75ps V's 60 ps

[Michaelski]

Hi Citigouk, & a somewhat (define “somewhat”) belated reply.

 

Insurance costs seem to TOTALLY depend on the background of the individual driver & the value of the car, not to mention which  particular Company is the Insurer.     eg. My insurance (for a new 75 PS Elegance) is considerably lower than that of our 42 year old son (who has a new 60PS ES model).

 

To further confuse the issue, our 40 year old daughter, who has just bought a 3 year old 60PS Elegance model, is being charged some 3+ times what I'm paying.     Mind you, having known her for 40 years, I'm somewhat surprised that anyone was prepared to actually insure her (having seen her aim her car in just the general direction of the far horizon, I wouldn’t).

 

As far as economy & performance is concerned, it is my honest opinion that the 60PS is consistently MORE economical than the 75 (even with the Stop/Start facility), & apart from perhaps going well North of 95 mph, there's very little to choose in the performance.

 

RFL at the moment equates to £zippo for mine, & £20 for No. 1 son..

 

When the RFL Banding changes (only for cars registered AFTER  March 2017) the respective charges will be £120 & £140 (in year one) & £140 thereafter for both of us.    But if you hang on to your current cars (which he probably will, & I probably won’t) then you continue to pay according to the current Banding.     So, if I change mine after 3 years, even if I only keep that one for 3 years, then I’ll be stiffed for an extra £400 during just that period.   That’s assuming that the government don’t change the field of play, yet again.

 

To cynical me, I reckon that the big attraction of downsizing to cars emitting less than 100 grams, will virtually disappear, & the various car manufacturers will somewhat lose interest in updating their current offerings. 

Edited 24 March, 2016 by Michaelski

[Michaelski]

In the spirit of heady true adventure, & free from all financial constraints of common sense (aka as SWMBO strict-control), before leaving for a longish journey in my 18 month old 75 BHP Greentech, I filled it up with BP Supreme go-faster juice.  It may have been just my imagination (that, or the fact that I really needed to justify lashing out the additional £5) but it DID seem as though the car ran much, much smoothly: had more than just a tad more of eager acceleration & was marginally more economical -  I was booting it slightly through the Peak District, but still came back with 65 mpg registered.

 

Yeah, so "Premium" petrol isn't really a necessity, but as the car is already so economical, to me that extra £5 (plus the accompanying delusions) in whole, only equated to less than 1 gallon of Supermarket "home Brew" - or in another sense, perhaps dragging back the overall mpg to the mid 50's, rather than the mid 60's, but the car felt soooooooo much better for it.

 

An illusion, or simply self-delusion?  

[Rooted]

You must be buying very expensive BP Super Unleaded 97 ron or you have a very big fuel tank.

 

Sainsburys Super Unleaded 97 will cost much less than £5 extra a tank, or better still Tesco Momentum 99 which is 5 pence a litre more expensive than their 95 ron so £2.25 or so more expensive for 45 litres.

[Michaelski]

Hi Awayoffski,

It was a bog-standard BP Station, & from memory, it was around £1.32 per litre, around 20p more than the usual Morrison's Home Brew - so shooting in some 27 litres (I'd run it down unusually low for the occasion), I reckon that I coughed up an additional £5+.    An unnecessary extravagance perhaps, but as I said, the car did seem to run considerably better.  Also, it would cost me around 1/2 gall to do the return journey to the nearest Sainsbury's, & I wouldn't even know where to find a Tesco Station, so being idle (albeit highly convenient for me) was a price that I was prepared to pay. 

 

Not necessarily intending to do this every time I need petrol (although in the greater scheme of things, it's only around the cost of a coffee for SWMBO & I each month), so I just might.        You pays yer money, & you takes yer choice!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rooted]

Maybe worth trying Tesco 99 then if you are near one or even 99 ron from Royal Dutch Shell for the same as you are paying BP for 97 ron.

[Michaelski]

Looking through Google (something that I could have done previously, if it was for the fact that I was too idle), I have located a Tesco Station just a little way away, so when I next need to top up, I'll give their 99 RON a whirl.

So thanks for the Heads Up, Awayoffski.

[Michaelski]

Hi Awayoffski,

 

Disappointed (if not to say somewhat ****ed off).   I DID eventually find a Tesco Station, & booled down there earlier this week.  After doing several laps of honour of their car park (it was grid-locked with shoppers) I eventually found out that THERE WAS NO filling station there - despite it saying that there was, on their web page.   So, it was back to BP Supreme (+ a further £5) for me.   Mebbe will give Sainsbury's a whirl, although, I don't like to get below 3/4 of the tank before I top up, so going the some-20 mile round trip to Sainsbury's will have to coincide with the need to fill it up.   Anyway, & even at 60 mpg, a 20 mile round trip is gunna cost me around a couple of quid (& around one hour of my time), so I may as well just buy the local BP brew & look happy/unhappy. 

[Rooted]

You certainly would.

No Shell filling stations near for some lovely 99ron @ maybe the same price as BP's 97?

http://petrolprices.com 

[Michaelski]

Hi Awayoffski,

Have just done a bit of (independent) research on BP Supreme petrol.  Of course, it could just be propaganda, but they state that the RON is guaranteed to be between 98-100, and this WAS NOT a BP webpage.   Mind you, one is certainly paying fairly heavily for the privilege, but the site also said that there was (unlike Tesco's Super unleaded) no ethanol in it.  I gather (rightly or wrongly) that Tesco basically whops up their RON by lacing the fuel with Ethanol - which again, from my enquiries, is a cheap system of upping the RON, but definitely NOT a beneficial additive for modern engines.

I still reckon that fuel from the "biggies" have got to advantages over using the Supermarkets' cheap Home Brew.  To cement this in my mind even more firmly, when SWMBO & I shopped at Morrisons yesterday, we were also given a voucher that entitled us to a discount of 5p per litre off Morrisons' already cheap-as-chips unleaded.    Either it's large a very loss leader, or they're still making a hefty profit?   

But just who DO you believe?

[Rooted]

What you read could not have been about BP Super Unleaded in the UK now because it is 97 ron. (minimum)

This in wiki is not perfect for being accurate, but pretty so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating 

 

PS. 

Some of us would run more ethanol if we could. Suitable engines & all that jazz.

Greenergy produces Tesco Momentum 99, and lots of ESSO Filling stations get fuel Greenergy produces, 

and other Independents.

http://petrolprices.com/green-fuels.html 

http://greenergy.com/uk/independent 

 

If what they are selling is 98 octane (minimum) it would say so.

Edited 26 May, 2017 by Awayoffski

[Michaelski]

Hi Awayoffski,

 

Finally managed (at the expense of a 10 mile round trip) to bool into a Tesco F/S & filled up with Tesco Momentum??? (the pump handle was scratched to buggery & beyond, so not 100% sure of the name).  I think ("think" being the operative word) that it was £1.18 per litre, but in the heat of the moment (the forecourt was gridlocked with cars belonging to ladies, who were also hitting the cash dispensers at the same time, and leaving their cars at the Pumps), I didn't really take too much notice.   However, from some searches that I made, it does seem to be around 99 RON, so we'll see what we shall see.   Better than shelling out well north of £1.30 for BP's Super, & whilst the traffic to Tesco was Pants, job's now done.

Thanks for the Heads Up.

[Citigouk]

I think the super/nitro/turbo/ultimate/premium (delete as appropriate  ) higher RON fuels is confusing in the UK.... it's something which should be standardised (IMHO) to make it easier to compare pricing and understand the potential of making the informed decision of higher priced fuel.

 

So at the moment a driver could buy 97,98 & 99 RON as all classed as premium product over the 95RON. What's not understood is that 97RON and 99RON 

What is badly explained by car dealers and manufacturers is the differing the RONs will have on your actual car..... this obviously all dependant if the ECU and ignition timing can understand and make use of the more powerful fuel.

 

 

In Germany things are very transparent there are greater unleaded RON choices and thus value for monies (or is that euros)  

 

 

 

[Michaelski]

Hi Citigouk,

Yeah well, I spent mega time in Germany, & my experience was that if one strayed even just a little off the "guidelines", one was immediately sent off to fight on the Russian Front.   That apart, the Germans as a Race, do tend to be a highly-disciplined nation, & like everything to be "just so".   Not a bad thing IMHO, but indeed, indeedy, it would be very useful if there was more information out there in the UK.  And I've found that petrol (at least unleaded) is quite noticeably more expensive in places like France & Germany - Diesel tends to be considerably cheaper, which is conceivably why just so many motorists (almost exclusively so in Belgium) belt around in Diesels.    

 

I have to say, that for the first 18 months' of the cars life, I used to whop in the bog-standard Supermarket Home Brew, & the car seemed to run perfectly well.   It was only in the past few months that I decided to give it a "little treat" & shovelled in the Super 97+ RON variety.   But having done that, it did seem to me that the car adjusted perfectly (in fact more than perfectly) well, & seemed to be much smoother: much more eager, & highly appreciative of the extra RON - perhaps a fallacy, perhaps not, but the ECU does seem to be capable of dealing with anything more than the basic 95?

 

And as I've said before, it all (at least to me) simply comes down to the additional costs involved being no more than a coffee for the Old Memsahib & I once per month - the car is so frugal that filling up once per, is all that is necessary for me.   When we go on a more-than-usual longish run (mebbee once every 2 months) I'll cough up the extra Fiver for the return trip, without being too perturbed.

 

Ah, self-delusion is a wonderful thing!

Edited 3 June, 2017 by Michaelski

[Miller73]

I find it hard to believe that any car with a tiny 60bhp engine would benefit in terms of either performance or economy from 97/99 Ron petrol......

[Michaelski]

Hi Miller73,

Well, as I said, it may be all truly delusional, but that's my genuine belief.   To my mind, the car certainly runs smoother & is more responsive & "eager" & seems to benefited from an improved mpg.   But as I traditionally achieve the very high 50's/very low 60's in day-to-day running around, & well North of 70 on a decent run, it's rather hard to notice any marked economy.

& perhaps as the car is actually the 75 bhp, rather than the 60, it just "may" make a slight difference.    

If not, well at least leave a geriatric old dropout with some illusions - at our advanced age, we're not in the happy position of having all that many left to us.  

[Citigouk]

3 hours ago, Michaelski said:

 

I have to say, that for the first 18 months' of the cars life, I used to whop in the bog-standard Supermarket Home Brew, & the car seemed to run perfectly well.   It was only in the past few months that I decided to give it a "little treat" & shovelled in the Super 97+ RON variety.   But having done that, it did seem to me that the car adjusted perfectly (in fact more than perfectly) well, & seemed to be much smoother: much more eager, & highly appreciative of the extra RON - perhaps a fallacy, perhaps not, but the ECU does seem to be capable of dealing with anything more than the basic 95?

 

I struggle to see how you could be experiencing such am improvement on the one fill up...... maybe after 3 fills   ..... maybe the citigo timing on the ignition allows for the increased RON.... nothing really confirmed in the owners book

 

 

[Michaelski]

Not just one  fill-up, Citigouk, I've been filling up with the "Super" on the past 4 occasions, so whatever "may" have been left of the residual dregs of the Morrisons' own Home Brew, have long since gone.    And as far as the ECU coping is concerned, it's been running like a Swiss Watch or conceivably a Chinese Watch since the first time I whopped in some of the Premier Cru de la Cru, in late March.

 

If you want to believe it, then do so - the only person who could possibly be disappointed, is yourself!!!

And as I keep stressing, the price difference between bog-standard Supermarket Home Brew & 97-99 RON, is only a Fiver per month - and what's that in the greater scheme of things?

[ronime]

6 hours ago, Citigouk said:

 

I struggle to see how you could be experiencing such am improvement on the one fill up...... maybe after 3 fills   ..... maybe the citigo timing on the ignition allows for the increased RON.... nothing really confirmed in the owners book

 

 

 

Petrol engined cars have had knock sensors and adaptive ignition systems for years now. The ECU will constantly attempt to optimise the ignition timing so will certainly adapt itself after one fill up.

 

I am surprised that you can tell the difference on a 75PS normally aspirated engine though. Turbocharged cars respond well to ignition timing optimisation and super unleaded can be worth about 10hp in a 200hp 2 litre turbocharged engine.

[Rooted]

N/A Motorbike and Kart engines have been telling the difference when running higher octane fuel for decades now.

A 1.0 na VW engine might not be so high revving but the proof is in the pudding.

 

My 1.0 Toyota iQ vvt-i CVT loved Super Unleaded, 97 or 99,

my 1.1 16v Kia Picanto auto was no different even if i put 102 ron in it.

 

As for Super Unleaded being worth 10hp in a 2 litre turbocharger engine, 

99 ron can be worth 10hp more in a 1,390cc Twincharged engine.

1.4 TSI Twincharged engine in most sprints and hillclimbs get put in the same class as 2.0 Turbos.

Edited 4 June, 2017 by Awayoffski

[leckman]

It does say on page 107 of the owners manual 'the use of petrol with a higher octane number than 95 RON can lead to an increase in power and reduction in fuel consumption'.

[ronime]

1 hour ago, Awayoffski said:

As for Super Unleaded being worth 10hp in a 2 litre turbocharger engine, 

99 ron can be worth 10hp more in a 1,390cc Twincharged engine.

 

That does not surprise me. The higher the boost pressure the more critical ignition timing becomes and consequently fuels with greater anti-knock properties are going to be more beneficial.

 

I would expect to see more benefit in absolute terms from higher RON fuel in a Lancer Evo FQ400 than I would in a 122PS Golf 1.4TSI

[Rooted]

Indeed you might but then if the percentage increase of max hp / Nm torque is similar then that is one thing.

If it is just less emissions with a more efficient running engine and a slight economy improvement when not using Max hp / torque then the 5 pence a litre extra might be worth it with non performance engines just doing the commuter run or longer journey at UK NSL's.

Edited 4 June, 2017 by Awayoffski

[Michaelski]

Hmmm, seemed to have opened a real contentious can of worms here - but having read the Posts, certainly "leckman" (& to a lesser degree, ronime, as it's just my own impression that the car runs better) seem to have made valid points.   Or again, is it just wishful thinking on my part?

Whatever, as it is my considered opinion is that the car seems to respond better to a drop of the "good stuff" & I'll continue to whop it in  - a £5 financial monthly penalty notwithstanding.

 

I doubt whether anyone is going to proffer the definitive answer here, as there seems to be so many differing schools of thought, that one can only do one's own research: listen to the informed (or the not so-informed, on occasions) opinions, and then vote with your wallet.

But I'll continue to go down the 99 RON route (& more power to my elbow)!

Edited 4 June, 2017 by Michaelski

[Michaelski]

And a belated to all - I should add that I never go anywhere near "red lining" my little Tonka Toy  - I have an on-board speed limiter (aka as SWMBO) who becomes quite vociferous & querulous when approaching even 4000 revs.   Possibly saves me from mobile cash machines (speed partnership radar vans) lining their pockets at my expense? 

[ronime]

3 hours ago, Michaelski said:

And a belated to all - I should add that I never go anywhere near "red lining" my little Tonka Toy  - I have an on-board speed limiter (aka as SWMBO) who becomes quite vociferous & querulous when approaching even 4000 revs.   Possibly saves me from mobile cash machines (speed partnership radar vans) lining their pockets at my expense? 

 

Do you ever exceed 4,000rpm? If not you are not getting the best out of your 75PS engine. The torque and power curves of the 60PS and 75PS engines are pretty much identical up to 4,000rpm.