EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 1

[Rooted]

Obviously nobody has a scooby what will be will be.

 

So just as well to carry on as you were.  Votes been done and counted, no going back now, A BREXIT the UK will go. 

[KenONeill]

Or not; it appears that a parliamentary vote may be required to go any further:-

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-senior-conservative-mps-seize-on-a-forgotten-government-pledge-to-let-parliament-decide-the-a7366316.html

[Scribbler]

Or not; it appears that a parliamentary vote may be required to go any further:-

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-senior-conservative-mps-seize-on-a-forgotten-government-pledge-to-let-parliament-decide-the-a7366316.html

 

If the will of the people is not respected and Parliament decide to not trigger article 50 then we are no more a democracy than Kim Jong un's North Korea. Can you honestly  see this referendum decision not being upheld and would you like to live in a country where the will of the majority is overruled by MP's even if it may or may-not support your own personal opinion. If the boot was on the other foot and people had voted to remain and the right wing government said we are ignoring the decision i would be incensed even as a leaver.

[swedishskoda]

Some of us haven't completely discarded the idea that a Parliament reflects (albeit imperfectly) the will of the people, at least as long as parliamentary elections are free...

As for whether the Brexit referendum is decisive or advisory: maybe it's time to draft a British (or Anglo-Welsh?) constitution, solving this issue once and for all?

Edited 18 October, 2016 by swedishskoda

[Rooted]

?

Has this UK Government with the leader Theresa May MP decided now that the referendum result might not be binding?

Is there some link to that press release from who ever announced that in October 2016?

[@Lee]

The referendum isn't legally binding and was only advisory.

 

 

There are two types of referendum that have been held by the UK Government, pre-legislative (held before proposed legislation is passed) and post-legislative (held after legislation is passed). To date the previous three UK-wide referendums in 1975, 2011 and 2016 were all post-legislative. Referendums are not legally binding, so legally the Government can ignore the results; for example, even if the result of a pre-legislative referendum were a majority of "No" for a proposed law, Parliament could pass it anyway, because parliament is sovereign.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

Some might like to read the beginning of that also. The bit about 'Parliamentary Sovereignty'.

[TonyB1965]

Some of us haven't completely discarded the idea that a Parliament reflects (albeit imperfectly) the will of the people, at least as long as parliamentary elections are free...

As for whether the Brexit referendum is decisive or advisory: maybe it's time to draft a British (or Anglo-Welsh?) constitution, solving this issue once and for all?

Parliament already voted to give us the choice, they also told us in their own literature (that they sent to all of us) they would honour the will of the people, we voted out, that's it. Anything other than that will have me out on the streets along with millions of others.

[TonyB1965]

The referendum isn't legally binding and was only advisory.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

Some might like to read the beginning of that also. The bit about 'Parliamentary Sovereignty'.

Parliament voted to give us the choice and told us they would honour it, wikipedia isn't going to cut it I'm afraid.

[SkodaVRS1963]

What will being out of the EU in 2019 gain us - Control of our laws and policies. The rest could be bad or good.

What will being in the EU in 2019 gain us - Honestly, who knows with the way things are, but it could be bad or good.

I don't see how people can be certain we'd have been better in than out or will be.

Certainly after the threats from the EU, if there was another vote, I'd be strongly in favour of leaving as opposed to on the fence this time.

 

When the brown smelly stuff hits the fan will be the time that a country (Greece in all probability) defaults on its debt repayments.

 

Then everyone else in the club is going to have to dig, not just a bit but, a lot, lot deeper into their pockets.  Because Greece owes over 300 BILLION euros.  No, that's not a typo, they really DO owe over 300 BILLION euros.

 

Trust me, you'd rather be an outside observer when that happens.

 

And it WILL happen.

Edited 18 October, 2016 by SkodaVRS1963

[SkodaVRS1963]

Parliament already voted to give us the choice, they also told us in their own literature (that they sent to all of us) they would honour the will of the people, we voted out, that's it. Anything other than that will have me out on the streets along with millions of others.

 

The Tottenham riots of 2011 will be like a church village fete in comparison to what will be unleashed upon the Establishment.

 

There's a sadistic part of me that wants the Government to try and wriggle out of it because I'll be out on the streets with, as you say, tens of millions of others.

 

As Dirty Harry might say to Theresa May: "well.......do you feel lucky, punk?"

[SkodaVRS1963]

The referendum isn't legally binding and was only advisory.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

Some might like to read the beginning of that also. The bit about 'Parliamentary Sovereignty'.

 

You didn't just cite Wikipedia as an authority on this.

 

Did you?

 

Schoolboy error.

[@Lee]

 

David Cameron’s Government agreed in 2010 that referendums “cannot be legally binding in the UK… because of the sovereignty of Parliament”.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-referendums-are-only-advisory-says-group-of-tory-mps-a3371716.html

[TonyB1965]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-referendums-are-only-advisory-says-group-of-tory-mps-a3371716.html

Good look with wriggling out of a promise made to the British people with their own literature, what could possibly go wrong.......

[TonyB1965]

The Tottenham riots of 2011 will be like a church village fete in comparison to what will be unleashed upon the Establishment.

 

There's a sadistic part of me that wants the Government to try and wriggle out of it because I'll be out on the streets with, as you say, tens of millions of others.

 

As Dirty Harry might say to Theresa May: "well.......do you feel lucky, punk?"

There are a number of people significantly under-estimating the strength of feeling on this if they try to wriggle out of it. They're too busy repeating the ridiculous meme that Brexiteer's are all regretting voting out, well good luck with that one is all I can say.

[@Lee]

Let's say for a moment that the Govt. did use it's powers of law and ruled that the referendum was advisory and the MP's (who have been voted in BY the people)

voted against it, would you condone violence or civil disobedience?

[Rooted]

Lets hope not,  but someone or many someones as EU Citizens could maybe go to the EU Court of human rights or some other set up and demand that their Government recognise the wish of the majority that had a Vote in the British Referendum.

[@Lee]

'The government is clueless. I don’t think there is really a strategy.'

http://uk.businessinsider.com/former-ubs-chief-economist-george-magnus-on-brexit-and-the-government-2016-10?r=US&IR=T

[@Lee]

Lets hope not,  but someone or many someones as EU Citizens could maybe go to the EU Court of human rights or some other set up and demand that their Government recognise the wish of the majority that had a Vote in the British Referendum.

I think there's already things along those lines happening.

[SkodaVRS1963]

Let's say for a moment that the Govt. did use it's powers of law and ruled that the referendum was advisory and the MP's (who have been voted in BY the people)

voted against it, would you condone violence or civil disobedience?

Yes yes and yes again.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Lets hope not,  but someone or many someones as EU Citizens could maybe go to the EU Court of human rights or some other set up and demand that their Government recognise the wish of the majority that had a Vote in the British Referendum.

There would be a certain irony in people who hate the EU, using EU legislation to demand to leave.

Much like UKIP MEPs taking the money then refusing to do their job properly.

[@Lee]

You didn't just cite Wikipedia as an authority on this.

 

Did you?

 

Schoolboy error.

https://www.cnet.com/news/study-wikipedia-as-accurate-as-britannica/

 

next you'll tell me CNET's unreliable and we'll be stuck in some kind of eternal loop paradox..............

[gadgetman]

I voted leave and i would actually like a rerun of the vote. For the opposite reason though im pretty confident it would be a higher majority leave vote. (I have good form, I was right predicting the Scottish independence Referendum, National and the EU Referendum result against the majority of so called opinion on here with your yougov polls) etc.

As i see it its the only way to silence you deluded re moaners. I would be happy to got to the ballot box again, infact this time i would do postal vote for convenience.

 

Remain was always the safe vote you knew exactly what you were getting some were happy with this many were not but most wanted change but were scared of the consequences.

In light of the EU's recent post brexit attitude, threats and Rhetoric, EU political shift and threat to the German banking system verging on collapse. I would say those that were scared into voting remain might think this time that its worth a punt and might be the safer option. I certainly can't think of anyone who regrets voting leave unless they did so on a whim. 

 

 

At the moment, yes leave would probably win by a much larger margin.

 

However once we're in the midst of the Article 50 negotiations, and companies make their choices on staying or going, I could actually see a strong tip to remain when reality bites as to what brexit REALLY means on jobs, family finances, interest rates etc etc.

 

At the moment nothing has happened, and might not.  Until May stands at Downing Street and formally announces it's been done, it's business as usual.  As if the vote never happened.

[TonyB1965]

There would be a certain irony in people who hate the EU, using EU legislation to demand to leave.

Much like UKIP MEPs taking the money then refusing to do their job properly.

The European Court of Human Rights is not an EU body, it is made of the 47 nations of the European Council. This is a common misconception and just highlights how little people know what the EU actually is. This also highlights a deception of the Remain campaign, that we would lose Human Rights legislation if we left the EU. Britain was actually at the forefront of the creation of Human Rights in Europe long before it joined the EEC.

[Scribbler]

Let's say for a moment that the Govt. did use it's powers of law and ruled that the referendum was advisory and the MP's (who have been voted in BY the people)

voted against it, would you condone violence or civil disobedience?

 

MPs were democratically elected as you say but on a range of campaign issues. (their campaign budgets and union support might bring into question the legitimacy of this) . However seeing as their own personal interests may be conflicting and its such a polarizing issue as this then you can't use their remit as basis for such a massive decision. This is the whole f**king point of a referendum to guide the politicians on actioning our collective will. To ignore this would be catastrophic i would be getting militant and thats not in my nature but Rage against the machine would be cranked up to 11 and i would be protesting vigorously shall we say.

[Scribbler]

There would be a certain irony in people who hate the EU, using EU legislation to demand to leave.

Much like UKIP MEPs taking the money then refusing to do their job properly.

 

Not this again they did their job perfectly infact i can't think of an elected body having such a successful success ratio. There remit was go to Brussels / Strasbourg and highlight the corruption hypocrisy and general fraud that exists within the EU and convince the UK to leave and run its own affairs. You can only do this by doing what the other nations do and line your pockets and make a mockery of it. UKIP are irrelevant now though and should fade into obscurity. I don't wish to see that sort of politics ever again. Lets not make this stupid point about UKIP not working in the interests of the EU again shall we its moronic.