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Warning on Spark Plugs 1.4 TSI CAVE VRS, (& CTHE)'check the spark plugs!'


Rooted

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I have see now a good few standard Twinchargers with Plugs burning out.

(& seen a good few tuned 1.4TSI/TFSI that had plugs going, that can be expected).

 

But today on a standard car with under 25,000 miles done and 3 Skoda Services i have seen the worst.

It is a non oil burner, and run on 99 ron fuel only.

 

Nothing showing on the diagnostic & no 'Engine Warning light' or EPC light,

But i felt a misfire and it was just a bit down on power.

 

So i took the plugs out, 1st, 2nd and 3rd plug removed and i thought these are perfectly fine.

Thankfully i removed the 4th, 

or that engine could have been toast.

 

Do not trust to the Skoda Service schedule and 40,000 miles before changing the plugs on the TSI CAVE.

I would say have them changed at the 2 year/20,000 mile service.

Do not even wait till the 3 year/30,000 mile service.

 

You or the Technician might feel nothing and no Error Codes of feeling of misfire, but you could be one hard acceleration from ruining your engine.

 

Plugs i fitted are 'Denso Iridium' @ about £16 each including VAT, 'SKJ20CR-A8#4' (3371#4)

But check yourself what is required, do not believe me.

This is on a CAVE 2010-2012, not a CTHE.

 

worth it to use the Denso plugs i believe on a standard engine compared to the ones VW use at around £12. 

 

george

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Sorry George (and it's easily done on a Monday), but I'm confused - was plug No4 knackered?  Or do the pics show the 3rd plug all shiny and bright?

 

Good advice to check more closely though - seems that folks with any car should be doing more home maintenance to look after their engines, rather than just chucking it in for the scheduled maintenance.

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Another Warning.

If removing the Coils and Plugs, you might as well put in the New Replacements plugs, not stick back in the ones that the car came with.

& if doing it DIY,

do not just check 1 plug and think thats fine, or just 2, or even 3 plugs and think they are fine, get all 4 out, to be sure.

 

Sorry,

that in that picture is, one good plug, one burnt out plug (gubbed) & 1 brand new Denso Plug.

(i thought that was obvious, but we all know what thought did)

 

I will take a picture of all 4 that came out.

(I will not suggest which plug is the one that burns out, as the Skoda Technicians should know.)

My belief is it is the cylinder that gets the biggest blast from the Charger.

 

george

 

4 plugs removed from a Twincarger, 1.4 TSI CAVE S-A, engine showing no Errors, but slight misfire only, hardly detectable.

But doing poor MPG which might be the only clue to a plug on its way out.

Especially when a 1.4 TSI is still 15,000 miles below the Skoda Schedule for replacing Spark Plugs

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They should indeed.

Which is why i am posting the warning,

just on this forum in the past couple of weeks there have been members with Twinchargers with low milages and plugs not looking like yours do.

 

Not all cars necessarily have the same plugs fitted as yours.

In 2009/2010 there was a problem with VW/Skoda having used the wrong plugs,

then some CAVE cars from then got a ECU Update, but Spark plugs were not always checked or changed.

Some 2010 cars may be running 3 years + old plugs  (well under 40,000 miles & should be fine)

that were in there before the ECU got an Up-Date,

some early cars may still have never had a Up-Date of the ECU.

The first service was not having a Diagnostic done at 1 year/10,000 mile Minor Services, only at the Major Service,

You can not even take for granted that was done.

 

In the past 18 months there have been several members with plugs failing badly and causing bigger problems.

Sometimes you get the Yellow Emission Warning Light or EPC, and that can show a mis-fire.

The thing to think on is where there is no warning.

The member in Ayrshire was prompted to check his Plugs because economy was so poor in a vehicle he had just bought, 

He has not posted a pic of the plugs but he said they were at the end of their life,

 

Fuel being used and type of driving being done might well be effecting the life expectancy of plugs, even in a good engine.

Up to owners if they bother or go to the expense of getting plugs changed early or not.

If getting poor economy then maybe worth checking the plugs.

 

Another few hundred miles on the burnt out plug in the picture, and that would have been a car needing Skoda Assist called out.

 

george

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Did the mapper not check the plugs and change them before doing it, then running the car on the Dyno ?

I would take advice from them on which to use.

 

george

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Now there's timing, I'm just about to order some new plugs.

Was there ever a consensus on which are best, taking into account my car as been mapped.

Was thinking of ordering NGK BKR8's

Its the bkr7s you want, unless you plan to mod the car a fair bit them might be worth going for 8s

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I didn't explicitly ask George,

They may well have checked as they looked to give the car a check over which took some time before doing the stock runs on the dyno, then the stock dyno itself showed the car to be running well and no faults seen.

The car is now due it's 40k service which will be carried out by a friend at a local garage, I am ordering in the plugs, engine oil, brake fluid etc that I would like using is all.

Maybe at the back of my mind I knew this was due and the car was getting new plugs, maybe it was just careless not to check with Awesome GTI if they had looked at the plugs. I believe generally APR and Revo recommend new plugs

Since the map the car hasn't had it's neck wrung and for a good few days was in Manchester Airport Multistorey car park whilst I was out of the country.

So going back to my question, besides asking Awesome, which I will, do you have any thoughts on which plugs to order? Always nice to canvas opinion on these things.

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Sorry, its a waterproof rough tough & cheap camera minus flash, and a hopeless photographer.

 

Re Plugs, I used with stage 1, BKR 8EIX & am now using BKR 7EIX  *NGK 2667*

 

Also on a re-mapped Twincharger i had A1 Coils & was using the plugs to suit which are  NGK, PZFR 8EG

 

george

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George,anything out of the ordinary involved in removing the plugs?

I assume the flimsy plastic top engine cover just lifts off,and are there coil packs to remove to get at the plugs?

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Got it - top one is burnt out - the spark curve bit (that's a technical term, I'm an engineer, just not a Car engineer - you'll be glad to hear!!) has gawn.

 

Of interest, do Skoda recommend a particular fuel and could using 99RON give too much BANG and cause the plug to burn like that?

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Thanks for the knowledge George.

Just spoke to Awesome, they didn't check the plugs, they road test and run diagnostics looking for recorded misfires during prep but as no issues seen over VCDS they weren't inspected.

Their recommendation was to fit new OEM spec plugs and shorten the service interval on them. They say that they have seen more issues with people uprating the plugs. Which was interesting.

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Given these problems with spark plugs might we conclude that to use ordinary fuel is a risk not worth taking?

...but I have always used super anyway.

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Got it - top one is burnt out - the spark curve bit (that's a technical term, I'm an engineer, just not a Car engineer - you'll be glad to hear!!) has gawn.

 

Of interest, do Skoda recommend a particular fuel and could using 99RON give too much BANG and cause the plug to burn like that?

Opposite I would have thought ...use of low octane fuel can cause localised overheating through pinking.
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You need to remove the Ignition Coils.

That needs a tool, which you can buy, or make.  So that will be this. (sorry for poor picture of welding wire.)

 

Then get the Plugs slackened off, then a piece of rubber pipe is very good to get the spark plugs out.

Proper tools are available.

 

The 1.4 TSI Twincharger is Recommended 98 ron and minimum 95 ron,

I really would not run 95 ron, it does not work out economically beneficial,

or give the performance that the engine can easily achieve while still giving economy.

 

(I use to think sometimes Sainsburys Super Unleaded 97 ron was OK,

but after an experience last week with using that, they are a no no now with me for fueling up.)

 

george

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Re Test Run and Diagnostics.

 

Thats what prompted my warning.

I ran Full Diagnostics, nothing.    nowt, not a hint.  So if just getting done on a standard car, do not expect an error to show.

Fine if there is, but not guaranteed,

 

and the road test was really showing little,  you need to know exactly how the car should feel,

and unless you get a hic up or loss of power, you are not necessarily going to feel anything

it can be hard to feel a misfire on a Twincharger that will really have to doing well above National Speed limits & pulling hard to even pick up on unless there is an Engine warning light.

 

The poor MPG being achieved was the only real give away.

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I saw that George, I would have felt better if Awesome had done a visual check. You live and you learn.

When we pull my four out I'll post up a picture

I'm currently getting better economy out of my car mapped than previously so hard to use that as a benchmark and likewise it drives better now than pre-map even at day to day pootling around speeds.

Hopefully a full service with plugs and things will stay that way

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Its very difficult to see from the fuzzy pictures whether the electrode has burned way or broken off and the end subsequently burnt.

I suspect it must have broken off. Even if they were wrong heat range, that should not happen.

This is a quality issue that NGK and/or Skoda/VW are responsible for and should be notified.

As it only happened on one plug out of four, the plug is most likely substandard.

The question is where is the broken bit now? Most likely stuck on the crown or lodged up somewhere in the head. When a similar thing happened to me on a Saab 99 when wrong heat range Champion plugs were fitted by some cheapjack backstreet garage, the tip peppered the crown and head and then tried to leave via the exhaust valve and lodged in the seat. It could really do with an endescope exam to try and locate any missing bit as eventually it will dislodge and either score the wall or try to exit via the exhaust valve, and if in the unlikely event it manages that, hit the turbo on the way out.

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It is a known thing with Skoda/VAG from the other Twinchargers that have had problems.

That Plug  is Burnt,

 'Evils MIyagi's broke off and his engine was toast.

 

VAG/Skoda have dealt with things, they changed the Twinchargers in 2012 to the CTHE engine instead of the CAVE and the CTHE runs a different map.

 

CAVE engine owners maybe need to check where they have not owned a car from new, and can not be sure of Fuel used,

& Service Schedules or the ECU Update being done, 

or even what plugs mat be in the engine.

 

Once you know they are fine, then thats something not to bother about.

 

Like Sharkrider & others, they have used their cars hard & the plugs have been fine.

Its just that there are other threads with Pics of gubbed plugs. (clearer than my pics)

My point of the thread is maybe do not wait for or expect a 'Engine Warning Light', there might not be one until too late.

 

This is a different subject but some will show the Exhaust Emissions light when there is a misfire, which can be just a plug

so the diagnostic & coils will get checked and a plug removed,

be sure to remove and check all 4 plugs.

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/252351-control-system-for-exhaust-warning-light

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Problem is, it's not a simple - open the bonnet and check - thing. It's the special tooling that's needed that makes this unlikely to be common practice such as checking the oil regularly. Out of curiosity, are the needed tools available for sale anywhere? I would be tempted to buy a set and check the condition of mine after this discussion.

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