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1.2 TSI TIMING CHAIN recall!


nick hall

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Guernboy,  Just to be clear,

could you have had your Yeti on Variable Servicing of 18,000 miles or 2 years but opted for fixed servicing of 9,400 mile or 372 days and the engine was serviced with 5w 30 FS Long Life Oil but missed this service by 2,000 miles,  or did you miss a Variable Service by 2,000 miles?

 

??

Which Skoda UK Communications manager would know nothing about the TPI's, Upgrade Parts and all the Warranty Work they have paid for, it must be 'Tommy' yet again!

Tell whoever it is to ask the CEO, he worked for Skoda, then VW on Warranties and is now back at Skoda UK, so knows what it has cost the VW Group so far.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/426162-timing-chain-rattling 

Edited by Awayoffski
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15 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

Guernboy,  Just to be clear,

could you have had your Yeti on Variable Servicing of 18,000 miles or 2 years but opted for fixed servicing of 9,400 mile or 372 days and the engine was serviced with 5w 30 FS Long Life Oil but missed this service by 2,000 miles,  or did you miss a Variable Service by 2,000 miles?

 

??

Which Skoda UK Communications manager would know nothing about the TPI's, Upgrade Parts and all the Warranty Work they have paid for, it must be 'Tommy' yet again!

Tell whoever it is to ask the CEO, he worked for Skoda, then VW on Warranties and is now back at Skoda UK, so knows what it has cost the VW Group so far.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/426162-timing-chain-rattling 

I believe the servicing is every year or 10,000 miles, which ever comes sooner. The point is though that this part has nothing to do with the servicing but with its build quality and should be admitted by vag.

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I know as SKODA UK /CZ do that it has nothing to do with your service interval.

 

But what matters is if your Service Code for the engine allowed Variable Servicing in 2011, and that you had Long Life oil from the Factory and then when you were 2,000 miles past a 9,400 mile service.

 

If so you need a Solicitor and an Independent Motor Engineering Experts Report and be prepared to take Skoda to court, 

that gets their attention and collective memories in action, because in Court SKODA / VW would be in trouble with a Judge ruling against them.

Setting a president is the biggest worry of the VW Group when they know they had 'Fundamental Design, Manufacturing or Material Failures and failings in Quality Control and then taking actions to reduce the failure of customers vehicles by not informing them there were preventative measures with Upgraded Parts available to be retro fitted.

 

All the best, get a Senior Manager at Skoda Customer Services on the case and do not allow the Dealership or some minion to be saying what the facts are.

Edited by Awayoffski
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Guernboy.  What year was your Yeti 1.2???

Have a look back through this topic and same topic in the yeti owners club forum and you will see:

1. Between 2009 and late 2011 the timing chain design for those engines was found to be too week and would stretch. (item not fit for purpose). The problem was admitted by senior company engineers and published in a German magazine, Auto Bild, in 2012.

2. A new stronger chain with associated new sprockets for cam and crank were designed and fitted. (also with chain guides to prevent stretched chains jumping cogs).

3. A Technical Product Information was sent out by VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group) Transaction No. 2026513/5 release date 01 Oct 2012.  You may find your dealer denies any knowledge of this item.....mine did but when I produced a copy there was an embarrassed look. Don't believe they know nothing about the problem.

4. It was a worldwide problem and VAG are well aware of the problem and Skoda are also.

5. They should have fitted a new design chain before damage was caused by chain failure.  In the early days a good dealer MAY have changed a chain but may have fitted a replacement which though new was one of the old bad designs!!!!!

6. The Guardian took up one case in May 2016 of an engine failure after 43,000 miles where Skoda were going to only offer a 20% contribution towards the £4,793 repair bill.  Skoda were persuaded to take a second look and agreed to fully cover the cost of repair.

7. My 2010 Yeti, at 35,000 miles, developed a rattle and became very difficult to start.  The dealer checked and diagnosed chain stretch and timing out by 2 teeth.  Chain was replaced at their expense (after first trying to get away with the old story.....never heard of this problem...until I showed them a copy of the TPI and my insisting I would not be contributing towards a failure due to known faulty design item).  50 miles later the engine came to a stop and was found to be wrecked.  They fitted a new engine at their cost (but yet again having tried on saying Skoda UK would only pay part......but then realising I knew the full story.)

8.  If you seem to be getting nowhere then we now have the Motoring  Ombudsman  Who I am sure would back your case for a free new engine fit.

9. Look back at my story in both forums under Den's Yeti.  Attached is various bits of info on the problem.

 

Dennis

 

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You now need this organisation https://www.themotorombudsman.org/ 

This is the organisation you now need to fight your case.  I would advise you print out the various relevant bits of info from these forums, including the TPI, the Gardian report (that was done by well known correspondent "Honest John")

You may even be able to get help from Honest John....he runs a website......google him.

 

The problem was admitted by senior company engineers and published in a German magazine, Auto Bild, in 2012.

Think you can still google this (if you can read German!)

Edited by DensYeti
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5 hours ago, DensYeti said:

Guernboy.  What year was your Yeti 1.2???

Have a look back through this topic and same topic in the yeti owners club forum and you will see:

1. Between 2009 and late 2011 the timing chain design for those engines was found to be too week and would stretch. (item not fit for purpose). The problem was admitted by senior company engineers and published in a German magazine, Auto Bild, in 2012.

2. A new stronger chain with associated new sprockets for cam and crank were designed and fitted. (also with chain guides to prevent stretched chains jumping cogs).

3. A Technical Product Information was sent out by VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group) Transaction No. 2026513/5 release date 01 Oct 2012.  You may find your dealer denies any knowledge of this item.....mine did but when I produced a copy there was an embarrassed look. Don't believe they know nothing about the problem.

4. It was a worldwide problem and VAG are well aware of the problem and Skoda are also.

5. They should have fitted a new design chain before damage was caused by chain failure.  In the early days a good dealer MAY have changed a chain but may have fitted a replacement which though new was one of the old bad designs!!!!!

6. The Guardian took up one case in May 2016 of an engine failure after 43,000 miles where Skoda were going to only offer a 20% contribution towards the £4,793 repair bill.  Skoda were persuaded to take a second look and agreed to fully cover the cost of repair.

7. My 2010 Yeti, at 35,000 miles, developed a rattle and became very difficult to start.  The dealer checked and diagnosed chain stretch and timing out by 2 teeth.  Chain was replaced at their expense (after first trying to get away with the old story.....never heard of this problem...until I showed them a copy of the TPI and my insisting I would not be contributing towards a failure due to known faulty design item).  50 miles later the engine came to a stop and was found to be wrecked.  They fitted a new engine at their cost (but yet again having tried on saying Skoda UK would only pay part......but then realising I knew the full story.)

8.  If you seem to be getting nowhere then we now have the Motoring  Ombudsman  Who I am sure would back your case for a free new engine fit.

9. Look back at my story in both forums under Den's Yeti.  Attached is various bits of info on the problem.

 

Dennis

 

Do you still have a copy of the TPI? 

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7 hours ago, Awayoffski said:

I know as SKODA UK /CZ do that it has nothing to do with your service interval.

 

But what matters is if your Service Code for the engine allowed Variable Servicing in 2011, and that you had Long Life oil from the Factory and then when you were 2,000 miles past a 9,400 mile service.

 

If so you need a Solicitor and an Independent Motor Engineering Experts Report and be prepared to take Skoda to court, 

that gets their attention and collective memories in action, because in Court SKODA / VW would be in trouble with a Judge ruling against them.

Setting a president is the biggest worry of the VW Group when they know they had 'Fundamental Design, Manufacturing or Material Failures and failings in Quality Control and then taking actions to reduce the failure of customers vehicles by not informing them there were preventative measures with Upgraded Parts available to be retro fitted.

 

All the best, get a Senior Manager at Skoda Customer Services on the case and do not allow the Dealership or some minion to be saying what the facts are.

I have downloaded the TPI document from this forum, and forgive my lack of knowledge but does this document relate to all engines fitted with this chain or just the 1.2? I notice at the back of the PDFs that it does mention a few models but not the yeti.

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19 hours ago, Awayoffski said:

I know as SKODA UK /CZ do that it has nothing to do with your service interval.

 

But what matters is if your Service Code for the engine allowed Variable Servicing in 2011, and that you had Long Life oil from the Factory and then when you were 2,000 miles past a 9,400 mile service.

 

If so you need a Solicitor and an Independent Motor Engineering Experts Report and be prepared to take Skoda to court, 

that gets their attention and collective memories in action, because in Court SKODA / VW would be in trouble with a Judge ruling against them.

Setting a president is the biggest worry of the VW Group when they know they had 'Fundamental Design, Manufacturing or Material Failures and failings in Quality Control and then taking actions to reduce the failure of customers vehicles by not informing them there were preventative measures with Upgraded Parts available to be retro fitted.

 

All the best, get a Senior Manager at Skoda Customer Services on the case and do not allow the Dealership or some minion to be saying what the facts are.

I have downloaded the TPI document from this forum, and forgive my lack of knowledge but does this document relate to all engines fitted with this chain or just the 1.2? I notice at the back of the PDFs that it does mention a few models but not the yeti.

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Nice one, good to hear they came good in the end. What a pity you had to force their hand with their own TPI and information "Googled" off the internet. They must have been aware of the issues associated with the engine. Warranty and dealer backup are one of the things that for many buyer swings them one way or another when they purchase a new vehicle, it's always disturbing when they try to wriggle out of putting things right that are down to them.

 

Anyway chuffed for you that it's going to be resolved to your satisfaction.:) 

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Glad to hear a good result.  The timing chain problem was with the 1.2 Tsi VW, Skoda etc fitted with that engine.

 

Unfortunately I have just broken down again tonight......2300 Thursday actually.  All had been fine and returning home when suddenly started to judder and ecu, little engine sign and skidy car sign lit up.  Called RAC but they did not get to us till 0200...(thats 3 hours!!!)....then it was not RAC but a contract firm and he did not have a VW diagnostic tester!!!!  He switched on and warning lights had gone....started it and said sounded like it had gone into limp mode and was missing and no power under load (without actually trying it in gear!!.   Loaded onto lorry took us home (about 3 miles) and took car away to drop it off with main dealers in Barnstaple.  So none the wiser as to what the trouble might have been.

 

Good job I have got a good reliable classic Reliant Scimitar to fall back on out here in the wilds of NW Devon. 

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Glad the matter was resolved...I thank my lucky stars  I recognised all was not right with starting, idling noises etc and got rid of my 2010 1.2 Yeti as soon as warranty was up.. Great design but just too unreliable!

Qashqai for the last four years or so has not been as exciting but certainly less stressful!!

Edited by calmac
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5 hours ago, calmac said:

Great design but just too unreliable!

 

Not sure I'd agree with that at all.

 

My view would be it's poor design, poor quality and poor support. The design was so poor in-fact, that the 1.2 engine had a complete re-design. There must be literally 100's if not 1000's of owners out there, who by now have possibly bought the car secondhand who have no idea at all that their car could have a catastrophic engine failure at relatively small mileages.

 

Instead of doing he "right-thing" and issuing a recall for effected vehicles VAG choose to say nothing,  worse still dealers appear to deny all knowledge of the problem leaving the customer to pick up the the bill. (unless your lucky to know they are lying to your face) Because it's not viewed as a "safety critical" part VAG are not obliged by law to do anything about it, so pass the buck.

 

If VAG had an ounce of honesty or integrity left in them they would have issued letters to owners advising them to have the car inspected for premature chain stretch. (It wouldn't surprise me if it was as easy as interrogating the ECU) From what I've read the de-facto test is measuring the cam chain tensioner length. I think I read on here that the cost of a total engine replacement is in the region of £4.5K, on a 5 year old car that would be enough to write it off. Weighed against the cost of chain replacement that (I would have thought would possibly be a little more than a cam belt.) Thing is they don't see it as money saving as they have no intention of paying for it anyway, especially if they can bully the customer and wriggle out of it. It's the sort of behaviour you'd expect from an "Arthur Daley" back street garage not a main agent of a major manufacturer.

 

 

Edited by DampDog
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 Emissions scandal, the problem with brake sensor lights on earlier VW cars , the Yeti faults outlined in this forum etc etc.Yet still VAG continues to foster the illusion that its cars are reliable and its dealers reputable. I don't know how they get away with it!

Edited by calmac
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14 hours ago, DensYeti said:

Glad to hear a good result.  The timing chain problem was with the 1.2 Tsi VW, Skoda etc fitted with that engine.

 

Unfortunately I have just broken down again tonight......2300 Thursday actually.  All had been fine and returning home when suddenly started to judder and ecu, little engine sign and skidy car sign lit up.  Called RAC but they did not get to us till 0200...(thats 3 hours!!!)....then it was not RAC but a contract firm and he did not have a VW diagnostic tester!!!!  He switched on and warning lights had gone....started it and said sounded like it had gone into limp mode and was missing and no power under load (without actually trying it in gear!!.   Loaded onto lorry took us home (about 3 miles) and took car away to drop it off with main dealers in Barnstaple.  So none the wiser as to what the trouble might have been.

 

Good job I have got a good reliable classic Reliant Scimitar to fall back on out here in the wilds of NW Devon. 

Bad luck or same old same old. Time for Watchdog perhaps? 

 

Let us us know how you get on.

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3 hours ago, calmac said:

 Emissions scandal, the problem with brake sensor lights on earlier VW cars , the Yeti faults outlined in this forum etc etc.Yet still VAG continues to foster the illusion that its cars are reliable and its dealers reputable. I don't know how they get away with it!

 

I sometimes wonder if the motoring press shouldn't be shining a spotlight on these sort of shenanigans. Then again if they did highlight some of these problems I'm sure their supply of vehicles to test and long term freebies would dry up pretty quickly.  

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  • 2 months later...

Ref my breakdown in March 2017.

It turned out to be a defective plug lead.  The final bill for fault find and supply and fit a new set of leads was a ridiculous over £200!!

The RAC did not send a breakdown man just a recovery truck with a man with no equipment to plug into the diagnostics, otherwise I feel sure it could have been diagnosed as dead plug lead and we could have taken it the 1 mile to my nearby local good garage and had the problem cured at about £150 less (my garage told me what they would have charged for the work).  Also main dealer is 30 miles away so involved the extra time and milage of collecting fixed Yeti and main dealer had no courtesy car available while work done; local garage would have supplied courtesy car free..  Main dealer £100 per hour labour and marked up price for plug lead set.  Local garage £40 per hour and around half the price for good quality plug leads.........they looked at the lead and said it was just corroded where it plugs into the coil pack...so would have cleaned up and been ok!!!!!  

I would like to clean up and test the lead.  How do you get the lead off the coil pack?  I have tried pulling pretty hard and it will not budge...I don't want to cause any damage.  I see there is a small what looks like a springy wire clip in the end of the lead terminal.

 

I complained to the RAC about the above delay (3 hours between 2200 call and 0200 eventual attendance) and extra costs I had to bear and eventually they gave me £50 compensation.

 

I was thinking of changing to an Octavia estate (1.4/1.5 petrol) as the Yeti has proved just a little too short for lugging bits around.....though I do like the Yeti (1.2 tsi petrol) for its high ground clearance.  It is a bit of a pain power wise and needs a lot of gear stirring on hilly countryside.......but then perhaps I am a bit spoiled with my Reliant Scimitar and its 2.8 L engine with plenty of torque giving effortless driving.

Also after having to have all brake disks and one seized rear calliper replaced (by local garage) All parts were very dry, disks rusty and had not seen any grease on the pads/callipers sliding surfaces. I do not think much of the Skoda Servicing on my full service history 40,000 mile car. I do around 8 - 9,000 miles a year in it and being rural it gets less exposure to salty roads.  Again my 90,000 mile Scimitar just has not had the brake problems and I easily maintain it myself (just brake pads renewed last time it needed looking at).

 

I am seriously thinking of looking at the Dacia big estate (Logan?) as an alternative.  I hate all the frills and unnecessary expensive to fix tech on modern cars......if there are going to be difficult to fix and expensive problems on all moderns then might as well start with buying at as low a cost as possible?

 

Sorry if this has been a boring rant.

 

Dennis

 

 

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2 hours ago, DensYeti said:

Ref my breakdown in March 2017.

It turned out to be a defective plug lead.  The final bill for fault find and supply and fit a new set of leads was a ridiculous over £200!!

The RAC did not send a breakdown man just a recovery truck with a man with no equipment to plug into the diagnostics, otherwise I feel sure it could have been diagnosed as dead plug lead and we could have taken it the 1 mile to my nearby local good garage and had the problem cured at about £150 less (my garage told me what they would have charged for the work).  

 

Quote

That's always been the problem with the RAC.  They don't have anything like the number of vehicles that the AA have and just rely on garages to do their breakdown work for them.  That means, of course, that there's no incentive at all to fix the problem at the roadside, and every incentive to take it into a garage for an expensive repair job.  Almost certainly an AA patrol would have identified the problem, and fixed it.  On the odd occasion that I've used them I've always been incredibly impressed with their knowledge and ability to fix things.  The last time involved a small piece of gravel which had got into one of the front brakes.  The RAC would have towed it to a garage, but the AA stripped down the brake and fixed the problem.

 

Quote

 

 

Edited by docc
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  • 2 months later...

When I started having 1.2 tsi timing chain issues, some of the threads on this site were very useful but I couldn't find anything very up to date - ie in 2017  (although this thread seems pretty up to date!) - so here's an update based on my experience this last month or so.

 

On first noticing that my wife's 2010 Yeti 1.2 with 48k miles on the clock was sounding like a diesel on start, I suspected the timing chain. It was very erratic and stayed erratic but when it happened it was very noisy for about 5-10s and then settled down.

 

The first time I took it to my Skoda Dealer, they "investigated" and just topped up the oil - which of course did nothing. At the next service about a a month ago I insisted they kept it for a couple of days during which they witnessed the rattle themselves and agreed it was a timing chain issue. They quoted £675 for the repair.

 

I had quite a battle with the service manager to admit that this was a well-known issue and that Skoda should contribute to the cost of the repair. He was actually quite negative stating that I had no chance of getting anything out of Skoda with a 7 year old car. Even with the evidence of the TPI, he wasn't having any of it.

 

I then rang Skoda customer services and raised a complaint. I have to say that they were excellent. They liaised with the dealer to check the diagnosis and they rang every few days to update me with a progress report. All I had to do was supply them with a copy of the service history. That was my trump card I think - a full Skoda dealer service history.

 

Behind the scenes I suspect that Skoda talked to the dealer and explained the procedure as, the next time I went into them, they had prepared a goodwill claim and claimed a Skoda contribution towards the cost - which Skoda accepted. It was a very different attitude from the service manager this time.

 

Skoda paid 100% for the parts and 60% for the labour. My 40% contribution came to £178 which I think is a good deal. I asked to see the parts list and it included the chain, tensioner, guides and sprockets.

 

So the procedure seems to be that the dealer should diagnose the problem, raise either a warranty or a good will claim with Skoda who will then consider the merits of the case. Getting the dealer to raise the claim seems to be the hardest part - perseverance is required.

 

I know that some will say that Skoda should cover the whole of the cost and I have sympathy with that view but I think I got a good result given the age of the car.

 

I hope this post may help others trying to deal with a timing chain issue. I'll add it to the few threads I discovered in my research.

 

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  • 11 months later...

Bit of a random first post here, but had this issue of the timing chain flagged up during service on my 1.2tsi Monte Carlo Mk2 fabia (2012) and thanks to the forum here via google I flagged it as a known issue with main dealer and with little to no battle they have paid for 100% parts and 60% labour. So thanks to the forum on this one, in the meantime they let me borrow a little Citigo which has actually impressed me :)  

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Welcome to the forum.

 

Well done.

Could you maybe put a post in the Fabia Mk2 section because your experience might help others having issues with 1.2 TSI's with Timing Chain & Skoda UK / Main Dealerships.

Those with Roomsters with the same issue might see your post there as well as it is quite a common thing that members ask about.

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Since owning a 1.2tsi Roomie for 5 years I have been perturbed by reports on this forum website regarding the quality of engine reliability and design. Timing chains have been around for years, my Dolomite had one in the 70s (in fact two a Duplex chain) and my current 18-year-old Corsa is still running on the original chain, so why hasn't the VW group able to design bomb-proof engines to eradicate timing chain issues? Next time around VW group will not be my first choice. Fortunately for me my chain is not troublesome. 

Edited by edbostan
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  • 4 months later...

IMO the VAG timing chain problem is due to a combination of 3 things

 

1. Change of chain type from conventional roller chain to inverted tooth chains (also known as silent chains)

 

Many more pivot points to wear which leads to "chain stretch". So better quality, correctly dimensioned chains and sprockets required.

 

http://chain-guide.com/applications/1-6-3-inverted-tooth-chain.html

 

Silent Chains must be lubricated during operation. Use an oil bath if the speed is less than 600 m/min. If the speed is more than 600 m/min., or if the shaft center distance is short, use a pump or forced lubrication. Silent Chains wear rapidly without lubrication.

 

The notch on the plates can engage with the sprockets from only one direction. The chain is not for reversing applications. (See below)

 

 

2. Poor hydraulic tensioner design/quality, not sure but it seems the internal ratchet wears away so the tensioner can release. Allow the engine to reverse (either a bounce back from an incomplete compression stroke when stopping or vehicle moved while parked in gear) applies excess pressure on the tensioner, pushes back and is not self retensioning, it requires the engine to run to tension up, way too late if the chain is stretched! In addition, inverted tooth chains ride up on sprockets when reversed.

 

3. The top mounted filter with servicing drain down feature. Unfortunately prone to incorrect installation, overtightened or sloppy installation by not removing the old drain down seal that can hide under black oil and fitting the new seal on top of it. Basically, Murphy's law applies.

 

 

Edited by xman
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