Catastrophe- Run out of oil

[markb]

Short story is that No1 daughter was driving the car when something punched a hole in the sump. I've temporarily fixed the hole and refilled with oil. Engine is not seized, but despite fuel and a spark the engine turns over but will not start. My amateur guess is that the rings may have welded to the piston and the resulting reduced compression is the culprit.

Anyone got any suggestions about repairing it? Is it even worth it? It's done about 30k miles and is 4 yrs old.

[Phil-E]

You sure that something hasn't punched its way out of the sump?

[markb]

Yes, pretty sure. The sump had a dent on the outside and a small split in the aluminium through which the oil exited. When the engine turns over there are no nasty noises.

[StevesTruck]

Posh answer - Compression test it

 

Rough arsed answer - for a quick sign if it is terminal, take a plug out and put a long rod in, see if it goes up and down when you turn the engine by hand, then repeat for the other cylinders (make sure the rod is long enough not to lose it in the cylinder). Then do a leakdown check by filling the cylinders with oil and seeing if it's still there in the morning - don't try to start it with the bores still full of oil though. Neither of these will definitively tell you if there is compression or not, but if it fails either check, you know you've got problems. 

 

Does seem a bit strange that it's not even having a go at starting on any cylinders though

[GeneralPurpose]

mark, I wouldn't mess with the car. I'd take it (trailer it by RAC or whoever) to a dealer for a proper evaluation. Don't fill the cylinders with oil either. Not recommended to do a leak down at this point, and it's not needed. Compression test at the dealer will tell all you need to know and they need to do some other tests. It won't start most likely due to the ecu shutting down the engine due to detecting the engine running too hot without oil. It needs resetting. But don't touch it. Is the car under warranty? It won't be a warranty job if something has forced it's way into the engine, but if something forced it's way out, different story. So are you sure about that? Do keep posting on this if you will. 

[Updown789]

Was the force that hard that it could have knocked an inertia switch? This would kill the fuel, if there is one that is

[GeneralPurpose]

That would only happen if the car detects you have collided with something and a foreign object penetrating the sump would not trigger that system.

[markb]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

I have a compression tester, but typically it won't fit down the 3 mile tube to reach the cylinder head! Ruddy modern engines.

Estate Man-

That's interesting. I had a feeling there might be a "catastrophe protection" mode that have activated when the oil pressure dropped to critical levels. I disconnected the battery in the hope that might reset the ECU, but it may be there is a software switch that needs to be reset.

I don't usually drive it so am unsure about the normal state of the dash lights, but I note that the "EPC" light is illuminated when the ignition is turned on and does not go out even when the engine is cranked. So that  could well reinforce your suggestion that it's now in a "don't start me" mode.

I'm not generally keen on taking cars to dealers and do most repairs myself, partly because I'm tight and partly because I quite like doing it. Anybody know if this is a DIY fix?

 

Many thanks again for all the input

[markb]

Forgot to mention that it's no longer under warranty, so daddy's wallet will be taking the pain. When I've worked out how to post an image, I'll attach a shot of the sump.

[Breezy_Pete]

Look for members near you with VCDS and read stored codes.

Whereabouts are you?

 

I'd be tempted to buy a compression tester with a longer 'hose', if you want to carry on DIY. Pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things.

[markb]

https://app.box.com/s/hba06l21hhx00drc29ie39xj1q9jpgm9

https://app.box.com/s/sxot69ea81q5txt56eh0rgwv1ao4hmju

https://app.box.com/s/tclox6gb1j0sc6pwjer6lykh7vmecqig

Edited 18 January, 2017 by markb

[markb]

I'm near Sevenoaks in Kent.

 

Having poked about in some other forums, it may be that I did not disconnect the battery for long enough (31mins is I think the magic number) so I'll try that next and see what happens.

[VRS Mike]

there won't be any safety cut out due to oil pressure, it will run till it dies! I would have thought replacement engines if required could be picked up quite cheeply

[Warrior193]

there won't be any safety cut out due to oil pressure, it will run till it dies! I would have thought replacement engines if required could be picked up quite cheeply

Hi Mark, does your daughter know how long the engine was run after the oil light came on? 

[markb]

I tried disconnecting the battery for an hour to see if the ECU would reset, but no luck. The EPC dash light is still illuminated whjen the ignition is on.

 

@warrior193

She was actually at the top of a hill and coasted in neutral to the bottom, whereupon the engine had stopped. Maybe 30secs?

Edited 18 January, 2017 by markb

[Warrior193]

I tried disconnecting the battery for an hour to see if the ECU would reset, but no luck. The EPC dash light is still illuminated whjen the ignition is on.

 

@warrior193

She was actually at the top of a hill and coasted in neutral to the bottom, whereupon the engine had stopped. Maybe 30secs?

So possibly not terminal on the main bearings, you might be lucky. Given the circumstances, I rather doubt that too much damage will have been done - did the engine shut down by itself when the oil light came on, or did she turn it off? 

[markb]

@warrior193

I can't be sure because a) she was in a bit of a state, and b) she's now in Thailand.....

I have a sneaking feeling that there is an ECU related reason that it won't start. The presence of the EPC dash light nags at me.

[ronime]

With no faults logged the EPC light will probably not extinguish until the engine has started and is idling. Any fault codes will be in non-volatile memory and will need a diagnostics tool to reset.

If I was in your shoes I would take a punt on a new sump and gasket and a gallon of 5W30 and then put a shout out on the VW, SEAT and Skoda forums for a local with a copy of VCDS to do the diagnostics for some beer tokens.

Edited 18 January, 2017 by ronime

[markb]

@ronime

I've done the cheapskate's version of a new sump by plugging the hole with good old Plastic Padding, so it's refilled with oil (no leaks as yet) and ready for a willing diagnoser to raise their hand!

Edited 18 January, 2017 by markb

[rum4mo]

Maybe you need to check the engine timing incase the tensioner has dropped back with lack of oil pressure and has allowed the chain to jump a tooth or two?

[bigjohn]

Maybe you need to check the engine timing incase the tensioner has dropped back with lack of oil pressure and has allowed the chain to jump a tooth or two?

 

I think the Citigo uses the 3 cylinder version of the EA211 which uses a belt to drive the camshaft

Edited 18 January, 2017 by bigjohn

[bigjohn]

Short story is that No1 daughter was driving the car when something punched a hole in the sump. I've temporarily fixed the hole and refilled with oil. Engine is not seized, but despite fuel and a spark the engine turns over but will not start. My amateur guess is that the rings may have welded to the piston and the resulting reduced compression is the culprit.

Anyone got any suggestions about repairing it? Is it even worth it? It's done about 30k miles and is 4 yrs old.

 

Unlikely to be piston rings as bores have a lot of splash lubrication from the crank turning. On a non turbo car usually the first things to be damaged by oil starvation are the crank shaft bearings - especially the big end bearings. If not seized engine would still run but make a lot of of noise as the oil gets hot and thinner

 

If you get it going the sump will require changing - that temporary repair will fail in time with heat expansion/contraction

 

Any codes logged?

Edited 18 January, 2017 by bigjohn

[markb]

@bigjohn

I haven't got a VCDS lead anymore so haven't yet been able to check any fault codes. I could well be barking up the wrong tree, but the presence of the ECT light makes me think that the ECU is preventing it from starting. The bodge to the sump was just temporary to see if it had seized. I agree, it will need replacing if the car is worth salvaging

[bigjohn]

@bigjohn

I haven't got a VCDS lead anymore so haven't yet been able to check any fault codes. I could well be barking up the wrong tree, but the presence of the ECT light makes me think that the ECU is preventing it from starting. The bodge to the sump was just temporary to see if it had seized. I agree, it will need replacing if the car is worth salvaging

 

Hi - Do you mean EPC light doesn't go out(as you mentioned further up the thread) - If so this is normal , this remains illuminated until the engine starts 

[markb]

Hi - Do you mean EPC light doesn't go out(as you mentioned further up the thread) - If so this is normal , this remains illuminated until the engine starts 

 

Aah. So I am indeed probably up the wrong tree. I think a friendly VCDS owner is my best shot at diagnosing.

Cheers