VW UK Action plan for EA 189 EU5 engines

[Sagalout]

One second is a big deal when talking about acceleration time. Same goes for the mileage, to a lesser extend.

The newer of the vehicles only lost 0.1 second. I doubt you would even notice unless someone told you.

[Jimrod]

Looks like it's an official recall now, no deciding whether or not you want it done.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34536573

[langers2k]

Looks like it's an official recall now, no deciding whether or not you want it done.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34536573

 

Not quite, that only applies to the 2.4m cars in Germany rather than all affected cars.

[eyegr]

The newer of the vehicles only lost 0.1 second. I doubt you would even notice unless someone told you.

Agreed, but "less than a second" could also mean 0.9 seconds, which would be considerably noticeable.

[Jimrod]

Not quite, that only applies to the 2.4m cars in Germany rather than all affected cars.

 

That was yesterday, this was the update at the top of that story:

 

Volkswagen has said it will recall 8.5 million cars in Europe as a result of the diesel emissions scandal.

Edited 15 October, 2015 by Jimrod

[Sagalout]

The actual figures in the video, as opposed to journo summary of less than one second are:

2011 model from 9.9 to 10.5 and mpg from 50 to 46

2015 model from 9.1 to 9.2 and mpg from 53 to 50

 

Lets, for the sake of discussion, assume these sort of results translate across the ranges. I can see a strong legal argument that these are not significant differences and would be within the variable results that apply to any published performance figures. It is also easy to demonstrate that most people wouldn't notice either of those accelaration differences. Would a petrol head really notice the 0.1 second difference unless track racing!

 

As to fuel consumption. On a 10k annual mileage the difference in costs is 17 gallons of diesel a year for the 2011 model and 11.5 gallons a year on the 2015 model.

 

This sort of data gives an interesting position for VW when considering claims for loss dont you think? i do realise there may be other aspects here with regard to power output/ misrepresentation etc but I am just trying to get a sense of proportion going here.

 

Yeah VAG were very stupid for getting into this situation but some of the rhetoric floating around is very strange. Social outrage is usually exponentially greater than the final reality is all I would say. Also all branches of the law in the US are very different from the UK and Europe. The final settlements may well be very different on this side of the pond. There should be no doubt that VAG will have the very best legal eagles working for them in this situation.

 

Pete

[Jimrod]

Just as an update to my earlier post: It's now been announced on BBC Radio 5 Live that it will be an official recall in the UK, failure to have the work done will invalidate your warranty, however should you choose not to opt in your car would still pass an MOT as usual.

Edited 15 October, 2015 by Jimrod

[gwu]

The actual figures in the video, as opposed to journo summary of less than one second are:

2011 model from 9.9 to 10.5 and mpg from 50 to 46

2015 model from 9.1 to 9.2 and mpg from 53 to 50

 

Lets, for the sake of discussion, assume these sort of results translate across the ranges. I can see a strong legal argument that these are not significant differences and would be within the variable results that apply to any published performance figures. It is also easy to demonstrate that most people wouldn't notice either of those accelaration differences. Would a petrol head really notice the 0.1 second difference unless track racing!

 

As to fuel consumption. On a 10k annual mileage the difference in costs is 17 gallons of diesel a year for the 2011 model and 11.5 gallons a year on the 2015 model.

 

This sort of data gives an interesting position for VW when considering claims for loss dont you think? i do realise there may be other aspects here with regard to power output/ misrepresentation etc but I am just trying to get a sense of proportion going here.

 

Yeah VAG were very stupid for getting into this situation but some of the rhetoric floating around is very strange. Social outrage is usually exponentially greater than the final reality is all I would say. Also all branches of the law in the US are very different from the UK and Europe. The final settlements may well be very different on this side of the pond. There should be no doubt that VAG will have the very best legal eagles working for them in this situation.

 

Pete

If those VW's eagles win the battle, it would be seen as an arrogant mistreatment of their customers (a lot of them in this case) like what Audi did in the 70s in the USA. That resulted in not many Audi cars on the roads in the USA during the 80s. As for Skoda, all those old jokes from the 70s and 80s will come back.

[WaveyDavey]

Just as an update to my earlier post: It's now been announced on BBC Radio 5 Live that it will be an official recall in the UK, failure to have the work done will invalidate your warranty, however should you choose not to opt in your car would still pass an MOT as usual.

 

 

So once the car is over three years old it becomes a case of decide for myself if i want it doing then?

 

That'll do me. I'll see how it goes for people over the first few months then decide whether or not to take mine in.

[pipmurray]

Exactly my thoughts. My Yeti is three years old next March so I will wait and see how it all pans out before doing anything.

Probably won't even have had the recall notice by then.

Going to see the new BMW X1 on the launch day the 24th of this month. Expensive I expect but at least it will have the

option of a decent bhp petrol engine. Sure they'll offer me a very good trade in, haha!

[Callam]

I was amazed to read that a Which Survey only found 9 out 10 affected owners expected compensation; and also surprised that contributors on this forum are trying to minimalise the effects of the 'Issues' that VW / Skoda refer to...ie only a 0.9 sec reduction in acceleration.     Take this fairly crude analogy for the lawyers to examine:-

 

   I buy a rabbit from a reputable pet shop only to find that the rabbit is not actually a rabbit but a guinea pig with glued-on ears.       I am then notified by the pet shop that my rabbit has 'Issues' but that I can still use it as normal and they will arrange next year for the 'Issues' to be redressed - false ears removed & change of diet.   This will cost me nothing and I will be loaned another pet while they fix my 'rabbit'.     Should I then be happy to only get my guinea pig back?  Could the argument be accepted that it eats and poos like a rabbit and is just as cuddly?

[Jimrod]

Exactly my thoughts. My Yeti is three years old next March so I will wait and see how it all pans out before doing anything.

Probably won't even have had the recall notice by then.

Going to see the new BMW X1 on the launch day the 24th of this month. Expensive I expect but at least it will have the

option of a decent bhp petrol engine. Sure they'll offer me a very good trade in, haha!

 

Well it'll be interesting to hear how you get on - I'm about to sell my 170tdi SEAT Exeo and on their forum two BMW dealers have turned them down flat on P-EX due to the engine issue!  :|

[Hawk13]

The actual figures in the video, as opposed to journo summary of less than one second are:

2011 model from 9.9 to 10.5 and mpg from 50 to 46

2015 model from 9.1 to 9.2 and mpg from 53 to 50

 

 

I'm no tree hugger but I confess that the emissions were a significant consideration for me in reducing my costs - both when I had a bluemotion Golf as a company car and more recently when I bought my Skoda Fabia. 

 

That the VED is unlikely to change is pleasing but, if we use the above figures and assume that there is a reduction of (approximately and for the sake of simplicity) 10% in my MPG, as someone who drives over 35,000 miles a year this is a noticeable cost - circa £40 a month. 

 

I agree that a small change in 0-60 times will be un-noticeable but that's not really what I care about - I want to know if real life in gear acceleration (e.g. when overtaking) will be affected. 

 

Like others posting on here, if my enjoyment of the car that I test drove is affected (including acceleration times) or my costs are impacted (e.g.an increase in VED or reduction in MPG) or the resale value is likely to be impacted then I will expect compensation. 

Edited 16 October, 2015 by Hawk13

[Callam]

I just read the following on another motoring forum which I thought was interesting:-

 

I work at a VAG dealership and we have been told just about the same amount of information as the general public.

The upgrade won't be mandatory, nobody can force you to take your car to the dealership, although VAG are trying to make it as easy as possible to have the update done (meaning they'll pick your car up when you're at work and don't need it and will drop it back off, again, at a time that suits you)

More than likely, yes, it will change the tax band for the worse, but VAG have said they will pay all increases and costs involved, even if the car is out of warranty, for life (so no extra cost to you)

I couldn't tell you about the resale value, it all depends on how quickly the market bounces back now that it has been found that we are not the only manufacturer doing so.. BMW, Merc, Mazda and Mitsubishi were all found to be fiddling the emissions in tests too, but they never seem to make the news..?

I should imagine for the next few months or so all car prices, new and used will carrying on falling as people panic and try to sell their vehicles, but IMO they'll start rising again soon enough!

Sorry for the long post but I hope it's helped a bit

Any more info just ask and I'll try help, if not ring your local dealer!

[Dr Zoidberg]

Given that they are factually incorrect about the tax band changing for the worse, I'll call bull**** on the rest of their claims.

[Agent X20]

Well it'll be interesting to hear how you get on - I'm about to sell my 170tdi SEAT Exeo and on their forum two BMW dealers have turned them down flat on P-EX due to the engine issue!  :|

 

This is real problem, with so many cars about, a positive response   in answer to a question - is this one of the cars that was affected...? will just have many buyers walking away.

 

Happy with my Skoda but with an affected model, if to sell I take a bath....

 

I see Skoda (UK)  simply buying them back at some 'VW agreed' price that you would have normally received when its time to move to the next one.

 

This isn't PPI chaps.. where you were not aware that you had bought it. ( IMPO DYOR WTFDIK!)

[jst_at_home]

If you don't remove NOx (Nitrous Oxides) ....

Just a small point and I appreciate I might be being pedantic but NOx refers to Nitric Oxide and Nitrogen Dioxide.  

 

Nitrous Oxide is the gas used by dentists (for example) for anaesthesia.

[Sagalout]

Firstly let me say that I am not justifying or supporting what VAG have done here. At best very sloppy governance; at worst probably criminal.

I don't doubt that people will feel totally justified in seeking redress but I am less certain about what if anything they will actually get. Guinea pigs with false ears is not the problem here; rabbits with different characteristics is.

 

Question is though are those different characteristics see as significant when tested in law. That was my point in illustrating the single set of results from the US. We may have theories but who really knows until either a case is heard and /or all the facts, about what difference the mods will actually make, are in the public domain.

 

As to resale values. They have never been guaranteed and yep there is bound to be some disturbance until the situation becomes clearer but I dont think it will linger long with VAG. To diesels maybe but that is likely to come from a shift in the politics of subsidies for diesels which are alreay on the horizon. See now there is another confusion for you to ponder. If the political view swings, resale of diesels is impacted. VAG says that is why you can't sell it for a price. Not because of the testing issue.

 

Just saying as devils advocate  

 

Pete

[pipmurray]

I never liked diesels since I bought a BMW 330d years ago and although it went like stink it

sounded like a tracter when cold and smelt like one! Wasn't very reliable either, lots of problems.

Then got an R32 and what a relief to get a petrol motor. A few years later fancied a compact

SUV so got the Yeti. The Yeti is brill but time for a change. Interesting times!

[wavetossed]

Well having read all this I don't think that I have to worry. I've done 70,000 miles on my almost 3 year old fabia greenline 2 and it goes as well as ever. The government aren't going to take away its 0 tax rate and I'm out of warranty anyway. When it comes to sell I might ask a premium for a zero tax car that hasn't been altered by VW to reduce mpg and power. The unaltered engines will clearly be more desirable by those in the know.

[inspector]

i received my letter from skoda uk today telling me that my rapid 1.6tdi 105ps is one of the affected vehicles. being a complete mechanical clutz i wasn't previously concerned as i thought it was just the 2.0 litre engines that were affected!

 

my concern now is with the fix. will it affect the 60mpg i currently get? will it affect the rather excellent perfomance i currently get out of the car? will it affect its resale value? (i personally believe that it already has affected the latter). without jumping too many guns, if any of these become reality what will the redress be?  i chose my car based on a very healthy set of published figures for mpg, cleanliness (hence low road tax) and performance.

 

i love my R and i am totally gutted that it is both an emissions cheat and at the prospect of it now being degraded in some way. perhaps i should start talking to my solicitor this week to make sure the bases are covered and i am prepared for anything nasty looming on the horizon.

 

-----------------------------

 

i would also love to know when v.a.g knew there was a problem? i ask this as a few months before the whole 'defeat' shebbang hit the fan, i received various calls from the local volkswagen dealer from whom i bought a brand new 'up' a couple of years ago (which i still have). they were offering an amazing deal to trade in my car for a brand new one.... i quote the call, "you will seriously kick yourself if you miss this absolute once in a lifetime deal that we can offer confidentially for a very limited time". it sounds perhaps damning in retrospect that they were trying to generate a heap of sales before the bad news broke.

[Rooted]

re post #145, wavetossed,

is your Greenline one that was subject to the VOSA / DVSA Recall for the possible fuel leak?

 

A proper 'Safety Recall',  not a Service Campaign Recall like VW,Skoda, Audi. Seat are doing on emissions 'fixes'.

http://gov.uk/check-if-a-vehicle-has-been-recalled

[voxmagna]

So once the car is over three years old it becomes a case of decide for myself if i want it doing then?

 

That'll do me. I'll see how it goes for people over the first few months then decide whether or not to take mine in.

 

That's where I think I am with our Yeti.  There's a lot of discussion around, what ifs and silence on maintaining the performance characteristics against which I bought my Yeti.  It is no good picking up on a couple of factors like perceived acceleration and economy. When a vehicle is type approved for sale it will go through documented and standardized testing before its performance specification is published. This is repeated for all EU vehicles and enables us as customers to make informed choice decisions on which vehicle we wish to buy. Some may want performance from a larger engine in a higher VED tax band , others biased towards green credentials seemingly offered by smaller engine sizes.  Whatever we think about the (unrealistic?) results they get, they are representative in some way to standardized test methods which are difficult to replicate outside an engine testing laboratory.

 

EU test regimes may be criticized at the moment, but manufacturers can't have their cake and eat it. If they make a retrospective change to engine management software, then the vehicle should be retested and the performance figures forming the basis of the original sale confirmed. There appears to be silence on this at the moment. But once their modification is approved and starts to be carried out, those tests could be done by 3rd parties.

 

Fuel economy and acceleration can only be compared before and after using the original car/engine lab test criteria. Any attempt to argue figures based on real world driving is likely to be flawed and lose the argument. Few talk about torque change, when torque is important for a 4WD used off road and why many probably bought diesel. Nobody wants a 'soggy' 4WD. Similarly, many including ourselves use their TDi Yeti for towing and are happy with present performance. I also have concerns on long term reliability of components like EGR valves which are reported to get stuck and gum up. Could this problem like some of the other emission control devices get worse after the emission fix?

 

I can't help thinking that if these engines could have met ALL the specification requirements without the software bypass then it wouldn't be there. Sales to countries outside USA far exceed those sold elsewhere, so I find it hard to believe the bypass was introduced just to get vehicles licensed for USA.  I shall remain sitting on the fence!

 

One issue I'm concerned about is 'involuntary' changes to our Yeti ECU in the unlikely event it ever came within range of a Dealer.  I am hearing reports that vehicles going in for routine service can have their ECU's reflashed with 'updates'. Has this happened to anybody here and how would you know?

 

[seboni121]

That's where I think I am with our Yeti.  There's a lot of discussion around, what ifs and silence on maintaining the performance characteristics against which I bought my Yeti.  It is no good picking up on a couple of factors like perceived acceleration and economy. When a vehicle is type approved for sale it will go through documented and standardized testing before its performance specification is published. This is repeated for all EU vehicles and enables us as customers to make informed choice decisions on which vehicle we wish to buy. Some may want performance from a larger engine in a higher VED tax band , others biased towards green credentials seemingly offered by smaller engine sizes.  Whatever we think about the (unrealistic?) results they get, they are representative in some way to standardized test methods which are difficult to replicate outside an engine testing laboratory.

 

EU test regimes may be criticized at the moment, but manufacturers can't have their cake and eat it. If they make a retrospective change to engine management software, then the vehicle should be retested and the performance figures forming the basis of the original sale confirmed. There appears to be silence on this at the moment. But once their modification is approved and starts to be carried out, those tests could be done by 3rd parties.

 

Fuel economy and acceleration can only be compared before and after using the original car/engine lab test criteria. Any attempt to argue figures based on real world driving is likely to be flawed and lose the argument. Few talk about torque change, when torque is important for a 4WD used off road and why many probably bought diesel. Nobody wants a 'soggy' 4WD. Similarly, many including ourselves use their TDi Yeti for towing and are happy with present performance. I also have concerns on long term reliability of components like EGR valves which are reported to get stuck and gum up. Could this problem like some of the other emission control devices get worse after the emission fix?

 

I can't help thinking that if these engines could have met ALL the specification requirements without the software bypass then it wouldn't be there. Sales to countries outside USA far exceed those sold elsewhere, so I find it hard to believe the bypass was introduced just to get vehicles licensed for USA.  I shall remain sitting on the fence!

 

One issue I'm concerned about is 'involuntary' changes to our Yeti ECU in the unlikely event it ever came within range of a Dealer.  I am hearing reports that vehicles going in for routine service can have their ECU's reflashed with 'updates'. Has this happened to anybody here and how would you know?

I think flashes would be done during service without you knowing is very likely as its part of the service regime

[Rooted]

Expect things to get better after 'the fix',  Less issues with EGR Valves, DPF Regeneration, & no worse engine efficiency or higher fuel consumption,

& if VW can not achieve that while meeting the required and previously tested and published Emissions, 

then the Fix is not a Fix fit for purpose and they will be replacing lots of vehicles, 

not just modifying them.

Remember to use your consumer rights, and have VWG meet their Corporate Responsibilities.

 

They want the Public's Trust back,

so they need to have customers driving and owning what they bought and had as of September 2015,

not something that can not perform the same or better.