The battery as the new frontier

[Rooted]

I have no idea where SEAT / Cupra have got to with VW Group snagging issues with EV's.

 

Those on here with Enyaq / ID.3 or 4,s might know how Updates, Recall Actions etc are going, or if SEAT / Cupra have managed to produce and deliver cars without the issues.

 

Hopefully in Spanish there is a proper understanding of Vorsprung Durch Technik.   

If you fail with your advances in technology ,then shift your back end and get people in that do know what is required for the drivers / owners purchase.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/499985-dead-12v-battery

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/498588-cant-get-along-with-smart-charging-feature

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/506587-new-enyaq-delivery=gone-wrong

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/505928-no-software-update

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/498977-ota-updates

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/498649-charging-upgrade

 

[Luckypants]

On 09/12/2022 at 10:52, Mr Grump said:

Thank you, the car will be a Cupra Born, I have no idea what 12v battery it has.

 

My car will often sit for a week without being used, so a 12v booster may be a wise investment ?

 

Would it also be wise to do a low rate charge (10a or 16a instead of 32a) on the main battery every few days when not being used ?

Presumably 7 hours of 16a would use half the electricity of 7 hours of 32a ?

 

TBH found it odd when I heard EV have a 12v battery, I expected they would have a converter to run the standard electrics from the main one, maybe its more efficient to have a 12v battery being charged.

I have had a VW ID.4 for the past 18 months, so here's my two penn'orth.
 
There were some issues with early MEB cars (ID.3) discharging the 12V battery. This was fixed by a change in the charging algorithm in ID software version 2.1, so all cars built since early 2021 have the fix. There was a further update to the 12V battery with the VW 2.4 software update (V3.0 on Skoda)  where the 12V battery was replaced for a one with a different chemistry. VW (like many legacy manufacturers) specified their normal 12V battery that is intended to be used for high amp short duration cranking operations for an ICE, where an EV 12V needs to be able to sustain low amp long duration operations such as software updates or controlling pre-heating. This requirement is more akin to a caravan / camper leisure battery than a 'starter battery'. All cars manufactured since March / April will have the new 12V battery.

So with the above said, I have had no problem leaving my car standing for a week (possibly two once or twice?) without the 12V going flat. My car came with the newer 12V charging algorithm but didn't get the new 12V battery until August 2022.

I have never found it necessary to top up the traction battery while the car has been standing, the drain from charging the 12V battery is miniscule compared to the energy stored in the traction battery. 'Vampire Drain' that affected earlier Teslas is not a thing with the MEB cars.

 

HTH

[Rooted]

There is a proposal of a 3 year delay on 10% EU tariffs to help sales of electric cars in the UK.  The EU Commission will approve the plan.

Likely this will make no difference in just 3 years to EV battery production in the UK or the percentage of materials and components from the UK or EU used.

It is a Brexit story as that is how this tariff came about which will just get put back till 2027.

[Rooted]

http://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd180263w7no

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-67064511

 

 

 

Edited 13 March by Rooted

[wyx087]

On 13/11/2017 at 20:26, fabdavrav said:

I'd like to see what the running costs re for years 5 to 12...considering I have my cars that long & longer......& 12 winters up here with me liking winter sports will kill the batteries quicker...

Just want to report after 6.5 years of ownership, car at 9.5 years old. Nissan Leaf EV battery health still at 79%. Running cost still at 2.5p/mile, charged using 7.5p/kWh off-peak. Running cost hasn't changed over the years of ownership, it actually gotten cheaper as I started with standard E7 at 8p/kWh. 

 

I can't find where you say V2G/V2H doesn't work. But I'm using V2H right now, almost 0 consumption from the grid throughout the day. Charge up via solar or overnight, about 2 hours at 5 kW will do. At most, I'd pull 7 + 5 kW overnight. Right now there's 33% EV charging install in my close, no infrastructure upgrade in the area seen. 

 

Also, at South Mimms, there's now 64 EV charging points, 24 of which are 250 kW chargers, others are 120-175 kW chargers. Grid connection probably have been upgraded. 

[J.R.]

How does the kw/mile figure compare with when you bought the vehicle?

[wyx087]

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

How does the kw/mile figure compare with when you bought the vehicle?

Gone down slightly as usage pattern changed. Before COVID, it was commuter car, most drives were 29 miles, 40min. Now it's a school run car, most drives are 3 miles, 10min. Before, lifetime average was averaging just over 4 mi/kWh over the 2-3 years. Now lifetime average is 3.89 mi/kWh. 

 

I suspect a longer time commute at city road speeds would see better economy figure during commute and bigger difference with usage pattern change. 

 

Nissan stops telemetrics and remote control next month. I will no longer get comparable data. So excellent question, now is a good time to gather info. 

[J.R.]

Well despite the battery capacity being slightly lower it does not seem to be using any more energy to do a journey than when it was new which is very encouraging.

 

If I bought a 6.5 year old ICE vehicle it might well do less MPG than when new especially if the oil changes had not been regularly carried out and it has a DPF that might be partially blocked, maybe from the wrong oil being used.

 

All these things are a risk when buying second hand but people in general dont let them out them off, if you were to say this vehicle will have none of these problems (because its an EV), the fuel tank will be a little bit smaller than when it was new but it will still do the same mpg (kw/mile) they would not be put off especially if the cost to replace the shrunken fuel tank would be 3/4 of the value of the vehicle, they would just say, its the right price, it will not go wrong like the other diesel or petrol vehicles we are considering, we will just put up with refuelling it slightly more often and having a little less range.

 

Would your 79% battery self discharge any more than a new one? That might put a different complexion on it, nobody would want to buy a car that leaked fuel, other than that your figures make a compelling argument to buy a second hand EV.

Edited 13 March by J.R.

[Rooted]

It would use the same energy for the various journeys , weather etc if driven the same, same tyres etc.

 

If there is battery degradation, loss of capacity, then you have less power in the battery to use.

But then there can be built in buffers that appear to have some batteries having the same capacity to take in electricity. 

 

What 6.5 years old BEV bought would be quite important really. Or 10 year old one. 

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

Would your 79% battery self discharge any more than a new one? That might put a different complexion on it, nobody would want to buy a car that leaked fuel, other than that your figures make a compelling argument to buy a second hand EV.

It was left for 3 weeks not touched in Dec 2018 as we went away for Xmas. Came back exactly same %.

Last December, as we have V2H, it was left plugged in powering the house and recharging overnight. So can't comment. Generally haven't noticed any self discharge.

 

I think the only car that has vampire drain is Tesla's, where they regularly wake up HV battery to report to the mothership. Everything in Nissan Leaf and other early EV is designed around ICE mentality, if I don't "start" the car, HV battery would not be "started"/connected.

 

 

Some cars have HUGE built-in buffers. Audi's and Ioniq are known to have this. 6 years old Ioniq 28 are still reading 100% SoC.

[Rooted]

The Corsa electric often lost energy from the high voltage (traction) battery when left parked up and not just when cold.

It was messing about and getting updates or revering to factory settings, or locking me out far too often. 

From one day to the next i could not be sure what to expect from it.   It certainly never kept Updates that the techs at Arnold Clark's Service Centre did to it for more than a few days, sometimes not even hours after collecting the car from them. 

[J.R.]

I am talking about self discharge of the cells, the same thing that happend with your battery tools, you charge the battery fully, put it away and when you come to use it in a week, a month, or whatever it has lost some of its charge, towards the end with the older Ni-Cad packs the tool would perform well straight after charging but after a few days only last a couple of minutes before you had to recharge at which point it would do what was expected of it.

 

If this happens on a 6.5 year old battery showing 79% capacity it is like my analogy of putting fuel into a leaking tank.

 

Just as I did as an impoverished 20 year old when I put half filled my Triumph Stag late at night and saw drips leaking out, I could not repair it in the dark, I had to drain the fuel to do so and only had one 5l petrol can, I could not park it outside my bedsit, snow was on the ground and the leak would have been obvious, fire brigade, problems with housing association etc, so I chose to drive around all through the night 😁

[J.R.]

When I buy a second hand EV, and it is a project of mine, I will not be too concerned about loss of storage capacity but loss of charge or charging and running efficiency. I guess with solar power even that is not so important.

[lol-lol]

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

It was left for 3 weeks not touched in Dec 2018 as we went away for Xmas. Came back exactly same %.

Last December, as we have V2H, it was left plugged in powering the house and recharging overnight. So can't comment. Generally haven't noticed any self discharge.

I think the only car that has vampire drain is Tesla's, where they regularly wake up HV battery to report to the mothership. Everything in Nissan Leaf and other early EV is designed around ICE mentality, if I don't "start" the car, HV battery would not be "started"/connected.

Some cars have HUGE built-in buffers. Audi's and Ioniq are known to have this. 6 years old Ioniq 28 are still reading 100% SoC.

 

I have been reading about the Zoe ZE40, apparently it actually has the same battery pack as the ZE50 and has, wait for it, 24% extra battery capacity which could be swapped in if cells went down.  Probably hauling around about 75 kilos of batteries which are not fully plumbed in.

Similar to stories we heard about TESLAs a year or two ago which were allegedly fitted the larger battery packs but software stopped it being accessed. One should be able to tell by weighting the vehicle.  BZ4X with its 71.4 kWh pack but only 64 kWh available but I think Toyota released some in to the useable buffer from the reserve buffer after Bjorn Nyland tore them a new one.   Toyota who led the way with petrol-hybrid with the Prius seem to make such a hash of this BEV launch.

  

T"he battery of the Toyota bZ4X FWD has a total capacity of 71.4 kWh. The usable capacity is 64 kWh. An estimated range of about 210 miles is achievable on a fully charged battery"   https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1564/Toyota-bZ4X-FWD#:~:text=The battery of the Toyota,on a fully charged battery.  

 

 

Edited 14 March by lol-lol

[cheezemonkhai]

Just under 80% from a nearly 10 year old leaf is promising.

 

Very early battery tech, air cooled, packs known to get a bit warm under heavy load and fast charging, small batteries that get cycled more.

 

It suggests more modern cars will be at least 80%, probably more like 90%+ at 10 years.

[lol-lol]

55 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Just under 80% from a nearly 10 year old leaf is promising.

 

Very early battery tech, air cooled, packs known to get a bit warm under heavy load and fast charging, small batteries that get cycled more.

 

It suggests more modern cars will be at least 80%, probably more like 90%+ at 10 years.

 

Passive air cooling hence the Rapidgate issues. Zoe is active air cooling ie fans and issues I have heard of if the ambient air temp is in the 40s or battery to low temp ie zero and below means slower charging on DC as BMS will throttle the changing Amps to protect the traction battery.

SOC even after a hundred or two hundred thousand kilometers is pretty good especially if one only occasional DC charged at 125 A and mainly AC charged at 16 or 32 A whether Single or 3 phase. BMS has quite protective setting in Renaults up until now but new R5 sounds quite high charge rate ie a high C rate.

 

[wyx087]

52 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I have been reading about the Zoe ZE40, apparently it actually has the same battery pack as the ZE50 and has, wait for it, 24% extra battery capacity which could be swapped in if cells went down.  Probably hauling around about 75 kilos of batteries which are not fully plumbed in.

Similar to stories we heard about TESLAs a year or two ago which were allegedly fitted the larger battery packs but software stopped it being accessed. One should be able to tell by weighting the vehicle. 

That's awesome, you shouldn't see degradation because it would all be in the buffers. 

Yes, I seem to recall they were Model S 75D that are actually software limited 90 packs. Can even pay for an unlock. 

 

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

When I buy a second hand EV, and it is a project of mine, I will not be too concerned about loss of storage capacity but loss of charge or charging and running efficiency. I guess with solar power even that is not so important.

Self-discharge is usually not an issue for Li-on batteries. I have an Android smart phone in the Leaf for reading Leafspy, I charge that up to 60%, turn it back on a few weeks later still 60%. I get really old NiCd are a problem, every time I want to use my many-years old drill, it needs to be charged. 

"Vampire drain" is a thing for Teslas and Corsa it seems, but that is the in-car computer using the battery to do stuff. 

 

I think the thing to watch out for as cells age is internal resistance. This shouldn't affect cells in open circuit. This will affect maximum charging speed, in theory will generate more heat. Should also affect max discharge (acceleration). Though I don't believe slow AC charging will take more energy, because Tesla in-vehicle service mode uses AC charging to measure degradation. (dumps remaining as heat, charge 0 to 100% measure charged energy). 

 

At 7.5p/kWh and solar, efficiency isn't top of my list of concerns. In fact, using V2H keeps electronics in the Leaf awake, that uses around 200w by my calculation. It's very far from ideal and quite wasteful compared to a proper home battery solution. But as you say, free solar. Also keeps 12v health by floating it at 12.8v all the time. 

I'm sure future cars will improve with more and more V2G/V2H adoption. 

[fabdavrav]

Considering this thread is 90 pages long & I don't bother with it any more why did you go back & quote comment I made back in November 2017yr some 6+yrs ago??

 

TBH thats some trolling digging up a comment that old!

 

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, fabdavrav said:

Considering this thread is 90 pages long & I don't bother with it any more why did you go back & quote comment I made back in November 2017yr some 6+yrs ago??

 

TBH thats some trolling digging up a comment that old!

 

I remembered that you wanted to see some data after a few years. Hopefully that was helpful in updating your view of EV's.

 

Why do you consider this a trollling behaviour when I have fresh data to share?

[fabdavrav]

18 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I remembered that you wanted to see some data after a few years. Hopefully that was helpful in updating your view of EV's.

 

Why do you consider this a trollling behaviour when I have fresh data to share?

 

 

Digging up a comment I made 6+yrs ago I consider trolling.....or stalking!...

 

Its not like my comment was a detailed mechanical how-to guide & you're querying how I did something as you're following the guide & having problems...

 

 

My view of EVs hasn't changed...I won't be getting one any time soon...my 9yr old MK7 Golf does very well for me!

[Rooted]

^^^  Guff,

it is the subject of the thread @fabdavrav and i remember posts, and the ones you drag up or use to. ,

[fabdavrav]

8 minutes ago, Rooted said:

^^^  Guff,

it is the subject of the thread @fabdavrav and i remember posts, and the ones you drag up or use to. ,

 

Whatever.....

[Rooted]

Exactly.  Whatever. 

 Winter sports & BEV,s is an issue in Scotland or actually proper cold places and where there are long distances to travel.

6 + years on and now in Scotland with newer BEV,s there are plenty managing even with the crap charging infrastructure in the hills and glens and places people are going in winter. 

 

Have bigger electric car and bigger battery and for many it is no issue in Scotland.    Have a small battery car and it is pretty poor.