Battery problem

[Clunkclick]

I can't see how garages can test the "Sleep mode" drain using this method, unless VAG have some sort of  device which they fit during system  electrical testing which actively supress "Spikes" or unless the EMU has a particularly high electrical sensitivity threshold, then each time a technician inserts or removes a  multimeter probe which " Makes" a circuit then the EMU will be "Woken -up" 

 

I must have 25 fuses in my car's fusebox. So, to test it effectively, a technician would have to be incarcerated in the vehicle for at least 52 hours continuously, without food, sleep and "Comfort" breaks. The methodology would be presumably this - open car door, remove fuse cover, insert probes into fuse No. 1 (System wakes up), wait 2 hours, (System goes to sleep), take a reading, remove probes and insert into fuse No 2 (System wakes up), wait two hours, take a reading . . . etc etc for the next 23 fuses.

 

 

Talking of "Spikes",  I should think that the electrical system design office at Wolfsburg must be using the following as  a training film

 

 

 

 

- perhaps they bind a high value capacitor to one of the multimeter probes before sticking it in a hole ? (Facetious ?)

 

Let's face it the only way of doing this properly is to have every, and I mean every, active electrical component having a digital address and a sensing wire attached to the component that could "Sense" electrical activity of any sort without intruding on the normal operation of the circuit. Data so captured would be streamed data back, via a local controller, to the EMU in real time.

 

 

Nick

 

 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Voltmeters are very high impedance devices, so would have no effect on the circuit probed.

[Clunkclick]

I'd lay money on the fact that removal of a fuse, when a circuit is live, would be sensed for the purposes of "State". . . . . 

 

Thinks . . . . Can you command the EMU to go into sleep mode using VCDS/OBD ?

 

 

Nick

Edited 12 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Oh !

 

http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/tour/transport-mode.html

 

Anybody experience of using this function ?

 

 

N

[rum4mo]

So, you have 25 fuses in your fuse box, well, all this talk about getting stuck in and sorting things out, in my case a 2009 Ibiza, has so far lead me to make a list of all fuses fitted to that actual car and the functions/circuits each one covers - not easy with VAG as the translation into English from Spanish makes for some strange fuse functions/circuits, so having done that but not being willing to move forward until Ibiza gets subjected to MOT test tomorrow, I turned to my wife's August 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI 110 SEL, and all I discovered was that the owner's manual fails to include 31 fuses that are fitted to that car - "see Volkswagen dealer for a complete list for your car"  - now that is what I'd call "very handy" - not, I'd better do that soon - just in case I need that info!

 

Transport mode, I've never considered tying that, though maybe in some cases it could be worth while if it can force a "real sleep" state on to the car - and so if giving a different result from the default "it should have got to sleep", might in my Ibiza's case point to a software issue as opposed to a BCM issue or intermittent current drain due to wiring issues?

[Clunkclick]

I would be cautious before even thinking about applying  "Transport mode".

 

Frankly, i'm surprised that it doesn't require a dealer code or some special VAG code entered before it can be accessed and I would fully expect that there would be several "Undocumented" effects that might not be discovered/ or immediately apparent, even after doing one's research on Erwin an Elsa.

 

I presume it acts rather like a software interrupt mask of the sort that can be applied to the microprocessor's of desktop computers. These masks effectively turn-off the ability of peripheral components to get the attention of the microprocessor ensuring that they cannot exercise their suite of functions. Generally, these masks can be written into application programs and therefore are easy to reverse. However, if this is the same  process as  is going on inside the EMU, then a degree of cautioni s recomended because the changes in parameters necesarry to invoke "Sleep mode" are being lodged in the EMU's modules which must reside in a form of non-volatile ram or flash memory and, this as you appreciate, persists even after the system switches itself off. So, I suspect that  changing module values in an EMU is a bit like changing parameter values in a BIOS ROM in a desktop. Caution advised.

 

If the weathers good toward the end of the week, I might venture out and test to see how much the drain currently is on the battery. Fingers crossed, I won't have to go to stage 2 and start testing individual circuits at the fusebox.

 

 

Nick

Edited 12 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Number of fuses @ 25 was my recall at fault.

 

In fact, from the phone picture I took, its 39 in total, 23 small and 16 large.

 

 

Nick

Edited 12 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

Or in present day VW fuses speak, small = MINI, large = ATO and square ones = JCASE!

 

I've a hunch that you might be in luck as I seem to have read that not all cars had the ability to be set in Transport Mode, hopefully the 2009 Ibiza is also one that can't be set in Transport Mode as that would save me getting into a mess, or maybe not!

[Clunkclick]

Intercourse VAG electrical systems !

 

On inspection this afternoon, new Bosch battery voltage was 12.2 volts (i.e. about 66.67% charged).  You may recall that when installed 48 hours ago it was 12.99 volts (i.e. fully charged)  So thats lost 0.79 volts over 2 days, equivalent to 43.3% of its charge which on a 63 amp hour battery equates to 27 amp hours. That means there must either be an internal short in the new battery or an external drain of half an amp per hour.

 

When I left the car after its 40 mile round trip on monday, the indicated drain  had settled to 0.26 amps. So the drain, from whatever source, has, on average, doubled whilst the vehicle has been at rest, unused.

 

I took it out today and managed a 60 mile round trip in two legs. After which the voltage was reading 12.99 Volts again.

At idle, the thing was charging at 13.5 volts. Seems Ok, although its at the lower end of the charging range (13.3 -14.4 volts).

 

Tomorrow, every effing fuse will be coming out and I'll ramming those multimeter probes into the fuseholders as if they were the combined rectal sphincters of Mr Wintercorn and Mr Muller. 

 

I think I'm having a suitably imaged tee shirt made-up  bearing the the christain names of said gentlemen and an appropriate instruction to them.

 

Should that fail to produce a solution, then Transport mode will, if viable on my car, will be applied with a vengeance equivalent to a Mig being splashed by a Typhoon.

 

 

Nick

Edited 12 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Or in present day VW fuses speak, small = MINI, large = ATO and square ones = JCASE!

 

I've a hunch that you might be in luck as I seem to have read that not all cars had the ability to be set in Transport Mode, hopefully the 2009 Ibiza is also one that can't be set in Transport Mode as that would save me getting into a mess, or maybe not!

I read some reports saying that it only can be applied in the first 125 Kms, other reports saying it can only be applied to vehicles up to odometer readings of 150,000 K and yet further reports saying that as from 2007 this latter limitation didn't apply - inference being it may apply to some models prior to 2007

 

My understanding is that TM switches off things like the alarm, immobiliser, radio, sat nav, double din, instrument binnacle, air con,  door locks, courtesy lights, self-leveliing suspension (On the pricyer models) so that the battery power isn't wasted during transit.

 

It saves the battery, but switching off services ain't going to help me find the drain.

 

Apparently, this is not to be confused with factory mode, which from an electrical standpoint is even more stringent and miserly in terms of the services it switches off. But one owner of a VAG personal import from France reported he managed, allegedly accidentally, to get his Passat into "Factory mode" using VCDS and was only able to reverse it by going to  dealer, who then had to have some on-line interaction  fun with VOA (?? - presume he meant VOSA) in order to right the issue. Sounds a bit sus.

 

I'm just wondering whether "Battery drain" is the latest wheeze that Milton Keynes has dreamed-up to "Income generate" for the dealers now that the great unwashed have forgotten about cam-belts ?

 

Nick

Edited 12 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

Intercourse VAG electrical systems !

 

On inspection this afternoon, new Bosch battery voltage was 12.2 volts (i.e. about 66.67% charged).  You may recall that when installed 48 hours ago it was 12.99 volts (i.e. fully charged)  So thats lost 0.79 volts over 2 days, equivalent to 43.3% of its charge which on a 63 amp hour battery equates to 27 amp hours. That means there must either be an internal short in the new battery or an external drain of half an amp per hour.

 

When I left the car after its 40 mile round trip on monday, the indicated drain  had settled to 0.26 amps. So the drain, from whatever source, has, on average, doubled whilst the vehicle has been at rest, unused.

 

I took it out today and managed a 60 mile round trip in two legs. After which the voltage was reading 12.99 Volts again.

At idle, the thing was charging at 13.5 volts. Seems Ok, although its at the lower end of the charging range (13.3 -14.4 volts).

 

Tomorrow, every effing fuse will be coming out and I'll ramming those multimeter probes into the fuseholders as if they were the combined rectal sphincters of Mr Wintercorn and Mr Muller. 

 

I think I'm having a suitably imaged tee shirt made-up  bearing the the christain names of said gentlemen and an appropriate instruction to them.

 

Should that fail to produce a solution, then Transport mode will, if viable on my car, will be applied with a vengeance equivalent to a Mig being splashed by a Typhoon.

 

 

Nick

 

13.5V is a maintenance charge, it means the battery is full. Voltage will drop in lower temperatures as the chemistry slows down, it doesn't mean the battery is flat.

[Clunkclick]

13.5V is a maintenance charge, it means the battery is full. Voltage will drop in lower temperatures as the chemistry slows down, it doesn't mean the battery is flat.

What does a voltage of 12.2 volts from a battery at rest indicate then, "Happy days are here again" ?

 

Oooohhh, that tee-shirt is going to be wonderful.

 

A  multimeter dive-bombing . . neigh, a winged multimeter with a buxom jockey, dive-bombing a distant pair of bronzed uplifted capacious German buttocks, duly marked with a target roundel and bearing banner inscription below, on a bed of green verdant, . . in Latin, of course . . "Ad astra multimeterus per cloaca" - (Thanks UKIP) and an over arching inscription of "M & M enterprises" (Thanks Mr Heller).

 

Nick

Edited 12 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

What does a voltage of 12.2 volts from a battery at rest indicate then, "Happy days are here again" ?

 

Oooohhh, that tee-shirt is going to be wonderful.

 

A  multimeter dive-bombing . . neigh, a winged multimeter with a buxom jockey, dive-bombing a distant pair of bronzed uplifted capacious German buttocks, duly marked with a target roundel and bearing banner inscription below, on a bed of green verdant, . . in Latin, of course . . "Ad astra multimeterus per cloaca" - (Thanks UKIP) and an over arching inscription of "M & M enterprises" (Thanks Mr Heller).

 

Nick

 

You're a catastrophist.

 

You describe a weak drain of ~250ma then you tell us that a brand new quality battery is near death after a couple of days. It doesn't add up Nick, and if it doesn't add up then something in your methodology is faulty.

[Clunkclick]

Facts. Nothing catastrophic about it.

 

Battery installed Monday, outside temperature 18-19 C, battery voltage , at rest,12.99 v.

By Wednesday, (Vehicle used once on Monday only) battery voltage  at rest 12.2 v, outside temperature about 16 C - lowest overnight temperature during intervening period 9 C.

According to the tables, that's a 44% reduction in charge and, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that this is  caused by a normal variation in chemical activity inside the battery as a result of a 9 C temperature drop in the range 10 - 20 C.

 

So, I take it that there were widespread problems across the UK yesterday for all cars ?

 

Your favoured info source, Battery University, tells us that the opitmum environmental temperature for a battery is 20 C and that by minus 20 C  a battery cannot function at all. Are you saying that the line connecting + 20 C to - 20 C on the battery function graph is concave ?

 

No. Of course it isn't. Most of the temperature induced loss of battery function occurs below an environmental  temperature of zero C , otherwise we wouldn't see any cars on the road in Winter when it snows !

Occasionally, **** does happen, no matter how hard you try to do the Ostrich imitation.

 

 

N.

[rum4mo]

Clunkclick, I think that your car is "seeing" intermittent large battery drains, which I think that you accept, the quoted 1/4Amp is just an annoying excessive continuous sleep drain level.

 

So how to nail that down, well for a DIYer with limited need to use that car, I plan to remove quite a lot of fuses - exactly which ones I have not worked out yet, but as I am clueless as to the root cause of these intermittent large drain currents, I'd think starting from the LH end of the top row might be as good as any logically thought out plan - and leave them out for 3 or 4 days.

 

Of course I find myself still thinking that in my case of the 2009 Ibiza 1.4 SC that is a car known to have been delivered over that period in time with maybe "not so good" control software in its BCM - but I need my SEAT main dealer to brush up on his knowledge of that fact, which so far, he has not been willing to do! 

 

Though I can't fully explain why I managed to leave that car for 28 days after driving it back home from being repaired (excessive battery drain - which dealer traced to steering sensor under steering wheel, which was replaced etc) locked up on driveway, and while the battery had lost a lot of its charge, I managed to start the engine - only for two months later to be back in this "leave it for 7 days and the battery WILL be too discharged to start the car" - even after using an external charger to top (if it really needed it?) the battery up to fully charged at the start of this out of use test period!

[sepulchrave]

I've just been out and started my 1.4 16V which has been sat motionless outside for a good 3 months and it was fine, now I dare say that the battery will need a charge and I'm going to take it off today and trickle it until full, but 3 months with alarm enabled should be no problem.

I vaguely seem to remember something about someones heated wing mirrors draining the battery in the dim and distant past, maybe worth looking at if you've left the switch in that position.

[Clunkclick]

Temporary relief in-view - the Richbrook battery break device arrived today. 

 

http://www.halfords.com/motoring/bulbs-blades-batteries/car-battery-chargers/richbrook-dis-carnect-battery-immobiliser?cm_mmc=Google+PLA-_-Bulbs,+Blades+and+Batteries-_-Car+Battery+Chargers-_-249628&_$ja=tsid:60494%7Ccgn:GoogleShopping%7Ckw:249628&istCompanyId=b8708c57-7a02-4cf6-b2c0-dc36b54a327e&istItemId=qipapxi&istBid=tztt&_$ja=tsid:35522|cid:344535484|agid:24344213644|tid:aud-271742666404:pla-209595826324|crid:83789257324|nw:g|rnd:9029911362531222844|dvc:c|adp:1o2&gclid=COTz8dvP188CFU6eGwod1jgFjg

 

 

When installed, just lift the bonnet and the battery lid, unscrew the winged threaded rod - no juice flows (As they might say in the Unilever adverts) ! 

 

Perfect for extended periods of disuse.

 

And if EMU wants to throw a few error codes when I re-connect the battery, let it !

 

 

Nick

Edited 13 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

I've just been out and started my 1.4 16V which has been sat motionless outside for a good 3 months and it was fine, now I dare say that the battery will need a charge and I'm going to take it off today and trickle it until full, but 3 months with alarm enabled should be no problem.

I vaguely seem to remember something about someones heated wing mirrors draining the battery in the dim and distant past, maybe worth looking at if you've left the switch in that position.

 

That is a good enough benchmark for what/how things should be!  The Ibiza sadly does not have such fancy things as heated mirrors. I trashed the set on my 2000 Passat once by not fully understanding when they were running, ie all the time the switch was on and engine running, I had just moved from  VX Cav which needed the rear window on to power them up!

[rum4mo]

Clunkclick - Oh, so that will be you off then?

 

What about the challenge of beating this problem, maybe life has more to offer?

[Clunkclick]

Clunkclick - Oh, so that will be you off then?

 

What about the challenge of beating this problem, maybe life has more to offer?

Don't hold your breath - another "Succesful" resolution to adverse marketing imagery in prospect.

 

See, thing is,  I've got a wonderful hospital "Day case" session coming up in a fortnight, followed by at least two  months reduced physical function,  and, therefore, you will appreciate, that I don't want to leave a new battery in the car to be ruined by an ongoing drain, if I haven't identified the source by then.

 

N

Edited 13 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

That is a good enough benchmark for what/how things should be!  The Ibiza sadly does not have such fancy things as heated mirrors. I trashed the set on my 2000 Passat once by not fully understanding when they were running, ie all the time the switch was on and engine running, I had just moved from  VX Cav which needed the rear window on to power them up!

Exactomundo !

 

I dream about heated seats ?

 

N

Edited 13 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

It's been sitting there doing nothing for a further twod ays, so I went out and took a reading with the Foxwell battery analyser.

 

Voltage; 12.42 volts

CCA       560 EN

SOC:        78%

SOH         77%

 

So, voltage is down from  when its was left after the 60 mile drive from 12.99 to 12.42. SOC is down from 100% to 78% and SOH is the same at 77%.

 

Ampage drain at the negative terminal according to the Fluke MM was varying this afternoon from anything between  0.01 to 0.41 amps when measured at the battery negative terminal, ignition off, doors and windows closed.

 

Its not right, there's  a massive drain somewhere.

 

The fresh /recirculated air flap motor has definitely failed.

 

I pulled the 5 A fuse for this and measured the change in the drain at the battery. This initially dropped from 0.40 amps to 0.25 amp and then went back up to 0.40 with the fuse still out. What the . . . ?

 

I pulled, in turn, all 16 of the larger types of fuse from the fuse box  (ECU, Fuel pump, windows, locking, headlights) and inserted an adapter (With the pulled fuse installed in the adapter) which connected with leads on the multimeter. All showed zero draw.

 

I couldn't do the smaller fuses as I hadn't got the right size of adapter, but I later went into the 09 -Central Electronics controller, advanced measuring values window in VCDS and checked the operation of ALL electrical components against the values displayed in VCDS and all seemed 100% kosher.

 

The only odd entries in that module were for :-

 

Terminal 50, Location 001-02 which showed "OFF".

Load management Intervention, Location 002-02, which shows "Inactive"

Wiper potentiometer, Location 003-4, which showed "Not recognised"

Horn, Location 004-03, which showed "Not operating" although it sounded when pressed.

Lock service position, Location 007-03, which showed off - I don't know what component this relates to.

 

There as another 4 entries in this controller which all showed "Not operating":-

 

CCS main switch, Locations 009-1 & 009-2 and

CCS Switch set (-), Location 009-3 and CCS Switch Res (+) 0, Location 009-4. 

 

Is this something to do with the starter ?

 

I also checked out which controllers were available on my car as when I start-up VCDS I'm getting the message that CAN isn't available ( I have got the Official Ross-Tech Hex + Can USB cable).

 

I can read under the "Common Controllers" tab 01 - Engine, 03 - ABS Brakes, 09 - Central Electronics, 17 - Instruments, 19 - CAN gateway (??), 25 - Immobiliser, and 46 - Central convenience.

 

But can't read  08 -HVAC, 16 - steering wheel, 35 - central locks. Would these be included in an 2003 reg (6/2002 built) 1.4 16v 100HP Fabia ?

 

Is it possible that the failed flap motor is causing the drain on its own ?

 

 

Postscript

 

Also when looking at the values listed under the 09- Central electrical controller heading the Hazard warning lights worked but the entry for "Emergency flasher", location 002-4, showed "Off" even when the hazards were on. 

 

 

Nick

Edited 14 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[sepulchrave]

You don't have modules 16 and 35 but if you have AC then HVAC should be readable.

 

The flap motor should be switched off with the rest of the systems, I believe it's possible to manually lock the car but disable the alarm system so you can eliminate that drain.

[Clunkclick]

Cheers

 

It is evident from the VCDS scans that I did in February this year when comparing them with the current scans that there has been a change operation for that  flap motor from intermittment failure to complete failure. The current scan fault codes are indicating a loss of communications with the A/C, so possibly, the failed flap motor is breaking the comms link.

 

I understand that the genuine part, for a home repair, is £70+. and that the full-on dealer repair  (For an equivalent Polo) was £390 labour and parts - because the VAG repair method involves removal of the full dash and steering wheel. At that price VAG can poke it !

 

There's a video on YT showing how one owner has substituted a long cable tie threaded through a blanked-off switch port on the dash to operate the fresh/recirculated air flap manually. Looks good on the video. All that's needed is to take the glove box off (Six torx screws) and do  bit of crawling underneath the dash.

 

But I suspect that if you don't replace the motor then the comms link with the HVAC module may remain broken. So that will mean saying ta ta to the aircon. Frankly, the aircon, from two years into ownership onwards has been a total PITA, so I won't be sorry if I have to say bye-bye to that.

 

Reading the accounts on the web of owners of Skodas, VWs and Seats that have had problem with these motor flaps over the last 10 years, it beggars belief that VAG is still a viable economic entity - if they paid up on all of their warranty and so acalled "Good will" claims they would go bankrupt. This sort of crap just makes car ownership a complete and utter burden.

 

I just hope removing the motor will cure the battery drain, which i reckon is at least 0.20 amp per hour and that's it not some problem with the EMU which I understand is £600 for a replacement.

 

Any wonder that customers are flocking to Dacia for simple straight foward motoring.

 

 

Postscript

 

I've just realised that the CCS switch I referred to above is the cruise control - luckily it isn't fitted in this car.

 

 

 

 

Nick

Edited 14 October, 2016 by Clunkclick

[rum4mo]

For what it is worth, my 2000MY Passat had a faulty recirc flap motor for many years, never bothered to sort that - too much effort, but that car did tend to have very low usage during working periods (only used for long journeys/holidays), so even when used when in a car share situation, one week in four, that car never ever exibited any signs of having a partially discharged battery, when that battery finally caused problems, it was due to old age I'd think.

 

My guess is that that AC issue is a red herring, but I do realise that when you get into a tight space you need to systematically remove all suspects! (in your place I'd probably do the same thing)

 

Edit:- currently I'm blaming the BCM control software, but yet to confront the SEAT dealer again about that - so that leaves me putting off starting to pull some fuses, due to black/grey sky and lots of continuous, it seems, light rain!

 

At least the Ibiza managed to pass its MOT test cleanly!

Edited 15 October, 2016 by rum4mo