response.

 

I'm going to do the same with Varta and enquiring if it was normal for a lead/calcium battery, with a 5 year warranty,  to fail after two and a half years.

 

 

Nick

Edited 5 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

My old 2000 VW Passat 4Motion, which tended to be used every other week for 5 days to work, lasted for 11 years 75K miles roughly. Wife old 2002 VW Polo 1.4 petrol, which tended to be used 6 days a week for most of its life, still had its original battery when disposed of at 13 years 105K miles. Older daughter's 2009 SEAT Ibiza 1.4 petrol used to get used 6 days a week for its first almost 4 years of its life, then for the next 3 years used at least twice a week unless the weather included deep snow, it asked for a new battery at about 6 years old - but this was seen as typical of a SEAT as dealers did change some batteries under warranty (Exide made in Spain)  None of these cars tended to get used much for short journeys - work runs were roughly 10 miles each way.

 

Prior to buying VAG products, wife's Fiesta batteries tended to last about 4 years before they tended to die and not just reduce performance, I can't say if these Fords had calcium lead batteries though.

 

Edit:- I'd doubt if any dealer from any marque would bother too much about the brand of battery fitted when a car came through their doors, unless of course the customer had problems that pointed to an inappropriate battery having been fitted to it - or that dealer found a problem which could be due to the battery type/model which was in that car.

Both the previous batteries, A Bosch (From new) and a lesser capacity varta did 6 and 5 years respectively when i was doing M-F work commute of no more than 12 miles return, with little weekend usage and 5,000 miles added to odometer every year. That's near enough average, isn't ?

 

Your figures are exceptional. If I may be so bold, what was your average journey length of you and the rels ?

 

Nick

[Clunkclick]

Calcium batteries are designed for a long shelf life at the stockist when new, they have NO advantage to you the end-user whatsoever, in fact they tend to have thinner plates which warp easier when heavily discharged. Hateful.

Can you still get lead/antimony batteries ? If so, could you point me ?

 

Cheers.

 

Nick

[sepulchrave]

Can you still get lead/antimony batteries ? If so, could you point me ?

 

Cheers.

 

Nick

 

I believe that all automotive lead-acid batteries still have plates alloyed with antimony irrespective of calcium content, pure lead would simply be too soft to retain its structural integrity with such thin plates.

 

As ever, you get what you pay for, a more expensive battery will be better made, will last longer and will have a longer guarantee.

[Clunkclick]

I take it that the addition of calcium is something that wasn't done before and isn't just a marketing gymic  to justify the plastering of the logo for same everywhere ?

 

The Varta battery I've got is about £14 less than the equivalent Bosch (63 Amp hour, 610 CCA)- I may be wrong but I thought they were all made by Varta now and only some re-badged as Bosch.

 

 

Enquiry has now gone off to Varta as to the across-the-terminals voltage for a fully-charged D15. i 've also asked, given that a battery with a 5-Year warranty appears to have failed within 2.5 years, whether they have any more detailed instructions on the Care and maintenance of same other than "Trickle charge when the voltage falls below 12.3 volts". Hhhhrrrmp !

 

 

Nick

Edited 5 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

Both the previous batteries, A Bosch (From new) and a lesser capacity varta did 6 and 5 years respectively when i was doing M-F work commute of no more than 12 miles return, with little weekend usage and 5,000 miles added to odometer every year. That's near enough average, isn't ?

 

Your figures are exceptional. If I may be so bold, what was your average journey length of you and the rels ?

 

Nick

 

Monday to Friday was 14miles each way for me, 10miles each way for wife and 8 miles each way for daughter. The Polo battery did "feel" like it had gone through its final winter though, but as we were buying a new Polo I did not want to have to replace the battery as it was always okay though dying slowly! The Passat, maybe being used a bit less and once I really hammered the battery after replacing the petrol filter which caused issues as I ended up washing the oil out of the piston rings, now I know that can be an issue with V engines after excessive cranking! The only time that the Ibiza, because of a battery drain issue, discharged its new Bosch battery down to 8.75V, I did use a trickle charger to get it back up slowly, then used the CTEK on it.

[Clunkclick]

After being taken off-charge overnight, its the same deal as the previous two days.

Voltage off-charge, 13.1v, C-Tek resumes charging at Stage 4 (Bulk charge) and 14.4 volts. Again, its lost about 20 amp hour overnight, equivalent to two cells.

Its fairly certain now that those two cells are unlikely to regain capacity and this will no doubt be evidenced by poor cranking when I re-install it today.

No surprise that the E-mail response from Varta didn't really advance my understanding <Wink -private joke> :-

"Good Morning

A battery at full state of charge should be measuring 12.6 volts or higher.

If the battery is showing signs of failing then I can only advise that you contact the retailer that sold you the battery. They will be able to run tests on the battery to determine the causes of failure which I would not be able to determine over email.

Best regards

Key Account Representative - VARTA

Johnson Controls Power Solutions EMEA

Web: www.johnsoncontrols.com

Johnson Controls Batteries Limited

Suite 5, Building 6, Croxley Green Business Park, Hatters Lane, Watford, WD18 8YH

Johnson Controls Batteries Limited, Registered in England No. 982901. Registered Office: 2 The Briars, Waterberry Drive, Waterlooville, Hampshire, PO7 7YH. VAT number: 538865691"

Nick

[Clunkclick]

Refitted the battery in the car (Showing green light, Fully charged, C-Tek and 13.1 volts across-the-terminals off-charge).

 

Engine roared into life.

 

Fluke still showing a drain (Ignition off, doors closed, lights off) of 0.3 to 0.5 amps on the negative wire.

 

Checked out the boot and glove-box illumination  (Using my mobile camera) and that was switching on and off as it should.

 

Did another VCDS scan and all the errors that showed in the first scan came up. So I cleared them all and re-scanned and this error persisted in the ECU:-

 

18043 - Powertrain Data Bus

            P1635 - 35-00 - Missing Message from A/C Controller

 

I selected  "Delete all error codes" again and it came -up again in the following scan.

 

A quick scan of the web indicates that this is a common error across VAG AC systems - cured, apparently, as far as one Touraeg owner found,  by disconnecting the AC ground wire, starting the engine, switching off and re-connecting the ground wire.

 

A quicker way or sorting this, anyone ?

 

I still think the battery has lost capacity, so i'm going to get it tested.

 

Just means, that pro temp,  that i will be accompanied on all journies by a battery booster.

 

 

 

Nick

Edited 6 September, 2016 by Clunkclick