Battery problem

[rum4mo]

Yes I did tend to carry my booster battery pack around with me for a while when the Ibiza was playing silly beggers - never needed to use it, so that worked!

 

Johnson Controls are now into batteries - well well, did they get dumped out of the other things they got into like Facility Management I wonder, certainly they have come a long way in UK from just being the company that had to be called in to adjust (their) air temperature thermostats!

[Clunkclick]

Yes I did tend to carry my booster battery pack around with me for a while when the Ibiza was playing silly beggers - never needed to use it, so that worked!

 

Johnson Controls are now into batteries - well well, did they get dumped out of the other things they got into like Facility Management I wonder, certainly they have come a long way in UK from just being the company that had to be called in to adjust (their) air temperature thermostats!

They were one of my previous bosses bette noire. Access control that didn't.

Nick

[Clunkclick]

Car's been OK today.

Did a round robin trip of 10 miles with 4 intermediate stops. No problems restarting.

See what's its like tomorrow.

If that 0.5 amp drain persists overnight then that's probably sufficient, if two cells on the battery have lost their charge holding capacity, to cause starting problems tomorrow.

Given the persistent error code, I must just try pulling Fuse F12 (Fresh re-circulated air flap, air conditioning, navigation, telephone, gas discharge headlights) to see if that shuts down/reduces the drain. The re-circulated air falp and temperature flap have been the cause of VCDS error messages since I started home scanning.

Worryingly, I've noticed some metal debris (Looks like shiny metal electronic board mounting struts) that have appeared at the back of the diagnostic socket cavity - whether that's just fallen out of the instrument panel or is the result of a repair (Successful or otherwise)undertaken during the last service, who knows ?

Comme meme, I wasn't consulted or advised.

Still no detailed response from Skoda Customer Services.

 

Postscript

 

18043 - Powertrain Data Bus

            P1635 - 35-00 - Missing Message from A/C Controller

 

. . . doesn't show up on the list of fault codes on the Ross-Tech site. There is an 18042 & 18044, but no 18043.

Spoofer ?

 

Nick

Edited 6 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Usual corporate can't be arsed, money up and responsibility down  response from Skoda Customer Services:-

 

"Thank you for contacting ŠKODA UK, please accept my apologies for the delay in my response.

Apologies, I am unable to answer your query directly as all part enquires and quotations are handled by our Retailers.

Should you wish to obtain part information or obtain a quotation for any part, please contact your local ŠKODA Retailer with
your vehicle chassis number, where one of our highly trained Parts Advisors will be happy to assist you. Your Retailer‘s Parts
Department will also be able to advise if the parts you require are in stock.

Details of your local Retailer can be found on our website"

 

 

Must be a constant and enduring pleasure being a Skoda dealer.

 

For heavens sake, SKODA UK initially obtained  TYPE APPROVAL  with the DOT for this model (6Y3 chassis) did they manage o do so without presenting a specification  ?

 

Lazy buggers !

 

 

Nick

 

[rum4mo]

I think that the two flap motor faults you have are just systematic of a VAG car of that age, nothing more and will not be causing any other problems like battery drain, but I can't blame you for trying to remove them from the equation!

 

It's a bit annoying when you think that you have more than one problem both of which cause the same outcome, ie battery losing charge overnight. In the case of my Ibiza, the dying battery was only exposing the intermittent excess current drain, and the intermittent current drain only exposed the dying battery - that car could have lived without any money being spent on it if it only had one fault I think, such is life!

[Clunkclick]

I think that the two flap motor faults you have are just systematic of a VAG car of that age, nothing more and will not be causing any other problems like battery drain, but I can't blame you for trying to remove them from the equation!

 

It's a bit annoying when you think that you have more than one problem both of which cause the same outcome, ie battery losing charge overnight. In the case of my Ibiza, the dying battery was only exposing the intermittent excess current drain, and the intermittent current drain only exposed the dying battery - that car could have lived without any money being spent on it if it only had one fault I think, such is life!

Exactly, That's what I'm thinking. its a "Revealed" fault.

 

To sort the wood from the trees, currently waiting on delivery of  battery analyser.

 

Sorry to disappoint, the flap motor errors have been with the car from new ! Main dealers know what causes this but can't be arsed to fix it because its a ball-ache to get at and because there's  risk of stting off the passenger air-bag. Which could be costly to someone (More savvy commercialism ?

 

But every time i mention it  to my main dealer, they do  everything but replace the motors/mod the plastic flaps (Which of course are plastic  and are sticking because of a mismatch between the coeffcient of expansion (Under heating) of the plastic used in the flaps and that in the surrounding dashboard, causing the motors to overload. So, its a design/manufacturing fault).

 

With the bits of metal lying around, I wondering whether a third party has had a go at it, as its parked in a private car park out of my sight.

 

Postscript

 

One day Skoda are going to surprise us all by accepting responsibility for a problem, addressing it and providing a solution. Can you imagine the "Top-down"  downstream turnaround that would occur in dealers attitudes and the public perception of the brand (Something you put on cattle, init ?)

 

Nick

Edited 9 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Car hadn't been used for a week, so i thought I go out and give it a look over.

 

Looked good, car alarm was still operating, so the battery couldn't be completely dead.

 

The across-the-terminals voltage was 11.8 volts - that's totally discharged.

 

Long story short, before attempting to start it, I decided to test whether there was any substantial drain current going on.

 

I found, with the drivers door only open , the ignition key out and  everything else off (Including the courtesy light) there was a drain which was varying between 0.4 -.07amp and that when i removed fuse F41 (20 amp) the drain reduced to about 0.25 amp. This is the fuse for the windscreen wiper.

 

Anyway continued pulling and replacing all the other fuses to see if the drain would reduce further. And found it wouldn't.

"

Going back into the cabin I found that the windscreen wiper stalk had been left set to "Intermittent wipe" and when I reset this stalk to neutral, the drain reduced to 0.25 amp steady.

 

So it appears that  the intermittment wipe circuit was draining the  battery even with the ignition off and doors closed. However, the wiper motor wasn't being activated. Also there was no warning beep as you normally hear,  if say you leave the indicator stalk in close circuit.

 

So it looks as if there are two problems:-

 

1). The intermittment wipe circuit shouldn't be live with the ignition off - key out

 

2). There must be a short in the circuit before or in the wiper motor.

 

- The wiper motor works fine with the ignition key in and ignition on.

 

Any body else had this problem ?

 

Anyway, when i finished the fuse pulling, I started the car, no problem, ran it up and back the motorway. On return the across the terminals voltage was 13.1volts - about where it should be fully charged with the engine off..

 

So it looks like there are two problems, one or more cells on the battery are not holding a charge and there is a short in the intermittment wiper circuit.

 

 I see that there is a x contact relay (Item 18) which bypasses the ignition switch to feed the dashboard fusebox (Fuse 32) and then goes on to the wiper motor. Suspicion falls on this relay as stuck on or shorting to + ve and I seem to recall a VCDS error report consistently reporting a short to +ve on a relay. Ahah !. There is one other +ve feed into the wiper mot or and that comes from the wiper switch and in turn fuse F15 (10A) which, in turn, gets its +ve feed from the ignition switch - presumably the wiper motor only works when both of feeds i.e. thru F15 and F32 are live.

 

On the way to sorting ? I'll pull fuse 32 (10a) tomorrow and test the proposition.

 

 

Nick

 

 

[sepulchrave]

Jeez, just replace the battery already, this has been going on for WEEKS.

[Clunkclick]

Jeez, just replace the battery already, this has been going on for WEEKS.

2 - 3 of weeks. That's just a reflection of my current state of health more than delays in solving the problem.  1/2 a day's work lays me out for the following two during the hot weather. Roll-on autumn. 

 

The battery will need replacing before the cold weather, but I want to nail the drain fault first, because, with my current car usuage pattern i.e. once a week, a 0.4-0.7 amp drain will damage a new battery fairly quickly. As the relay fault has been appearing in VCDS reports since I started using Ross-Tech (10 years ago), the likelihood is that the drain played a significant part in screwing the current battery.

 

Have you come across this fault in Fab 1's before ?

 

Also, any advice where in the dash the x - relay is located and their retail availability would be appreciated !

 

 

Nick

 

 

Nick

 

Nick

Edited 13 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

The battery analyser arrived today. Hoorah !

 

When applied across the battery terminals (Car had been standing since use last night), with the battery leads disconnected, gave the following report:-

 

Good Battery

 

Volts               12.5 v

Measured       613 CCA

Rated              610CCA    

SOC: 88%       SOH: 84%

 

 

That would indicate that the battery has more than enough cold cranking capacity to start the 1.4 16v engine, in fact the measured CCA exceeds the rated CCA !

 

The voltage figure is consistent with the State Of Charge and the figure I get on the multimeter.

 

But the State of Health of the battery (Current capacity as a percentage of the design capacity) is just above the discard threshold (80%) @ 84%, so it  would seem to confirm that a couple of cells have lost capacity (Amounting to 16 % of total capacity) and,therefore it won't take much in the way of cold weather or another drain to take it below useable levels. So will carry a battery booster on journeys whilst the battery is in this state.

 

Since I located the most recent source of the battery drain (Intermittment wipe being left on), the Drain figure has reduced to  0.42 Amps when the convenience unit is operating following removal of the ignition key (About 20 minutes) and 0.14 Amps thereafter.

 

A long-term drain of 0.14 amp seems acceptable 

 

Subsequent VCDS scans and a DTC clear, following reconnection of the battery, leaves only the Powertain (Air con) error code (Lis

ted above). The relay and temperature flap code have disappeared !

 

So I think I'll keep the battery pro temp and keep a watching brief on the battery and the error codes.

 

Afterthought

 

Does anybody know whether the intermittment wipe can be set through VCDS so as to emit a beep tone if inadvertently left on when the ignition key is removed ?

 

 

Nick

Edited 14 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

Those devices are not reliable or accurate, suggest you keep the battery topped up using a quiescent trickle charger into the cigarette lighter socket, this will keep up with the small current drain and ensure the car is ready when you need it.

 

Even a solar panel charger propped in the window should suffice.

[Clunkclick]

The same make of battery analyser that I have purchased is being sold by Halfords, but, of  course, at 1.5 times the price that I paid.

 

I've got no reason to doubt the accuracy of this unit.

 

The voltage across the terminals it showed was the same as I was getting from 2 x different Fluke multimeters.

 

The state of charge figure (88%) it produces seems to be in accord with the SOC figures given on Wiki's car battery page, viz:-

 

12.6   volts = 100% charge

12.35 volts = 75% charge

 

And the battery health figure was broadly in accord with my observations regarding the loss of capacity.

 

From what I undertstand these machines operate in the same way as the "Voltage drop" dischargers of old used by garages and battery vendors with the exception that they don't discharge the battery for minutes at a time when measuring the drop in voltage (Which, as you said, might cause modern calcium batteries to be damaged because they have thinner plates), instead the on-board electronics causes them to take, as I understand it, a series of micro discharges over about 6-7 seconds and measures the voltage drop whilst each of these discharges is going on. 

 

In fact I applied the tester to the predecessor car battery (Another 62AH Varta) for the Fab which i have held onto for the last 2 years (To be used for camping holidays). This battery is well knackered and is topped up every 6 months using the C- Tek, and as expected this showed state of health as about 38% and CCA 259.

 

In actual fact I have been using a solar cell  (Output about 250ma  at full power) plugged into the cigarette lighter socket to keep the battery topped -up. Now, that copes well-enough in this role when all the charger has to contend with is the drain caused by the alarm (About 30 ma when in sleep mode ?) but if the courtesy light is left on  or activating after door closure (Draining about 500 ma) and/or the intermittment wipe is left on (Again about 500 ma), then its got no chance of meeting the shortfall, particularly at night. 

 

Also at night, (When the sun isn't shining !) I suspect that the solar cell may act as a miniature drain itself ?

 

It seems that the intermittment wipe drain is a defect in circuit design (That also occured in the Polo equivalent to this Fab) - there are at least a couple of paths I could spot in the current flow diagram where the wiper circuitry could discharge the battery, without activating the wiper or washer motors, with the ignition off because the ignition switch is bridged/bypassed by a couple of circuits with a full earth connection.

 

One other possibility arises. That external radio frequency emissions are intermittently  waking-up the alarm/convenience unit and causing the drain to increase to 400-500 milliamps. I understand that this occurred with the equivalent Polo and that radio CH thermostats were to blame - but I think I would be out-of-range of that effect as the car is parked in a private car park which is at least 25 feet from the nearest house and of course, its unlikely that has been happening in summer.

 

Nick

Edited 15 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[FollowingGhosts]

For the wiper stalk, you could wire up a microcontroller or some relays, such that if the ignition is not live but the wiper stalk is, then it beeps through a little speaker.

 

I've been tempted to do the same for my headlights because my door switch is broken and that's a real pain to strip and fix....

[Clunkclick]

For the wiper stalk, you could wire up a microcontroller or some relays, such that if the ignition is not live but the wiper stalk is, then it beeps through a little speaker.

 

I've been tempted to do the same for my headlights because my door switch is broken and that's a real pain to strip and fix....

Beyond my technical expertise, at the moment.

 

Isn't the stalk switch live anyway, or partially live, with the ignition off  because of the bridged circuits - I was thinking that all that was needed was for some parameters in the relevant VCDS module to be set/re-set to make it beep. Or is it a question of putting in a link to from one of the wiper tracks to a track that accesses the beeper. As said, the direction indicator stalk, when activated with the ignition-off and parked, beep when they activate the relevant side-light.

 

I take it that the beeper is part of the convenience module ?

 

Nick

Edited 15 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[FollowingGhosts]

Thinking about it, you wouldn't even need the microcontroller or more than one relay. I was overcomplicating the situation.

 

All you need is a relay that is powered by the ignition connected to the wiper stalk intermmitent wire, which breaks the circuit when the ignition is off. Therefore it'd make zero difference whether the wipers were left on or off.

[rum4mo]

Those devices are not reliable or accurate, suggest you keep the battery topped up using a quiescent trickle charger into the cigarette lighter socket, this will keep up with the small current drain and ensure the car is ready when you need it.

 

Even a solar panel charger propped in the window should suffice.

I might be living dangerously, but I've left an Ibiza at the local airport with maybe still a battery drains issue and using a solar charger that plugs into the OBD2 port - and a booster pack in the boot!

Current weather at lake Como - heavy rain!

[Clunkclick]

I might be living dangerously, but I've left an Ibiza at the local airport with maybe still a battery drains issue and using a solar charger that plugs into the OBD2 port - and a booster pack in the boot!

Current weather at lake Como - heavy rain!

Nice all round !

 

Size of the drain  ? Size of the solar cell ? - I presume a big'un. NICAD/LIPO booster pack ?

 

Nick

Edited 16 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

Nice all round !

 

Size of the drain  ? Size of the solar cell ? - I presume a big'un. NICAD/LIPO booster pack ?

 

Nick

 

Well that was not my best plan, though, engine turned over sluggishly and I released the key maybe too soon, second attempt was less successful and ended up putting the instrument panel lights outs, so I waited 5 minutes and tried again - even worse!  Not the best situation to find/put yourself in after a 06:45 start in Italy, so, out came the booster pack, this was only part charged (I was being optimistic and lazy!) - the battery in it is just the standard "golf buggy" one (for a hill billy?). Anyway, the engine started quickly so we did get out of the airport car park in time! After a 12 miles drive home then a couple of 15 mile journeys to have lunch and buy some essentials, I've fitted my battery monitor lead on to the car and this time left the solar charger off.  The solar charger that I've used is an AA branded one with 137milli amp output under favourable conditions. So now it is back to checking the battery voltage over a week or so of no use, at the same time I'll fit the solar charger to the booster pack and see what the drain is when the solar cells are covered! Oh bother, battery drain problems are not fun, SEAT garage sorted this out a few months ago, and at that time that car could be left unused for a month and still start!!

 

Current battery drain needs checking again, before and after its previous "fix" for this sort of problem, the drain I measured was in the order of 35milli amps which is an acceptable level I think, though what the drain is when this sort of thing is happening, who knows!

Edited 17 September, 2016 by rum4mo

[Updown789]

Why would the solar panel drain the battery at night? Surely they have diodes to prevent this type of thing, as they're designed to be a set and forget type of affair

[rum4mo]

Why would the solar panel drain the battery at night? Surely they have diodes to prevent this type of thing, as they're designed to be a set and forget type of affair

 

I'd expect that as with any semiconductor device, there will be a current drain - but I'd think that it would be very insignificant, I'd still like to try and measure it though to make sure that it is heading for zero milli amps. It would be a pain in the neck to go chasing faults when you end up finding that your solar charger is duff and causing a drain during the hours of darkness -for me, that is all.

 

Edit:- just my luck as we seem to be heading back to "plunging" over night temperatures.

 

Another Edit:- I think that I misquoted my initial battery drain, I logged it was being 4.7milli amps and not 35milli amps, I seem to remember reading somewhere that "less than 5.5milli amps" is the desired quiesent current drain.

 

Yet another Edit:- I think that I was dreaming when I read that 5.5milli amps is the desired max drain level, I'll change that back to 50milli amps, I can't find my results from initially checking the Ibiza drain, but I'd think that 4.7milli amps must be wrong! (though car was unlocked when I measured it - if that makes any different)

Edited 18 September, 2016 by rum4mo

[rum4mo]

Well I did check the solar charger under low/no sunlight conditions and yes, with my measuring instruments no current drain was detected, but what I now know is how quickly the charging current drops off when the cloud free sunlight is not hitting the solar panel directly, as for grey skies, normal Scottish conditions, a max of 20mill amps was all I was getting instead of the 150milli amp with direct sunlight!

 

I'd hate to think that my new battery has suddenly become tired - anything is possible so I should not assume that it is a draining issue, I'll check drain after I've logged the connected battery voltage over a few more days.

[Clunkclick]

I would echo your findings reference the fall-off in current output from solar cells when out of direct sun-light. Luckily, where my car is parked-up, its facing SW to NE, so the sun plays on it most of the time.

 

At the moment, I've got one solar panel  (Rated at 250ma max) fixed on the RHS  rear seating head rest and that, that, on its own is, as events have proved, is insufficient to keep the battery near full-charge, when the alarm/ convenience unit is drawing 150-200 ma in sleep mode. 

 

I had contemplated fitting another solar panel on the LHS head rest for winter, but as you've found, that might only add another 20ma.

 

And then when you add-in a partially defective battery, the solar output is next to useless.

 

The vulnerable time will be the winter as regards loss of CCA capacity, both in terms of the temperature and  reduced frequency of use of the car, so, I think, what I will do is put the spare camping battery in the passenger footwell and connect it permanently to the cigarette lighter socket. I've rigged-up the camping battery with a  plastic battery case, the detachable top of which includes  input and an output cigarette lighter sockets connected to the battery via a voltage regulator, so that I can connect a charg ing device.i.e. . a booster battery or solar cell to the input side nd have the spare battery being charged whilst simultaneously drawing on it to top-up the main car battery via the cars cigarette lighter socket. In the worst circumstances, even if both batteries have a battery health of 80% and a state of charge of 80% there still should be at least 770 CCA available - more than enough to turn over the engine at 0 centigrade.

 

Really the only solution is to use a bigger solar cell, and it would have to be about a metre square to produce 1 amp in direct sunlight and about 150 ma in overcast conditions - I can confirm those outputs as I have one of those suitcase solar cells which I use for camping. But that would need to be strapped to the car roof if used to charge the car battery !

 

Let's hope the manufacturers have a brainwave and start building these into car rooves.

 

 

Nick

Edited 21 September, 2016 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

Don't try starting the car with the camping battery, leisure batteries are not capable of providing the cold cranking current and will be damaged if you try, also the wiring to the socket will not cope with the current.

[rum4mo]

Yes, I was thinking the same wrt the cigarette lighter internal wiring - ouch, though I'm sure there will be a fuse to stop things going really bad.

 

It is not very good when you are in this situation, in my case I've sniffed/poked around, given in and let deale sort it out, well that worked at the time, about two months later I've found I have a similar kind of problem, though very hard to prove that it is not something else now - I had a bad feeling about the cause of the first drain issue, but as soon as I got the car back home I left it for 28 days and it did start okay, so it looked like it had been sorted out.

 

Now I could be going against all sensible advice and buying a battery tester - and not from the cheapest source as I still have too many LoveToShop vouchers running out of time/life!

 

If this car's proper owner, my older daughter, was back home from working in KL, I'd suggest that she got herself another new car as this one "was done" - unfortunately it was never her idea for me to look after this car while she was away, I was just trying to be a good father!! Handy to have another car to tax and insure etc, saves using my "good" car which sleeps in the garage while depreciating quietly!!

[Clunkclick]

Don't try starting the car with the camping battery, leisure batteries are not capable of providing the cold cranking current and will be damaged if you try, also the wiring to the socket will not cope with the current.

The "Camping" battery is not a leisure battery, its the old 60Ah (600CCA) Varta Car battery refered to above i..e. the predecessor  to the current car battery, which has  3 good cells remaining i.e. 38% capacity and which was retained, 2.5 years ago,because it still had four good cells (Now reduced to three)  in it . According to the current flow diagram in the Haynes manual, the cigarette lighter socket is fused by a 15A fuse (F42).

 

Normally, the engine, when cranked, catches within 3-4 seconds, even in cold weather. Even if the starter drew the full 15 A through the wiring (Which must be designed to handle that for the purposes of powering the cigarette lighter) would that current damage the wiring/blow the fuse in 3-4 seconds ? And, if the fuse blows in less time the circuitry is protected, surely ?

 

If not,  the simple solution is just to break the connection between the battery in the footwell and the cabin cigarette lighter socket when starting the engine.

 

Seems a waste to  bin or relegate both batteries to "Camping" duties only when  one's got 80%  capacity left while the other has 40%.

 

Out of interest, have there ever been proposals put forward to modularise batteries i.e. make each battery from 3 x 2 cell modules. Given that most car batteries become unusuable when the two cells nearest the positive terminal go U/S, leaving the remaining 4 cells in good condition, this would be a boon to the consumer.

 

Nick

Edited 21 September, 2016 by Clunkclick