Vrs 184 revo remap results

[Harvey183]

Getting Michelin Pilot Super Sport fitted may help with wheel spinning/hop. Certainly does in the Lein Cupra 280.

Yeah I had Michelin pilot sports fitted on my 300bhp Mountune Ford Focus ST they were a very good tyre indeed! Soon at stock tyre's are worn out will be putting some sticky rubber on so hopefully it will help.

[Tim1631]

I'm sure the DTUK boxes push out 500nm of tourqe, this seems a little bit down on them. Still looks a decent map.

Is this map switchable? I had a dream science map on my Focus ST then had a map on my RS that had a handheld device to switch in a few minutes

[Hurdy]

But how long for? Is it likely to be the same part on the R as the tdi vrs? Genuine question.

They are eye wateringly expensive to replace and I wouldn't want to run a welded bodge on a daily basis.

I guess only time will tell.

I ran it from February last year till the end of July this year at 500/420. Before that it had a hybrid K04 map running close to 400bhp and 400lbft for over a year. The engine and gearbox still ran perfect when I sold the car on. I also had a nitrous injection Edition30 before that running 380lbft off nitrous and 510lbft with nitrous. The 6 speed DSG boxes are very strong. The internals only vary by the ratios in the diesel from the petrol versions and both are very strong. It is VERY rare that you will see a DSG box fail especially at a stage 1 or 2.

A manual gearbox is a different animal. I have seen a few of those kill the clutch, but not the DMF or box itself. You really do have to be torturing the gearbox at high tuning levels to get close to harming one.

[Hurdy]

I'm interested to know if anyone's knows why it's down on torque from standard or if anyone has had a revo map with better torque figures than me?

It does seem low on torque as REVO quote 345-380lbft on their site for stage 1 VRS 184.

[Harvey183]

It does seem low on torque as REVO quote 345-380lbft on their site for stage 1 VRS 184.

Hurdy if you look at the figures it's down from stock, the remap has given it the right gain it's just down on torque before the re map

[Hurdy]

Hurdy if you look at the figures it's down from stock, the remap has given it the right gain it's just down on torque before the re map

Probably just a low reading dyno Harvey. Which would also mean that on another more "complimentary" dyno you may have seen more power and torque before and after.

[Harvey183]

Probably just a low reading dyno Harvey. Which would also mean that on another more "complimentary" dyno you may have seen more power and torque before and after.

I'll have to try it on another dyno!

[Orville]

I have read up on the remap vs tuning box debate for Gen3 TSI engines, and both have their pro's and cons.

Remaps can fine-tune all engine management parameters (fuel, ignition, boost maps & more). Programmed correctly they can extract huge performance gains whilst operating within safety margins. APR, Revo and others advertise around 320bhp / 370lb/ft from a base stage 1 map. These are largely achieved by running a sustained 23-25 PSI boost map, up 8-10 PSI from stock. Remaps can trigger the TD1 flag which makes them detectable to dealers.

Tuning boxes access and modify fewer parameters, so must work within wider safety margins and rely upon the engines built-in protection mechanisms. Typically these boxes will run 19-20 PSI max boost, up 4-5 PSI from stock. Most seem good for 285bhp / 330lb/ft. This is about 10% down on a good remap, but you can install, tweak & remove it yourself. There also remains a sizeable resale value should you decide to part company with it or sell the car, plus use is untraceable once removed.

Reliability
Checking the Golf forums reveals the most common failure for GTI 7 (Gen3 TSI) engines to be turbo failure. Turbos can fail on stock cars, but tuning seems to significantly increase the risk. APR tunes seem most affected, but this is probably because they are the most widely used (and perhaps use the highest boost maps). It is very difficult to find cases of Gen3 tuning-box failures, even though their use is widespread. I attribute this to them running lower boost, and thus not stressing the weakest component as much. Too high boost held for extended periods is what accelerates turbo death. Personally, I would choose a high quality box (DTUK or JB1) over a high-power remap for current TSI engines. A great alternative could be a low-boost remap, which provides similar or just a smidgen more power than a tuning box.

 

Order of Power / boost for TSI engines - low to high

Tuning box (Shark/DTUK/JB1)

APR Low Torque Map

Revo

APR Map (highest reported turbo failures)

Edited 1 September, 2015 by Orville

[nrvous]

I have read up on the remap vs tuning box debate for Gen3 TSI engines, and both have their pro's and cons.

Remaps can fine-tune all engine management parameters (fuel, ignition, boost maps & more). Programmed correctly they can extract huge performance gains whilst operating within safety margins. APR, Revo and others advertise around 320bhp / 370lb/ft from a base stage 1 map. These are largely achieved by running a sustained 23-25 PSI boost map, up 8-10 PSI from stock. Remaps can trigger the TD1 flag which makes them detectable to dealers.

Tuning boxes access and modify fewer parameters, so must work within wider safety margins and rely upon the engines built-in protection mechanisms. Typically these boxes will run 19-20 PSI max boost, up 4-5 PSI from stock. Most seem good for 285bhp / 330lb/ft. This is about 10% down on a good remap, but you can install, tweak & remove it yourself. There also remains a sizeable resale value should you decide to part company with it or sell the car, plus use is untraceable once removed.

Reliability

Checking the Golf forums reveals the most common failure for GTI 7 (Gen3 TSI) engines to be turbo failure. Turbos can fail on stock cars, but tuning seems to significantly increase the risk. APR tunes seem most affected, but this is probably because they are the most widely used (and perhaps use the highest boost maps). It is very difficult to find cases of Gen3 tuning-box failures, even though their use is widespread. I attribute this to them running lower boost, and thus not stressing the weakest component as much. Too high boost held for extended periods is what accelerates turbo death. Personally, I would choose a high quality box (DTUK or JB1) over a high-power remap for current TSI engines. A great alternative could be a low-boost remap, which provides similar or just a smidgen more power than a tuning box.

 

Order of Power / boost for TSI engines - low to high

Tuning box (Shark/DTUK/JB1)

APR Low Torque Map

Revo

APR Map (highest reported turbo failures)

 

What about Gen3 TDI engines, same principles?

[Orville]

What about Gen3 TDI engines, same principles?

Much of the online knowledge for Gen3 tuning originates from the US where the mod community is extensive and petrol is predominant. There are very few reports of Gen3 diesel failures, so my guess is that the turbo and internals are at least as robust as petrol counterparts. With tuning-boxes being far easier to install on the diesels, it seems these are (currently) more popular than remaps. Clearly a good remap will be safer than a good tuning-box when outputting the same power levels,

[Tim1631]

I have read up on the remap vs tuning box debate for Gen3 TSI engines, and both have their pro's and cons.

Remaps can fine-tune all engine management parameters (fuel, ignition, boost maps & more). Programmed correctly they can extract huge performance gains whilst operating within safety margins. APR, Revo and others advertise around 320bhp / 370lb/ft from a base stage 1 map. These are largely achieved by running a sustained 23-25 PSI boost map, up 8-10 PSI from stock. Remaps can trigger the TD1 flag which makes them detectable to dealers.

Tuning boxes access and modify fewer parameters, so must work within wider safety margins and rely upon the engines built-in protection mechanisms. Typically these boxes will run 19-20 PSI max boost, up 4-5 PSI from stock. Most seem good for 285bhp / 330lb/ft. This is about 10% down on a good remap, but you can install, tweak & remove it yourself. There also remains a sizeable resale value should you decide to part company with it or sell the car, plus use is untraceable once removed.Reliability

Checking the Golf forums reveals the most common failure for GTI 7 (Gen3 TSI) engines to be turbo failure. Turbos can fail on stock cars, but tuning seems to significantly increase the risk. APR tunes seem most affected, but this is probably because they are the most widely used (and perhaps use the highest boost maps). It is very difficult to find cases of Gen3 tuning-box failures, even though their use is widespread. I attribute this to them running lower boost, and thus not stressing the weakest component as much. Too high boost held for extended periods is what accelerates turbo death. Personally, I would choose a high quality box (DTUK or JB1) over a high-power remap for current TSI engines. A great alternative could be a low-boost remap, which provides similar or just a smidgen more power than a tuning box.

 

Order of Power / boost for TSI engines - low to high

Tuning box (Shark/DTUK/JB1)

APR Low Torque Map

Revo

APR Map (highest reported turbo failures)

So if you get a full on remap before this the engine is running boost at 8-10 PSI but if your planning on getting a tuining box your engine is only running at 4-5 PSI. Won't the engine before any remap or box be the same PSI?

[V6Jules]

So if you get a full on remap before this the engine is running boost at 8-10 PSI but if your planning on getting a tuining box your engine is only running at 4-5 PSI. Won't the engine before any remap or box be the same PSI?

He is stating that a remap might increase boost 8-10psi where as a tuning box might only increase boost by 4-5psi

[M12MKD]

Reading online, most failures in the VAG range are in the US. Now this makes me think two things.

 

1) The cars are maybe put together badly in the US

 

2) Those yanks are not car friendly.

 

Starting to think maybe I should have stuck to the more robust diesel engine!! lol

[Orville]

For TSI engines:-

*Stock boost pressure is 14-15 PSI (above atmospheric pressure)

*Tuning boxes tend to push this to 19-20 PSI. This is >30% over stock turbo output.

*Some remaps sustain 24-25 PSI. This is >60% over stock. 

 

Atmospheric pressure is typically 14.7 PSI at sea level, so combined pressures within the engine will be around:-

*Stock 29 PSI

*Tuning Box 34 PSI (+17%)

*Strong Remap 39 PSI (+34%)

 

The percentages above provide a very rough comparison to performance gains shown within published Dyno runs. Other factors such as fueling and ignition timing are involved, but boost has by far the largest impact on performance. That's why tuned turbo-engined cars benefit far more from a tune than normally aspirated cars.

 

Clearly, running the turbo at stock is safest (especially when within warranty which is otherwise voided). This safety margin erodes with additional load. Blades can warp or fracture, bearings fail, and oil can overheat when pushed too hard. As far as I am aware oil temperatures are not monitored within the turbo itself.

 

Similar arguments apply for diesel, where I strongly suspect the turbos will also be the weakest links. Turbo's must work ~50% above stock to provide ~20-25% more usable power. Other components are not pushed as hard as the turbo in percentage terms.

 

The above is of course a gross simplification of what really happens under the bonnet, but the basics hold true.

 

During the 1980's F1 turbo's ran 70+ PSI, and regularly went pop.

Edited 2 September, 2015 by Orville

[flybynite]

During the 1980s I used to think we were "out there" getting 20psi out of a 12psi car using a fish tank bleed valve on the waste gate and water injection to stop the detonation (cars didn't often have intercoolers in 1982!) how things have changed!

[neil_f]

[quote name="Orville" post="4366789" timestamp="1441187304"

Similar arguments apply for diesel, where I strongly suspect the turbos will also be the weakest links. Turbo's must work ~50% above stock to provide ~20-25% more usable power. Other components are not pushed as hard as the turbo in percentage terms.

Not entirely true as you can't increase the boost pressure to a similar extent as you would on a petrol due to the compression ratio. Last diesel remap I had increased boost pressure by 2-3psi. My mk2 tsi covered over 60k miles remapped with no issues. Yes it runs far higher boost but on road driving you rarely hold it at maximum boost for any great length of time.

[pipsyp]

Reading online, most failures in the VAG range are in the US. Now this makes me think two things.

1) The cars are maybe put together badly in the US

2) Those yanks are not car friendly.

Starting to think maybe I should have stuck to the more robust diesel engine!! lol

The NA and Canadian Mk7 Golfs are made in Mexico with I believe the exception of the R that is still made in Wolfsberg....I suggested that perhaps the Mexican cars arent quite so well put together on the GolfMk7 forum...caused a bit f a furore with our friends over the pond :-)

[M12MKD]

The NA and Canadian Mk7 Golfs are made in Mexico with I believe the exception of the R that is still made in Wolfsberg....I suggested that perhaps the Mexican cars arent quite so well put together on the GolfMk7 forum...caused a bit f a furore with our friends over the pond :-)

 

I made the assumption that they are built in the US (my bad), but my point was that they are not made in Germany. OT slightly but MBenz also have reliability issues with the C Class saloon which is not built in Germany.

 

Thanks for the info though

 

But you get my point I was trying to make, there doesn't seem to be the same failure in Europe (although again I could be wrong).

[Orville]

There is a difference between where cars are assembled and where the component parts are made. All mechanical components will be produced to a standard. Engines, gearboxes, turbos etc will be identical. For example, the part numbers for US Golf turbos are the same as for EU Golf's and Octavia's. Some likely reasons why there are more failure reports within the U.S. could be due to it being a much bigger market, having a larger and well developed mod community (Americans don't just shoot each other to get their kicks), and a hotter climate (within many States). They also have a lot more space to give their cars some welly. Golf's are very popular street racing cars over there, and many young Americans love to mod their cars. Mods increase fatality rates.

In purely mathematical terms, bigger market + higher mod ratio = more reported failures.

[Orville]

Not entirely true as you can't increase the boost pressure to a similar extent as you would on a petrol due to the compression ratio. Last diesel remap I had increased boost pressure by 2-3psi. My mk2 tsi covered over 60k miles remapped with no issues. Yes it runs far higher boost but on road driving you rarely hold it at maximum boost for any great length of time.

I am unsure what boost remapped TDI/184's run, but at stock they run significantly higher than a TSI engine. The 184 appears to run at ~18 PSI stock vs ~15 PSI for the petrol.

[neil_f]

I am unsure what boost remapped TDI/184's run, but at stock they run significantly higher than a TSI engine. The 184 appears to run at ~18 PSI stock vs ~15 PSI for the petrol.

Correct the diesels usually run significantly more boost standard than a petrol. My point was when remapping a diesel boost pressure is barely changed in comparison to a petrol therefore the turbo is not really put under any more stress.

[pipsyp]

Correct the diesels usually run significantly more boost standard than a petrol. My point was when remapping a diesel boost pressure is barely changed in comparison to a petrol therefore the turbo is not really put under any more stress.

Indeed I think primarily the fuel rail pressure is increased on a diesel to increase power....thats why these fuel rail only tuning boxes still see v good gains and not much less than the 2 way systems now offered (fuel + boost).

[marinkol]

Correct the diesels usually run significantly more boost standard than a petrol. My point was when remapping a diesel boost pressure is barely changed in comparison to a petrol therefore the turbo is not really put under any more stress.

 

I can confirm this with comments from my Revo dealer. Not one diesel ever returned to him with turbo problems.

 

BTW, I have also upgraded my vRS TDI from version 1.0 REVO map to 2.0 REVO map (for free) and difference is very noticable, so everyone who revoed TDI before 06/2015 should upgrade.

 

There is noticable difference in 3. gear when compered to old map.

[Diango]

Bah, mine is under a lease agreement (company car) and I don't want any issues, but I so wánt this remap.

At the start the car felt so fast but I'm used to the power now and I want more :-).

[Hurdy]

Well, I mapped my 184 Leon with REVO yesterday and it does make a decent amount of extra grunt. Happy now.