75ps V's 60 ps

[Michaelski]

Hi ronime,

I may (just "may") have occasionally hit/exceeded 4000 revs, but not as a matter of habit, & if I did, it was probably when joining a motorway, and wanting to get up to speed asap.   Having said that, my requirements from a car are now basically that:

I simply get from A to B, & I do it as economically & as comfortably as possible - my days of being a "head down, arse up" motorist are over.   I have consistently driven at speeds well North of 135 in a former life, & when in Germany, but those days are now over.   

 

Anyways, there's far too many "sneaky" speed traps lurking out there, & these boyo's are not there to improve road safety (as they invariably claim) but to simply generate income - pukka gen traffic cops are one thing to deal with, and tend to be slightly flexible & approachable, whereas the current trend if more towards these speed partnerships, & which are simply there to generate income.      You can forget Association of Chief Constables recommendations of the speed limit + 10% + perhaps 2 mph, Speed Partnerships zero in on (& prosecute) anyone exceeding the limit even by 1-2 mph - this is where they obtain their healthy profits, & how can you even to begin to argue your case?    They don't want people to go to Court & take the possible Points, as they don't benefit from the fines, they want people to take the Speed Awareness Course (varies between £100 - £140, depending where you are caught) as they then keep all of the proceeds.   I personally know people who were adamant that they were done at 33 in a 30 limit (they'd no reason to lie) & quite obviously opted for the SAC in preference to having Points & being loaded on their Insurance.    By their accounts, they were subjected to a bum-numbing 3+ hours harangue, by pompous, pontificating "job worthy's" who earned just a few miserable quid for their services providing  there were sufficient offenders to justify them being called up for duty.

 

So, no, I now try to drive strictly in accordance with the speed limits.    I'm not a "kiss-ass" but prefer to opt for a boring, albeit a less financially-punitive life, but, you pays your money & you takes your choice.        I'm never in that much of a hurry these days, & if, or more likely, when I do get "done" it's going to be because of a momentary lack of attention, rather than trying to exploit the performance of the car.

 

And as far as opting for the 75 bhp, rather than the 60, it was more of a case that when SWMBO & I were looking for another car, the Stealership had one that suited us both, in transit (& therefore no waiting time), & it just turned out to the 75 bhp Elegance.  Could just as easily have been a 60, but we'd still probably have taken it.     

Edited 4 June, 2017 by Michaelski

[Rooted]

Plenty Average Speed Cameras, Fixed Speed Cameras and Safety Partnership Mobile Units in Scotland and no Speed Awareness Courses, 

and there is a different scheme for over speed limit and Police Educating you, official caution or prosecutions.

 

If you are getting caught at 33 in a 30 mph limit then likely the speedo indicated 35mph or so.

You get the picture that was taken from the van / camera if you are innocent surely and do not just assume the position without lubrication.

[ohnoes]

13 hours ago, Awayoffski said:

Plenty Average Speed Cameras, Fixed Speed Cameras and Safety Partnership Mobile Units in Scotland and no Speed Awareness Courses, 

and there is a different scheme for over speed limit and Police Educating you, official caution or prosecutions.

 

If you are getting caught at 33 in a 30 mph limit then likely the speedo indicated 35mph or so.

You get the picture that was taken from the van / camera if you are innocent surely and do not just assume the position without lubrication.

 

National guidance is that the police do not start to enforce the speed limit until 10%+2MPH ...i.e. 30MPH zone wouldn't usually see enforcement unless you were clocked doing 35MPH which would be higher than that on your speedo.

Edited 5 June, 2017 by ohnoes

[Rooted]

National England & Wales Guidelines.

Police Scotland started a new pilot Scheme 2015 and adopted it 2016.

Police get new powers as they set sights on drivers just over speed limit (From HeraldScotland).mhtml

Edited 5 June, 2017 by Awayoffski

[Michaelski]

Hi Guys,

Well I take on board all of your remarks, but (& it is a beeeeg "but") my friend was adamant that he checked his speedo when he first saw the mobile cash machine, parked up in a layby some 200 yards ahead, & he was doing an indicated 33 mph.  My little Tonka Toy always registers some 10+% more than the actual speed as indicated by the PID, & presumably (he was also driving a Citigo) his was the same.  When he attended his SAC, all the "dirty, rotten speeders" had to lurch to their feet, & announce (in a very loud voice) what heinous crime had brought them there.   According to my friend, there were 2-3 "foul criminals" who'd been caught doing well North of 35 in a 30 limit, but the vast majority were all in the 31-35 bracket.      It seems that the Police do monitor the speeders caught by these SCP's, & a SAC can only be offered to offenders caught within a very narrow spectrum - outside of that band, then these people have to face the wrath of the Courts.    With there being such a narrow band where a SCP can operate & benefit, it does seem highly logical that they're going to target these trivial offenders to the maximum.   And whilst the ACC's make "recommend" not enforcing speeding within the LSL + 10% - + 2 mph, & Traffic Branch tend to apply this recommendation,  the Law of the land does not - 30 is 30 in the Law!     And this is the loophole that the SCP's exploit.   Irrespective of all the self-justifying claims that they make, they're there to make money - heaps & heaps of it.

 

And whilst the "guidelines" and the recommendations of the ACC's are as I said (& ohnoes confirmed) the Speed Camera Partnerships seem to be totally independent of Police rcommendations, and go their own merry little way - the whole idea in their case, is to generate income for themselves & which they split with the controlling L/A: that's what they are set up for, & they pay no more than a cursory "lip service" to the official guidelines - if they didn't, then they wouldn't be making the highly profitable business that they do, out of it.     Official figures (as far as one can actually check on them) is that currently, Millions of £'s are generated by Speed Camera Partnerships.   It also seems to be a lamentable trend, that Senior Coppers take early retirement, & are signed up by a SCP.   Try whopping that into Google, there's plenty of informed reports out there , especially the somewhat-controversial ex CC in North Wales, who was caught by his own, doing well North of a ton, but still joined a SCP.

 

Scotland (according to Wayoffski) is obviously different, & more flexible in their approach.  But whilst you perhaps "should" receive the official photograph, in my friends case, there was no photograph, or indeed proof of any kind, just a bare statement "you were caught driving at 33 mph, in excess of the 30 mph limit, & you have the choice of taking the matter to Court, but risk a heavier fine & Points on your licence, or you can accept our offer of a SAC (this will cost you £95), & receive no Points or an endorsement" (I know, I saw it)   Couched in terms like that, what would one do?   Yeah, he could perhaps have demanded some form of proof, like the photograph, or verification that the Camera had been officially calibrated that day (& he did briefly consider this) but the chances were, if he'd have challenged them, that his offer of the SAC would have been speedily withdrawn, & he was going to have to have his case heard in Court, & risk 3 Points & whatever Fine came his way.    Yeah, possibly he could have escaped unscathed if he'd have rejected the SAC & opted to be heard in Court, but hey, easy options - which is what the SCP's rely on.

 

 

[Rooted]

Simples, your friend was caught, your friend never requested the evidence.

Many are over the speed limit quite often, they get caught and make a song and dance.

Check the accuracy of the speed because tyres sizes change that, then stick to the NSL's or below, simples. 

Or just risk it for a biscuit.

[Michaelski]

Indeed, indeedy, Awayoffski,

He was alleged to have been caught, & he never requested conclusive proof either.  But as I said, if he had challenged the decision, just one of two things would have happened: either the charge would have been simply withdrawn, or it would have been sent to the Court - in which case, he may have well got away with little more than a slapped wrist.   But he simply wan't prepared to take the risk: shelled out his £95, and spent 3 1/2 bum-numbingly hours listening to a monotonous & repetitive diatribe of "how speed kills".   According to him, he also had to partake most enthusiastically in the proceedings (also enforced in the written instructions for the SAC) or he would be booted off the "Course" (his £95 wouldn't have been refunded, either) & the full majestic weight of the law would descend upon him. 

Under the circumstances, he accepted the SAC: "participated" as far as his conscience would allow, & left, vowing never to accept a SAC again - he would, if the circumstances ever arose, attend Court & risk being either hung, drawn & Quartered or exiled to Botany Bay for his natural life.   But one guy (a biker) did challenge some of the more ridiculous statements made (eg. the stopping distance in the HC was quoted verbatim, irrespective of (as he rightfully queried) whether the vehicle was a car, lorry or a steamroller, & totally irrespective of how good the braking system or the tyres were.  As a mark of appreciation, the guy was instructed to remove himself, for disputing the statements of the 2 jobsworths, & told to await the summons from the Court.    Judging by various comments on the Internet, from "unfortunates" who've taken a SAC, this isn't uncommon.

 

You should count yourself lucky that there aren't any SAC's in Scotland, otherwise if you personally were to be hauled to account for a slight excess (that Traffic Branch probably wouldn't even stop you for) & had to shell out for a SAC: with unveiled threats as matching accessories, you too may regard these Partnerships as nothing more than a licence for printing money.

 

Yeah, in theory, never exceed a speed limit, but it's extremely difficult to stick to a maximum of 30, least of all just the limit in a 20 mph zone - you can exceed that when simply accelerating through the gears, however unintentionally.

 

 

[Rooted]

You are joking, but nothing funny about 3 points & £100 minimum,  then the Insurance wants £35 to make a change on your proposal and increase the Premium on renewal.

But have 3 or 4 policies on different vehicles of which you can only drive one at a time. 

4 x£35, and 4 Insurance Premiums increased.

 

Now that is not natural justice, that is not a Fixed Penalty, / Court fine, that is just extra money with Insurers / Brokers.

Edited 5 June, 2017 by Awayoffski

[Michaelski]

I totally agree that there's not nuffin funny about £100 & 3 points - + the inevitable loading on your Insurance premium.

 

Which is precisely why my friend opted for the SAC - seemed like the lesser of 2 evils to him, even though it was "Pants" from beginning to end.    I've actually been subjected to a SAC myself, & his words had the hollow bitterness of reality.

 

But there ain't not no justice in this fayre land of ours, just "licences to print money" & the Speed Partnerships are the front runners in this respect.     But sooner or later (I reckon) HM Government will calculate just how much moulah they're missing out on (many, many Millions), & will eventually act to redirect this income into their own coffers.      But to be able to do that, they firstly have to increase the number of Coppers (& of course, the Traffic Branch) & that's going to cost them money that they currently seem disinclined to spend.     Getting done for exceeding a speed limit seems to be the only crime where one is neither given a Crime Number, or the obligatory 2 hours Community work.  

 

And on the subject of Insurance, I've just this week renewed my own - despite not having a claim, it went up just over £40 (85%, in fact) but what can one do?    It's still apparently cheaper than most Insurers out there (& I couldn't be arsed to spend the remainder of my declining days in shopping around) so I took the "easy option" & simply renewed it.      The expression "caught between a rock & a hard place", springs to mind.

Edited 6 June, 2017 by Michaelski

[ronime]

On 04/06/2017 at 20:01, Michaelski said:

And as far as opting for the 75 bhp, rather than the 60, it was more of a case that when SWMBO & I were looking for another car, the Stealership had one that suited us both, in transit (& therefore no waiting time), & it just turned out to the 75 bhp Elegance.  Could just as easily have been a 60, but we'd still probably have taken it.     

 

Pretty much same here. I was looking for a good, used Elegance 3-door and a Skoda dealer happened to have a very low mileage, 11-month old example that they needed to liquidate.

 

As it happened the car was a 75PS GreenTech and it has rarely exceeded 4,000rpm in the almost two years that I have owned it.

[ohnoes]

On 6/5/2017 at 14:01, Michaelski said:

Hi Guys,

Well I take on board all of your remarks, but (& it is a beeeeg "but") my friend was adamant that he checked his speedo when he first saw the mobile cash machine, parked up in a layby some 200 yards ahead, & he was doing an indicated 33 mph. 

 

 

 

More than likely, the speed camera van clocked him from much further away, before he noticed it and slowed down. They can measure speed from quite a way off.

[Michaelski]

Hi ronime,

Yeah, indeed, indeedy.   I genuinely think that one HAS to drive these cars with the respect that they warrant.  If I (& presumably you) wanted a car that one could habitually redline (& smell burnt rubber as matching accessories) , then we wouldn't have gone for a Citigo.     It's simply "horses for courses" (or even hourses for corses) in my book - at my advanced age, my requirements are simply that the Old Memsahib & I get from A to B, as reliably: cheaply & as comfortably as possible.  And the Citigo seems to tick all of the boxes.

 

Hi  ohnoes,

I fear that you are right - I was "done" myself in a former life.  I was leaving a very long 60 mph stretch way out in the "sticks" & entering a 30 limit in a miniscule village.     I did see the mobile cash machine parked up in a layby, & I did brake hard (couldn't stand the car on its' nose, as I was at the front of a long line of traffic) but "obviously" (or perhaps not, as I never received any photo in confirmation) I was over the 30 limit, when the MCM zapped me.     From various comments made, it would appear that by the time one notices a MCM, they've already zeroed in on you, & if one IS exceeding the limit, it's far too late to take any "avoiding action".   These Partnerships are NOT there to increase the safety on our roads, but just to generate income.   I very often see these MCM's (they tend to "nest" in exactly the same place) & they're not sited where there's proved accident black spots, but simply where there's a good chance of "slotting" people who haven't sufficiently reduced enough speed when leaving a higher, and entering a lower speed limit. 

[Michaelski]

Hi ohnoes,

This would indeed seem to be the case.

When I received the Mark of Zorro, for slightly being in excess of the limit (this being way out in the sticks, albeit on a popular route to the Coast) I did a fair amount of investigations.            The census of opinion (presumably learned) was that if you yourself could see the Mobile Cash Machine. then it was far too late, as it would have picked you up minutes earlier. 

 

I KNOW that within but a few yards of entering the 30 zone, I was down to less than 30 (I'd seen the van, and braked hard - taking some 30,000 miles off the linings of my brakes in the process), but I'd just moved from a very long rural 60 road, and dropping down to the 30 legal limit possibly had taken me a few yards.    T'would seem that the camera was focussed on the actual 30 sign, and  despite it being some 200 yards away, it was clocking one motorist after another.   Either that, or (in the absence of photographic proof) they were just pushing their luck somewhat, & raking in the fruits of their labours.       Who would ever know?

[Luckypants]

As this has changed into a discussion about speeding, it is worth mentioning that the law on speeding changed in April (24th to be exact) and the system of fines used if you go to court are now more draconian. This may be to force more folks to accept an FPN or SAC or it may be to deal with bad speeding more appropriately - you can make up your own mind on that one!

 

The new system is fairly complicated if you end up in court so I looked a round for a summary of the new system. This article sums up the state of play fairly well.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/the-truth-about-speeding-fines/

[Michaelski]

Hi Luckypants, & thanks for the telegraph article - most interesting reading!

Basically, it all seems to comes down to the fact that unless one always drives at "snail speed" (which should be good for traffic flow) or has their eyes glued (superglued???) to their Speedometer (which should be good for general road safety), they're not going to know whether their asses are drilled, bored or countersunk.

Welcome to the "land of the Free"!

 

[Michaelski]

Hi all,

Reverting to my original thread, ie. the one before I got started on the favourite buzzard in my burnous - Mobile Cash Machines, & which was the benefits/non benefits of using Premium fuel, I today happened to call in at a local Co-op for a newspaper.   As chance would have it, there was a tanker there, filling up their tanks, (Greeenergy, I think the Tanker was) so I took the opportunity of asking the driver his opinions on the subject of different petrol.

 

He told me that in his (considerable) experience, all supplies of petrol came from the same Refinery, & also that he personally delivered directly to the Co-op (which means that they sell the bog-standard ex-Refinery fuel) but that he also delivered to BP, Esso, Tesco & Asda (& so on ad infinitum), but for the latter lot, he delivered to their main fuel depots, where (according to him) they laced the fuel with their own "additives".     Also, according to him, the "biggies" (BP & Esso I presume) added their own secret "Premium" additives, whereas the huggerem buggerem of Asda, Tesco & Morrisons, possibly poured in a tea spoon full of Olive Oil/Worcester Sauce/ White Wine Vinegar or whatever.    He maintained that at the price that the cut-price Filling Stations sold their fuel, it can't be much different from the straight-from-the-Refinery supply, and nothing better about them.

 

I'm no expert (you can say that again) but to me, it all had the ring of sense.

 

You pays yer money, & you takes what it buys you.

[Rooted]

Setting aside your Detergents that maybe you want.

 

Greenergy is partly owned by TESCO, Greenergy supplies TESCO, and produces TESCO MOMENTUM 99, 

They also supply lots of the UK ESSO Stations.

Greenergy & Royal Dutch Shell co-own importation facilities in the UK and Storage & Distribution Depots.

 

You do pay your money and make your choices, but if you think you want some information then best look at the products with a bit less jest and more research.

 

 

UKPIA - Refining Britain's Fuels - Refineries.mhtml

Edited 17 June, 2017 by Awayoffski

[Michaelski]

17 hours ago, Awayoffski said:

 

 but if you think you want some information then best look at the products with a bit less jest and more research.

 

Lighten up a bit, Awayoffski, if you take the "jest" out of life, then just what the hell are you left with?    Anyone now over the age of 65 knows that there's damn little else to encourage one to continue living. 

And as I said in a previous lifetime, shelling out the extra for Premium fuel only equates to around a coffee for the memsahib & I once per month. & in the greater scheme of things, what does that matter? 

 

And this Greenergy mob supplies the Co-op (at least the one near to me), though they don't actually have any signs up, showing just whose fuel customers are buying.   And in reinforcement of the dictum that one can never "account for people's actions", Morrisons own Station is less than 2 "easy" miles away, & they're selling fuel at some 10p per litre cheaper than the Co-op.       But there's always a continual queue of drivers filling up at the Co-op.   Even with my abysmal maths, I've calculated that for someone shoving just 30 litres in to their car, they're forking out some £4 extra, whereas for the outlay of a measly 13p, they could save themselves around £5 per average tank.    You can never introduce either logic or someone else's notion of common sense into everyday life. 

 

I've learned something about fuel in the process, and a soupcon of knowledge never goes amiss - even if one has no intention of being brainwashed into following someone else's cult.    I'll probably continue to buy Tesco's Momentum 99, even though I've no intention to keep the car after its 3rd birthday.

I reckon the car runs better on Premium + petrol, & as that makes an old man happy in his declining years, then "happiness" doesn't cost all that much. 

17 hours ago, Awayoffski said:

 

 

 

[ronime]

Gents, can we draw a line under this now, please?

 

This thread has turned into a diatribe about supermarket brand premium fuels and as such is way off topic. None of this helps any current or potential new Citigo owners looking for wisdom on which engine to go for.

[Rooted]

They have the first pages to read do they not if they need to know about 75ps vs 60ps, or the other threads over the years?

 

How often can you say, horses for courses, try them yourself see what suits.

60ps as good as 75ps etc etc 

[john999boy]

8 minutes ago, ronime said:

Gents, can we draw a line under this now, please?

It's all too easy to stray OT but as has been suggested, maybe now is the time to concentrate on the actual topic. 

[Rooted]

Topic was posted 2013, lots of answers, is there some change 4 years on from 60ps vs 75ps.

[Welsh_kai_boy]

The thread topic maybe old but John has asked you to revert back on topic, if you want to discuss further create a new thread.

[Rooted]

"is there some change 4 years on from 60ps vs 75ps"  i thought that was back on topic.

Edited 18 June, 2017 by Awayoffski

[Michaelski]

Hi guys, & as I was probably the guilty party in initiating the straying "off thread", I'll take the full the full & undiluted blame (I'm married, so taking the blame for everything from the weather, to a Tanker collision in the Arabian Gulf, comes as second nature to me), & issue grovelling apologies.

 

All that I will say, is that as I have a 75 bhp at the moment, & No. 1 son has a 60, & I've driven/been a passenger in both versions over numerous miles. 

 

But when my PCP is up (in approximately one year from now) & assuming that I do go for another Citigo (more than likely) I'll go for the 60, rather than the 75.             Perhaps (& I say only "perhaps") the 75 has "some" advantages over the 60 (although I personally haven't noticed any), although to upgrade from a 60 to a 75, is only a few hundred quid, so we're not talking about SOTA improved engineering here.   The 60 is higher geared, & still does 43% more than the speed limit, which is more than adequate for me (& probably most ****-scared-of-speed-traps people).            Also, it would appear that as substantial numbers of new Citigo's trundle out of the factory with a 60 engine as standard -  the SE, the Colour Edition & even the Monte Carlo (which is advertised as the "flash" version) comes with a 60 engine as standard, so it is conceivable that the Citigo was possibly designed with the 60 engine in mind, & the 75 was but an afterthought, aimed at possibly scooping up yet a further few (& it is but a few) hundred quid.             Certainly (although it could be just my imagination), No. 1 son's 60 sounds "purrier" than mine, and although mine's a Greentech, his is no less economical.              If one drives well North of the legal speed limit, then perhaps that is when the 70 comes into its' own - but I don't, I'm too wary about speed traps.   If one habitually thrashes the engine to within an inch of its' little life, then perhaps the 75 holds certain advantages - but I don't do that either, I never have a need to, and in any case, it goes against my inherent nature to "hammer" the living daylights out of an engine. 

 

Most Citigo-allied topics are well thrashed out on Briskoda, & if there were any blatant "failings" of the 60 engine, then I'm sure that they would have been aired far & wide, & we'd all be in possession of owners' apprehensions. 

 

So, in attempted crawling humiliation for straying off-piste, I personally have a 75 bhp: have done oodles of research & made mega enquiries (most competitors which have City cars only are offering around 60 bhp), & when I next go for a Citigo, it's going to be a 60 - whatever model it may be.

 

Hope that this helps?????????????????

Edited 19 June, 2017 by Michaelski